You know, I am not sure you can please everyone. Always going to be people whining somewhere. 17% is better than nothing.

While the number of 8 pts. increased by 17% the 1.5 buck harvest decreased by 53% and we now have 93,000 fewer successful buck hunters than we did before ARs were implemented.

Who wants to kill a 1.5 year old deer? Not very sporting. I kinda like to have a challenge. 1.5 year old is just starting his life. Not hard to fool one.

In 2001 159K PA hunters harvested a 1.5 buck and a lot more PA hunters would have been more than happy to harvest a 1.5 buck. Furthermore, a lot of PA hunters who harvest a 2.5 buck don't even know they harvested a 2.5 buck because it is just a basket racked 5 or 6 pt. and over 18 % of the 2.5 buck aren't even AR legal.

I guess PA boys need to start learning how to hunt and quit the freakin deer drives they so dearly love.

Wait until those 18% they are 3.5 year old, and now you got yourself a deer and a good challenge

You may want a challenge and that is fine with me, but the vast majority of PA hunters aren't trophy hunters and are happy with any legal buck and don't give a rip about how old it might be. Furthermore,a lot of those 2.5+ buck are harvested by rifle hunters who just happen to be at the right spot at the right time and are no more of a challenge than a 1,5 buck.

Thats a sad state of affairs then for Pa hunters if they just want to pop a baby deer. I know for a fact, you do not speak for many PA hunters.

I know plenty of hunters who like to hunt. And are successful.

Your idea is akin to growing a garden and pulling up your vegs before they mature. Who wants that.

No you don't, you just think you do. How many PA hunters agree with your position compared to how many hunters agree with me? PA hunters are harvesting a higher percentage of our male deer as BB than before ARs. What can you cite to show that more hunters agree with you?

I should have just kept my mouth shut as I intended. If anyone has any further questions about hunting in the "northeast," please just message bluebird2 and be done with it.

with permission you can hunt near any OCCUPIED building.archery is 50 yds without permission and gun is 150 yds without permission in pa.

Common sense. I realize you don't understand what that means. Most I know are bowhunters.

Just you sitting here day in day out spouting that AR is wrong is not going to change anything.


I got to ask you, what have you accomplished with your hundreds of posts on this? Can you cite any changes? I mean your a grown man, and sitting here crying the blues about nothing.

Common sense doesn't tell you most hunters agree with you, that is just your biased opinion.

One thing I accomplished is that the PGC and DCNR have admitted that they present the data in such a way that supports their position and withhold data like the yearly changes in deer density in each WMU. They also admitted that they aren't doing any research to determine the effects of ARs.

Wowzer. :groupwave:You a grown man got the PGC to admit all that. goodness, what is next? You might find the cure for cancer with your skills.

My PA hunting study# 504EATCRAP showed that if you interpolate the data from the tangent of the intergral of said samples in the extensive study by my group, that more hunters in PA agree that its best to let deer grow and actually hunt deer, hense >2.5 year old deer. So your wrong again.

I see you are another member of the Bluebird fan club. Do you believe if the PGC repealed ARs for 2011 ,most PA hunters would let BB and 1.5 buck walk? If you do you are living in fantasy land.

Honestly if that is fact, then problem is not with PGC, but with the hunters. Thats just freakin pitiful.

BB2, you just really need to stop and take a look at your life. A real hard look. And ask yourself what are you doing with it.

Some so called hunters just can not adapt to change. They sit in the same spot year after year and expect a deer to walk by them, and when that does not happen they scream bloody murder. Its a good thing they dont have to hunt for survival or they would starve. Most of the whiners cant grasp that deer hunting is a privlege and not a goverment entitlement.

Whether you realize it or not, harvesting BB is an important part of any statewide DMP. Furthermore, passing on all 1.5 buck would only reduce the sustainable harvest and make hunting even worse.

Why would you even care what I am doing with my life. I am retired and cut 12 -15 chords of firewood/ yr while managing our woodlot. I have a big garden and lots of raspberries and chestnut trees ,so I am a happy camper.

No, your not. Your a very sad person.

You better keep that management secret to yourself. Because the guys in southern TX and QDM does not know it.

Are you a professional or just an internet mind reader? I'll admit I am not happy with the DMP , but there is a lot more to life than just deer hunting.


