No I didn't, here is what I said....

Why don't you come to central or northern Pa and film then you can show the world how great of a job the game commission did managing the deer across the rest of the State.
I don't see the word ruined anywhere here, you're putting words in my mouth. The PAGC has gone above and beyond any responsible reduction in the areas surrounding where I live. it is fact... Yes a few nice buck are shot but by those same guys who have always gone above and beyond in order to shoot mature buck. And this is what you consider successful management? What do you think is going to happen???? We can't shoot spikes anymore so of course guys are going to hold out longer and shoot bigger deer because it is the law not because of HR.


Once again... where did I say that. Seems you are arguing a point I never made. Of course the deer are going to severely impact the forest when the forest is being timbered for profit and not habitat by the PAGC. When you cut down all the mast producing hardwoods and the only thing they have left to eat is whatever is growing from underneath then of course they will browse and browse more of it because it doesn't meet the nutritional level of what a mature forest has, given it is timbered responsibly allowing new regeneration by clearing the low $ crap wood out and leaving the trees that provide a preferred food source. But the PAGC DOES NOT DO THAT. They haven't reduced their Income they just reduce the deer herd and that fixes EVERYTHING! Right, Give me a break!!!

Like I said that was the only solution? Kill the deer, not be more responsible with the managing of the land just issue more tags. No that wasn't the only solution, that was the cheapest/ most economical solution..... Don't sacrifice timber profits when you can make more money off doe tags...


So, I live in a valley completely surrounded by miles of mountains and I shouldn't expect to be able to travel 4 miles in any wooded direction and see deer on the first day to keep my 13 yr old son interested in hunting? It is completely unreasonable of me to want my son to have a good hunting experience without having to travel an hour when we live in the mountains?

Quote:

if you actually hunt where deer should be instead of where you want them to be

Real Nice Douge! Bring your arrogant self down off your perch and realize because someone shows disatisfaction for what has been done in parts of PA they are not "clueless" or less intelligent than you or not as "wilderness savvy" as you. I have killed MATURE buck and I know where one should expect to find deer given their population has been managed at a responsible level. The game Commission has gone too far in my area but as I expect you'll say the entire state is much better than it's ever been, right? If you don't then you must concede to my original post regarding the rest of the state and the way it was managed.

Rest of... meaning - other areas of the state not managed as well as others in which the results are fewer in numbers than what was necessary for forest regeneration and establishment of a healthy habitat. I can still see 200 yds in any direction in some of those areas not because of the deer but because the area needs some selective cutting. The canopy killed off the undergrowth before the deer have a chance but let's just focus on killing deer as you said it is the only way to fix the problem

Whats wrong with profiting from timber sales?

It's wrong when they are a game management agency and their no 1 priority when timbering isn't for habitat, it's for profit. And then on top of it the PAGC is opposed to redistributing 10% of that profit back into the habitat.

Look at any stewardship timbering program and compare that to what the PAGC has done and then you tell me what's wrong with their priorities.

Their answer is take from the land- harwoods, deer, natural gas, coal, etc. Make money and put very- VERY little back.
And then do everything in their power to increase license prices. They want us to spend more but they don't want to spend anything above what they are currently spending now.

They are in financial turmoil and need $ badly. In order to survive they are going to need extra funding from somewhere. They put themselves in this situation and now we and the land are supposed to bail them out.

You have no idea what you're talking about.First of all,deer need browse during the winter.Mast crops are not reliable from year to year and they only provide food for a few months of the year.On top of that,only about 40% of Pa's forests are oak forests.That leaves 60% without oak trees.Mast is good but deer need high quality prefered browse.Timbering is vital to to that.

The understory of a mature canopy should not be batten of everything except ferns.There's lot's of shade tolerant species that should be growing in the understory.Unfortuantely,some of those species,such as hobblebush were completly wiped out by the deer.Deer are called a keystone species for a reason.They can singlehandedly chase the compostion of a forest because they're selective browsers.They browse the more prefered species and then the non-prefered,useless species take over.That's eactly what happened because hunters demanded far too many deer far far too long.Unfortuantely,it's a complex problem that will take a long time,alot of money and alot less deer to fix.You see,when you have habitat that's been as devistated as ours,it takes way less deer to continue to have an impact.That's a fact and that's what we're faced with.

The northcentral part of the state is also faced with a very even aged stand of timber because it was clearcut in the early part of this century.In order to fix it,they have to cut the timber on a 100 year rotation.That's only 1% a year so the amount of seedling'sapling timber that it takes to support large numbers of deer simply isn't there.

I've spent countless hours over the past 10 years with foresters from DCNR,PSU AND THE us FOREST SERCVICE.To say that the PGC is cutting timber simply for the money is way out in left field.I volunteer money and time every year to work on our gamelands.Every game land has a management plan and none of it is done for timber profits over habitat improvements.that's a basless accusation without an ounce of proof.Please be specific and tell us exactly how the game lands are being managed for profit over improvements to the habitat.

When you claim that the doe lisences were sold simply for profit shows how little you actually know.The PGC makes about $2.50 from each lisence that goes into their general fund.The county treasures get a buck,It costs money to produce them and guess what,$2.50 from each lisence is mandated by the legislature to go back into habitat improvements.

Pa had way too many deer for the habitat.It's been proven time and time again.In fact,not one expert has been able to prove otherwise.The USP hasn't even been able to find one qualified person to testify on their behalf.

4D is the pits. Gary Alt for Congress/

Just took a horse ride on my local gamelands. didn't see any evidence of the PGC raping that land for profit. Counted twenty different deer though.

DougE:
i have one question for you,,,,in all your (so-called) countless hours of volunteering time and money to work on gamelands,,,have you ever ventured outside your safe zone of area 2g? I love you guys from 2g and 2f,,,,the posts from you guys on here are always arrogantly written,,,you know everything and the rest of the hunting public are losers who know nothing about hunting deer. I invite you to come sit on my land in area 4d for a weekend over feeders,,,we'll spend the nights spotlighting and the days tramping thru the woods,,,i'll allow you to show me the devastation to the woods and you'll allow me to show you the devastation to the deer herd,,,i'll show you all the gamecam pics of the bear,,,a few turkeys,,,a fisher,,,and even a bobcat jumping onto the roof of one of the feeders,,,i think i can muster up 2 maybe 3 pics of deer. What was good for your area of 2g was devastating to the area of 4d where i hunt,,,Its pathetic to say the least. HR went too far all in the name of bigger bucks,,,,that was the selling point that Alt was trying to jam up everyones A$$,,,and it's still heading all the posts from you 2g and 2f'rs "were seeing bigger and better bucks than we ever have"!! we'll great!,,,out here in 4d we aint seein ****!

Foxfire66:
Congratulations & best wishes on your endevour,,,i will be following your quest for the mighty whitetail and i will buy your dvds. Sorry for corrupting your post with the above nonsense,,,but i take this game of deer and deer hunting to heart!

Finally a dvd where people actually hunt in PA.....all I ever seem to run across is hunting in the midwest....I like seeing some nice bucks being taken out of PA!!! Way to go guys and keep up the good work!