More on the failed Pa game commission deer plan - audit article
 

Interesting portion of a recent article:

"The model the PGC employs to estimate the state's deer population and track its trends was deemed by WMI to be "credible."

However, WMI criticized the agency for withholding its population data from the public.

If you asked a PGC official in recent years how many deer live in Pennsylvania, you likely heard the following response. I heard it many times.
We don't gauge our deer management program by the number of deer in the state.
I always assumed that meant the agency didn't make such estimates.

Apparently, WMI had the same assumption going into the study.

"When WMI submitted our proposal to conduct a review of deer management in Pennsylvania, it cautioned that the requested estimates [of deer population figures] would not be attainable if data of sufficient rigor were not available," the report states.

"WMI learned that the PGC had calculated estimates for deer populations for each WMU, including breakdowns by sex and age."

According to PGC figures, the state's herd in 2007 stood at a low estimate of 850,000 and a high estimate of 1.28 million.

Those estimates reflect a 25 percent decline in the herd since 2002, the report states.

That's the first I've seen such numbers. And it seems this report represents the first opportunity anyone outside the agency has had to see them.

"WMI does not agree, however, that population estimates need to be shielded from the public," the report states. "Doing so, in WMI's view, has weakened the trust placed in the PGC by the public and has affected the agency's credibility."

State Rep. David Levdansky, of Allegheny County, who is a member of the Legislative Budget and Finance Committee, said he was "stunned" to learn the PGC had been keeping population estimates in recent years.

"I had no idea," he said. "And the question I have is, why would a public agency withhold information from the public it serves?"

Another member of the committee, state Rep. Robert Godshall, of Montgomery County, said he thinks the estimates are worthless, since the 2007 figures vary by 400,000 deer.

"How do you manage the herd if your population estimates vary by 50 percent?" he said. "When you allocate doe tags, do you go by 850,000 or do you go by 1.28 million?"

And he said he doesn't buy that the herd has declined by 25 percent.

"We know darn well it went down more than that," Godshall said. "You used to see 10-20 deer a day, and now it's hard to see three in three days."

In a related arena, WMI rapped the PGC on the knuckles for not doing enough to make hunters report their deer kills.

Each year, the agency acknowledges only about 40 percent of hunters report their deer kills to the PGC.

Hunters are required by law to make those reports, but enforcement of that requirement is spotty.

"The PGC needs to develop and prioritize policies and procedures to increase harvest reporting," the WMI report states. "The declining trend in the reporting rate jeopardizes the viability of the PGC's harvest estimates."

The report notes, and PGC officials agree, the new electronic licensing system offers an opportunity for the agency to be more aggressive in compelling hunters to report their kills.

Godshall suggested hunters be required to report their kills or forfeit the right to buy a hunting license the following year.


Since 2001, the PGC has said the deer management program would be guided by three main indices in each WMU — health of the deer, health of the forest and the number of deer-human conflicts.

The way agency biologists gauge deer health is by having wildlife conservation officers collect road-killed deer during the late winter and spring, cut them open and count the number of embryos inside to establish reproductive rates.

"The PGC believed reproductive rates to be a function of an aggregation of both forest and non-forest habitat quality," the report states.

WMI first said the PGC's embryo-collection data were insufficient, chiefly because "effort among WCOs varied widely," the report states.

But besides that, WMI doesn't think counting embryos is an effective measure of herd health.

"Based on the analysis of embryo and forest regeneration data, there appears to be no correlation between reproductive rates and forest health at the WMU level," the report states.

It continues, "WMI believes the deer health index used by the PGC should be replaced."

Measuring antler beams on yearling bucks is a better test, the report states, although WMI notes that wouldn't work in Pennsylvania due to the antler restrictions, which are designed to protect yearling bucks.

"Fawn-to-doe harvest ratio is the most preferred alternative," the report states.

In its response to the report, the PGC stands by its health measure, but promises to consider alternatives.

"Despite biological and statistical support for this measure, the value of the measure to the deer management decision-making process warrants further consideration, as recommended," the PGC's response letter states.