If they don't know it ,why don't you tell them so they can get it right for a change.:kiss:

I came on this late, but there seems to be a lot of reference to Gary Alt. Has anybody even heard a peep out of that guy for over a year? My neighbor said Alt really did a lot for the bears in Pa., but dropped the ball with the deer herd. I asked my neighbor what Alt did for the bears and he did not know. I can ask anybody what Alt did for the bears and they won't know. Gary Alt was a fraud. Alt ran around darting bears in the butt having a good old time on hunters money. As far as I know, He did not change any seasons or limits on bear when he was in charge. Alt did accept credit for the increase in bear population, which was spilling over from New Jersey and increasing because of the housing going up in the Poconos area. Gary Alt, there is a name you don't hear any more, and that is a good thing.

alt has forestry background.that is where he came from not deer background.his job was to PUSH THE AGENDA TO REDUCE DEER TO VERY LOW NUMBERS.the small groups that have influence in harrisburg,pa are behind this.your AUDOBON,NATURES CONSERVANCY,QDMA,FOREST CERTIFICATION THING,DCNR,PGC ,CERTAIN SPORTSMANS CLUBS ARE BEHIND THIS.

look at list of people that started all this.very few if any are hunters.all hand picked by certain groups with INFLUENCE in harrisburg,pa.
it goes right back to MONEY.forest certification the politicians feel will increase the price of timber.that is what is behind it.no doubt in my mind that insurance co. were complaining also about the deer in meetings with their reps.

USP lost their case against the PGC.SOthings are going to get worst on number of deer you will have to hunt unless hunters stop shooting doe.
did you know that they stated that 50% of the antlerless doe killed are FAWNS THIS YEAR.
that is just plain awful what we have become as hunters.
meat and filling the licenses at any cost is driving this.
very sad indeed.......

How do you know that 50% of the antlerless harvests were fawns,since the PGC hasn't released the harvest data for 2010?

Has anybody else seen the new point rule, instead of 4pts it's going to be (3 up) rule. 3 points on one side, not counting the eye guards. I also heard the the state is going to 3 more mangement units to the no doe hunting till the first saturday.

Gary Alt was a DNR Biologist here in WV, before moving to PA for the bear management program. gary was instrumental, from what I recall, in the successful turkey re-stocking project. What he's done up there, I don't know.....

gary alt was mouth piece to reduce deer,that is all here in pa.the groups that he belonged too are same ones that want deer reduced for reasons. 1 is FOREST CERTIFICATION.too get the timber prices up they had to show to WORLD that something they would do will make wood BETTER.
so they felt reducing deer would be a easy one to show the WORLD that it wood make WOOD better.
you could see wood in store someday saying PA MOUNTAIN WOOD.

that is all that was behind it.then other groups gary belonged too have agenda also.bird groups,non hunting groups,hikers etc all are affecting what happens.
here is quote that gary made too me,he said,SPROUL LET LITTLE FAWNS GO AND SHOOT THE OLD DOE.
first we thought he was thinking of the poor fawns too grow up.
lone did we know that he has reason to say that.THE OLD DOE HAVE 2 FAWNS,YOUNG DOE DONT HAVE FAWN OR JUST ONE.

see how you are fibbed too.i have nothing against gary alt only he is mouth piece to reduce deer.he is and was a active member of groups that want deer gone.

Eveland's still a fake
 

So sproulman. It's been over a month now. Are you yet able to substantiate any of Evelands claims yet? I haven't seen or heard hide nor hair of this guy lately. What's up with dat? He didn't seem to convince the judge any either and actually may have helped get the case thrown out due to lack of any expert testimoney or actual data. He didn't show up at the game com. meeting either. Why is this guy so quiet if he knows so much?
Please let us know what you've found that give him any credibility.

The following quote proves beyond a doubt that the DCNR blackmailed the PGC into reducing the herd so DCNR could get their forests certified.



"
BOF RESPONSE: “The Department of Conservation and Natural Resources and the Bureau of Forestry have taken several significant steps to address the overabundant deer herd on State Forests and State Parks and throughout the Commonwealth. Secretary DiBerardinis has raised the issue to its highest level in state government and has personally assumed leadership on moving the issue forward. To that end, the Secretary placed a moratorium on the use of DCNR grant monies for use in purchasing State Game lands stating that he could not,in good conscience, help fund projects with an agency that is preventing him from meeting his public trust responsibilities of managing DCNR lands sustainably.

