moosemike

Very true.

DougE

No one siad there isn't enough food for a couple of deer.The deer have impacted the habitat to the point where it doesn't take many to continually degrade it.During periods of mild winters like we were faced with most years throughout the 80's-90's the deer can spread out and untilize more of it.They'll still survive but the habitat will get worse and the health of the herd and every other typr of wildlife will suffer.If you were seeing 30-40 deer a day,that's devistating to the habitat.

While acorns are an improtant food,relying on a mast crop is poor management.First of all,only about 40% of our forests have oak trees and mast crops are not reliable.On top of that,they only provide a food source for a few months out of the year.Deer need browse during winter and not everything that's growing out there is browse.

gunchamp

At what point do we say that the heard is small enough and its time to back off the reduction? What do you do about areas like mine where its tough to find some deer droppings even when we walk for miles? The forest seems to have a ton of undergrowth coming up now but the deer are few and far between. What happens when the heard gets so thin that coyotes and a bad winter could devastate what is left of the heard? For the point that if you dont stay with hunting because of lack of deer, thats a tough sale. I love the outdoors and will always hunt no matter what. When you are trying to get a child out in the freezing cold and they cant get that warm sensation you get when you see deer, that pretty tough on the kid. If I would not have seen any deer when I first started, who knows if I would have stuck with it. My youngest brother came in when the hunting started to suck and he quit. He always said that it stunk to be freezing and not see a thing. I just dont understand the guys that say deal with it or you shouldnt be hunting. Last I checked, hunting is about finding and harvesting game. Its not about sitting and staring at small trees that are growing now that there are no deer. How do the deer get buy in all the other good hunting states? This is the same as fishing in a pond that has no fish in it. Would you be interested in doing that?

gunchamp

DougE, I do agree with some of what you're saying. The problem is, is that the pgc did not do their job on monitering the deer harvest. Not enough deaths were acounted for such as cars, predators, poachers and weather. I was all for the reduction at the start but after I saw what it turned into, I changed my mind. Its not right to spend the amount of time in the woods hunting and scouting as I do and not see the deer. We use scouting cameras and scout till dark many evening and mornings. Hunting is a major part of my families life. We tried switching spots and trust me when I say we are not lazy hunters. We walk for hours to get to deep spots and have walked from road to road with many miles in between to try and find new spots. The deer are just not there and its absolutely over harvesting from the failed plans of the pgc. I dont need the old days to come back but it would be nice to be able to see some deer again!

DougE

The point at which you say the heard has been reduced enough isn't that dificult.When you start to see prefered regeneration starting to make it past the deer,you can stabilze the reductions.When you see less impact on species that deer really shouldn't be eating you can stabilize.When the need to fence the deer out of timber sales decreases substantially,you can stabilize the herd instead of reducing it.

The forests may have a ton of undergrowth but unless it's species that are beneficial to the wildlife,it does more harm then good.Too many deer can and have wiped out the prefered species in many places.Non-prefered junk soon takes over and makes the habitat even worse.Do you know what's actually growing in these areas you're talking about?

Hunting is about finding game,not just finding an open patch of timber and expecting to see dozens of deer by noon on the first day.There isn't a WMU in the state when a guy can't find decent hunting with very little effort.

DougE

The PGC doesn't know exactly how many deer are in Pa and never will.In fact,no state does.That's not important.What's important is studying trends.They have a very good idea what the harvest trends are from year to year and they're doing exactly what needed to be done.

Exactly where do you hunt?

gunchamp

I hunt in a very large area running from 865 up out of bellwood over to rt 36 off of buchhorn. I also hunt in the glendale area(prince gallitzin). Trust me when I tell you that I dont just walk into open woods and plop down. My family including myself have harvested many deer through the years. We spend alot of the spring and summer glassing feilds and walking deeper to try and find hidden hot spots. A lower section where we used to hunt went bad about 8 years ago and the ferns took over. The deer were gone. So we spent a couple of years scouting deeper and found deer everywhere. The deer moved to an area that had less pressure and better feed. We have had to do this a couple of times and had great success in doing this. We are not able to get results now. I am seeing feed everywhere now but not seeing the deer. I see turkys, bear, coyotes, grouse, and just about anything else you could find in this area. Its not jusy the areas I hunt, its all over. Friends that have private land with food plots are not seeing the deer. I take my daughter spotting and most of the time, do not see a thing. I just dont see how anyone can not come to the conclusion that PA in the central mountains and north have been overharvested. I know there are deer eveywhere in pitt and philly area. One of my brothers live there and there is not many hunters. I understand that things need to be kept in check for the habitats sake but not to the point of almost deer exstinction in some areas.

4evrhtn

I agree with you Gunchamp and I also agree and will not argue with alot of what DougE stated. However, I am one of those guys who manages private property for turkey, grouse, wood**** as well as deer. They have a food source all year round, we do selective timbering and replanting of preferred species and I don't need an exclosure to prevent the destruction of that young preferred browse growing because there aren't enough deer left in my area to inflict any noticeable damage to my growing corn, soybean, oats, trees, etc. The PaGC destroyed the deer population in my area of 4D and severely hurt them in my area of 4C. I don't want to see 30 deer a day at any given place and I don't expect to, what I do expect for my son is an enjoyable experience seeing wildlife other than bear. How much food does a 300 pound bear eat in a day? Last year I saw more bear than I did deer and that is no word of a lie. With that said you should understand I also do alot of walking and scouting, I am not lazy, I am not Stupid or "Clueless" like DougE always like to imply anytime I say anything in opposition to the PAGC.
As far as deer not eating acorns in the winter that is BS as well. They will still paw through the snow to get to acorns even with winter wheat, rye and oats standing 40 yds away. And with the way the way the PAGC timbered ALL the areas around where I live that "40% Oak tree forest estimate decreases in my area everytime they timber because that is the first thing they cut down and then they leave crap like poplar and gum trees stand. If not for the greenbriar they leave behind they would have very little left to eat for the winter. An acorn mast should not be relied upon as a constant food source because it is not, but when the oaks produce acorns as they did last year it supplied months (even into the spring) of food for all species in an amount equal to the other browse that is there on an annual basis. The percentage of oaks cut down should not be as high in areas where there is already significant damage inflicted on the habitat. By eliminating the potential for this crop it places more pressure on other undergrowth species trying to grow thus the cycle of degeneration continues, there is no other foreseeable outcome. But I am sure I am still "clueless".

sproulman

you are not going to win with douge.he sees and his buddies see dead deer all over.but they are only ones that do.
this is our buddys way of convincing us its the habitat that doing it not overharvest of doe.
its like qdma group said to sproul,SPROUL I SAW 7 DEAD DOE AT FEEDERS FROM EATING YOUR CORN.
i said, did you take picture, no.
did you report it to wco or sportsmans club, no.

i aint dumb ,maybe stupid at times but not a dumby.

sproulman

guncHamp,you are not going WAYBACK,LOTS OF DEER WAYBACK...