On the way the PGC gauges forest health by tracking the changes in test regeneration plots, WMI said the method is valid, but the sampling size is insufficient.

"Forest health data as currently collected suffers from inadequate sampling," the report states. "The practice of pooling five years of ... data into an estimate used to adjust annual antlerless permit allocations is difficult to interpret and defend."

The PGC agrees, but says it's doing the best it can.

"We would always like to have more data," agency spokesman Jerry Feaser said. "But collecting that data costs money. Where do we get that money?"

Tom Boop, a member of the Board of Game Commissioners who has been critical of the science behind the agency's deer management program, said he believes WMI's comments on the PGC's measures of deer and forest health validate his criticisms.

"I've been critical of our management program the past six years for not following sound science," he said. "This audit is hardly a ringing endorsement of our so-called scientific program."
...
What happens now?

WMI noted some of its recommendations require the PGC to spend money on resources and hiring more employees.

The PGC has been saying for years it needs a hike in hunting license fees to do what it's already doing, let alone take on anything new.

And all state agencies are under a hiring freeze, as per the instructions of Gov. Ed Rendell.

Levdansky said he's aware of those limitations, but he isn't sure the PGC is committed to making the changes recommended in the report anyway.

He described the agency's response to the report in a news release as "tepid."

In the release, PGC Executive Director Carl Roe said the agency welcomes "the conclusion that the overall scientific foundation of the Game Commission's deer management system is sound."

He also noted the report "provides some opportunities to improve our deer management program.

"Some of the recommendations we can address easily, but some will require additional resources to be able to implement."

Chris Rosenberry, head of the PGC's deer management team, pledged to implement the report's findings and recommendations "where possible."

"I think it's going to be up to the members of the general assembly to continue to remind the Game Commission that white-tailed deer are a resource for all Pennsylvanians," Levdansky said.

Boop said he thinks the "deer management team is taking this as a validation of what they're doing," and is likely to dismiss the "real criticisms" leveled by WMI.

From my perspective, I think we will see a continuation of the battle WMI observed in its report.

"The PGC appears to be at the forefront of developing techniques to assess impacts of deer on forest habitat quality," the report states.

"The PGC, however, continues to be subjected to considerable criticism from hunters about deer management programs. Most states have had a period of time when deer management goals, practices or decisions were controversial, but Pennsylvania is unique in that the period of controversy seems never to have waned."

I highlighted the parts I found most of interest in bold and or red.:biggrin:

I am amazed that we finally have an outdoor writer who did his homework and actually read and understood the audit. Can you provide a link or the name of the author? I'd like to give him a big pat on the back!!

Imagine that, another PA Game post. Guys, have you ever thought of giving this forum a rest. So we can see other things than PA and the PGC? I mean seriously, enough already. I get it, your not happy. But why ruin this forum so no-one else wants to post something about MD, or DE, or whatever.

No one from PA jumped in on the MD. thread ,so why are you complaining about this PA thread. There is more than enough server space for you to post anything you want about MD,so go ahead and post it.

Because most PA only sites have shut down the most extreme of the basher crowd. Dont misunderstand, they allow debate but when the posts get as extreme as they often do here, it gets shut down or cleaned up

I challenge you to name the PA only sites,other than HPA, that have shut down the most extreme of the basher crowd. The simple fact is there are no sites that restrict discussions to hunting just in PA,so once again you are WRONG!!!!!

BTW, are you trying to hijack this thread like bigcountry?

If you dont like these threads dont read them!!
And the reason you dont see more threads in this forum by members from MD. and DE. is because they dont have very many hunters!!
And many of the hunters you do have are from PA. any way.
Face it, MD. residents would rather play soccer, lacrosse and attend Peta demostrations than go hunting!! Pike

Yeh cornie, I would like to know who the author is as well!! Pike

First how can anyone hijack a PGC bashing thread by talking about PGC bashing?:confused0024:

Second, I never said that any PA site restricted discussions to only PA but when PA is part of the name, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that PA will dominate the subject matter:s13:

Well go post something. Just don't expect it to stay on top of the board for a week or two with two to three replys in six months.

http://articles.lancasteronline.com/local/4/248907

P.J. Reilly was the author.