The Secretary was invited to meet with the President of the Pennsylvania Game Commissioners, Pennsylvania Game Commissioners, and Pennsylvania Game Commission (PGC) Executive staff to address the deer and other resource management issues. As a result of the meeting, the Secretary believes that the
deer issue and the department’s perspectives are receiving serious attention and consideration by the Game Commissioners and PGC Executive staff. Due to this open dialogue, the Secretary has lifted the moratorium on the use of DCNR grant funds for potential PGC acquisitions. The Department has submitted written statement to the PGC for consideration. Subsequent meetings with Commissioners and PGC Executive Staff are scheduled. In addition, the Department has developed an Action Plan that will prioritize and guide the department’s efforts over the next several years. White-tailed deer is clearly identified as one of the top priorities for department activities.
Copies of the DCNR Action Plan outlining the department’s concerns, strategies and objectives are available.
One of the current tools available to help alleviate some deer pressure on State Forest lands is DMAP (Deer Management Assistance Program). The Bureau of Forestry used DMAP aggressively on State Forest lands. The BOF enrolled over 700,000 acres in the program for this hunting season. This resulted in over
20,000 coupons issued for the harvest of antlerless deer."

One of the Commissioners denied DCNR had any influence on the PGC DMP ,but when I provided that quote he had no response.

"Are you yet able to substantiate any of Evelands claims yet? I haven't seen or heard hide nor hair of this guy lately. What's up with dat? He didn't seem to convince the judge any either and actually may have helped get the case thrown out due to lack of any expert testimoney or actual data."
J. Eveland did not provide any testimony in this case, so he played no roll in the USP loosing .

heard nothing.yes we did lose the deer thing .i expected that as you cant seem to beat system.right now we have petitions out to stop doe hunting .most likely will mean nothing even tho hunters are signing every one i put out.

HUNTERS WANT DOE SEASON STOPPED IN WMU2G.

Easiest way to show you want doe season stopped is to stop buying doe tags. You can have the signature of every hunter in 2g, but when time comes around, if they buy a doe tag then the state will ignore the petition because they know you really want to keep killing doe.

Or you can buy the tags then throw them in the garbage. If (i.e) you MU has 10k doe tags and only 4k is filled, the state would have to find out what is going on. If you buy a tag and pitch it, you guarentee that 1 doe doesn't get taken but not buying guarentees a thoughtless meater hunter a slaughter of unbought tags.

IF YOU HAVE 10 HUNTERS IN ROOM, 5 WILL SAY, i am still buying a doe tag.next 2 will say, I BUY MINE BUT DONT USE IT.
next 3 will not buy them and then in COMES THE NEW JERSEY HUNTERS and buy them all that are left.

this is what we do in our family, throw them away here in wmu2g.
pgc knew we were doing this so,THEY ALLOWED HUNTERS TO KILL AS HIGH AS 4 DOE A SEASON.
this is how they beat us.

i know hunters in 1 family that three of them got 15 deer in one season. 15. 4 doe each and buck.

now we dont see 15 deer in season .

Petitions to stop legal hunting??? Perhaps you should partner with PETA! :bash:

you have been fair in past,not like KNOTHEAD rsb ,so i wont get smart with you.

usp made up petition. i am LIFE MEMBER of usp. we started the usp with don clemmer as founder around 1983.
sadly don died last year,real nice guy that was BOOED with me at bucktail high school by farmers,dcnr,pgc ,qdma,audobon WANNABEES.

i dont agree with everything usp wants. i am big AR fan ,they are not.
we have very few deer here in western clinton county.i did get 10 point the first day but was only deer we saw.4 gangs hunted about 6 miles by highway and saw 2 doe which they shot 1.
this is in great area on feed.we had MORE BEARS in this area than deer.

rwj, something is wrong and its just to MUCH doe killing.
i agree that forest is not great on feed,the BROWSE.until dcnr cuts the trees that are shading ground, nothing will get much better.

but we are told we can handle 11dpsm. if 100 yds is mile that is used, THATS A LOT OF DEER.
but truth is ,i use my truck speedometer.not DPSM thing.if there is over 10 deer in say 5 miles by highway ,that is lot today.

those same areas held over 20 deer per highway mile.many miles NO DEER,none. no squirreals,grouse,rabbits,turkeys.yes, you could say feed, i say WAY TO MUCH HUNTING.
look at what is happening now.
mentoured thing is joke,adults are shooting the bucks and dont have to use tag.
crews are shooting at ANY buck as long as kids are in crew.

what is kid learning there.butcher shops said,QUOTE SPROUL KIDS DONT EVEN KNOW GUN THEY USED TO GET THE BUCKS.i will let you draw your own conclusion on that one.
all this is putting more pressure on what deer are left.its not allowing the AR to work as good as it could.
i only brought this up that we cant have deer with all pressure etc that is put on what is left.

thats why the doe season HAS to be closed if we want to see the deer come back somewhat.
if not, its going to continue to get worst and license sales go down.dcnr IS AFTER the pgc to merge. why not, with all millions in timber and GAS ,millions of dollars in gas.USP is fighting merging the pgc.strange,hated USP backing the PGC on not merging.
dont think for 1 minute that PGC is not going to make millions on gas.DCNR wants that money and JOBS too.


no way anyone would approve increase in pgc license fees if hunting is not good.
only HUNTINGPA group of wannabees would want it.

sorry i got off a little .rwj,other than your friends over on HUNTINGPA there are not many that LIKE pgc/dcnr/audobon/qdma at this time.petitions are filling up.

you are fair person and so is johnw .
dont let HUNTINGPA group that is ONE SIDED and will chase anyone off that awful forum that in anyway disagrees with the TEAM PLAYER way of thinking.

take care sproul

WCO R.W.J is right. there is no reason to ban doe hunting in 2G for 2 years. In 2009 hunters harvested 1.26 buck for every 1.02 antlerless ,which means the herd is already being allowed to increase in 2g. Furthermore the 2010 antlerless allocations were lower than in 2009 ,which means the herd should increase even more.

The USP lost their case because they made extreme claims that they couldn't support. Continuing to make extreme claims will accomplish nothing.

DCNR is not looking for a Merger, I am not sure where you heard that but please post a link to any proof of that.

If you know of someone violationg the mentored yourh hunt regulations I suggest you turn them in.

A petition to stop legal hunting is right out of the Anti playbook.

i heard about it on HUNTINGPA .it said second part of year corbett could look at it but first part is going to be turnpike.

i believe you have to know what is happening with mentoured. also you SHOULD KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH THE ADULTS SHOOTING SMALL BUCKS WITH 16 UNDER KIDS IN GANGS.
did you know some carry hacksaws in pocket in case the buck is even too small.cut horns off to get it too the truck.

without a WCO in western clinton county a LOT is going on.i fought hard to get one on but its not going to happen.this is happening all over state.you think for 1 minute that crews are looking at points if you have kid along under 16.those radios on coats are not to say hello and most have a system that you cant scrabble,yes radios they use you cant hear as wco as its scrabbled or not normal channels that most can hear, THAT A BUCK IS DOWN and come tag it.
even knothead rsb agreed years ago that it was happening and he heard it on scanner.but now they got smart, THEY DONT YELL BUCK DOWN COME TAG IT,now its short words.


is the above 2 things happening. YES THEY ARE.as for turning them in,if i see it ,i will .
trust me, these young kids are NOT in woods when this happens and others ARE using kids to shoot the buck under 3 points.
nothing i can do if you think it is not happening.

i do give DENNYF credit over on HUNTINGPA forum for at least trying to keep the WANNABEES under control.thats improvement ,maybe they should let the members back that were banned because they disagreed with those WANNABEES.

bb, even with reduction in doe tags ,MOST ARE NOT FILLING THEM.give report on how many tags were filled not filled.if doe are increasing,why are tags not being filled.
heck, they have from sept to jan to fill the tags.

what extreme claims did the USP make?

Most doe tags aren't filled every year, in every WMU in the state. It usually takes 3 or 4 doe tags for every antlerless deer harvested. The USP claimed the herd had been annihilated the and that the herd had been reduced to unsustainable levels. Both claims are extreme when you consider that we still harvested over 300K deer in 2009. When you are in court words have specific meanings and when you make claims that you can't support with independent facts, you undermine your credibility and your chances of winning your case.

The USP would have had a much stronger case if they would have just compared the claims Alt made while selling the plan to the results nine years later ,using the PGC's own data. Personal opinions are meaningless in court ,unless you are declared and expert witness by the court and the USP didn't provide any expert witnesses.