Quitcher whining. You wanna post? Noones stopping you. You were ignored the first time you whined I guess you couldnt stand it? I guess you are just waiting for all the Pa threads to stop before you start filling up the board eh?? IVe seen periods where this place has slowed to a crawl with hardly and posts at all. Where was your input and interest then? There are tons and tons of other forums on this board, you dont have to participate in any you dont like.

HuntingPA does not silence the PGC bashers. People may disagree with you there but no ones view is silenced unless they begin personal attacks on other members.

So why haven't they banned RSB,who is the master at personal attacks?

Lemme get this straight, YOU are complaining about moderation here? You are complaining about "extreme" unacceptable postings?? My gawd man, thats down-right hilarious.

As for you untrue statement, go over to hpa. Even on that highly moderated and biased site, the dam holding back the flood finally burst and so many have jumped off the band wagon, and there are 10X as many antideer plan posts as there are here.

I know what you're saying, RSB has come after me a time or two. He seems to know where the line is and he doesn't cross it. At least not enough to get suspended.

"HuntingPA does not silence the PGC bashers."

They most certainly do and have for years since the ownership change, and thats a well known fact...no reason to even argue in attempt at damage control. That cats been out of the bag for a long time now.

It has changed currently since some of the "good ol boys" are no longer sipping the cool-aid and too many people are complaining to boot all at once! lol.

Muttley...bowbum...shooter....several others... Have complete immunity and have personally attacked other members for years on a daily basis.

Muttley? Really? come on now. I'd give you John S., but Muttley?

he he he, how could i ever have forgotten John S? lol.

You know I would love too. But its non-stop bullcrap ever since these few guys came here crying like little girls. Who wants to post in a forum with relentless PGC posts. If its not that, its some idiot who thinks they saw a mountain lion in PA.

I just don't see the need to ruin this entire forum with personal attacks on the PGC. Surely there is a better way to work this than to ruin this forum by a bunch of newbie PA guys.

Honestly man, you really ought to take a good look at your life and wonder what its became. I am not being mean spirited or anything, just telling you the truth. Go do a search on your name and see what you come up with. Look real long and hard at what your life is.

Why ruin this forum with a bunch of cryin the blues. No-one wants to post here from other states because of this grownman crybaby stuff.

Yeh they do!! I was a Mod for over 5 years on HPA. and stepped down because guys like Bluebird (Beenthere) got the boot for his anti PGC. views even though his post's/ behavior was no worse than RSB.'s, WV. Gino's or mine. The only reason I didnt get the boot was because I was a Mod. (by the way I was asked to be a Mod back when I was pro PGC.)
Back in Feb. I finally got the boot for saying the Philadelphia Flyers got screwed on that call for using profanity (even though if you visit HPA. right now you will see far worse) and also for posting a joke that I got in my email about why NFL. QB's should have short last names and had pics of girls in bikini's with Farve's name and #, Brady's name and #, Romo's name and # on their back sides (fully clothed) and then there was a pic. of a 300 lb. fat chick in a bikini with Big Ben's name and # on her backside.
I got booted for good because I posted pic's of scantily clad women even though they were dressed no worse than girls at any pool or beach. (and like before you can go on HPA right now and see worse.) But like most anti PGC. members who got the boot from HPA., the only reason I got the boot was because I was anti PGC. Pike

They don't? Better keep that your little secret cause no-body else knows it. Ok, show me what you got big hunter.

I grew up Hunting Baltimore/ Carrol and Queen Anne's and 80% + of the hunters I ran into were from PA.
What do you want me to show you? (I'll be your huckleberry, but im not a mind reader???) Pike

I live in Carroll and own my own land, and have two leases in Queen Annes, and had leases in Dorchester, and never once ran into a PA hunter.

Only place I ran into PA hunters was when I hunted Penalton and Hardy Counties in WV. But PA hunters just wanted to drive deer and I had enough of that.

You felt the need to say all people in MD are in this and that. Show us all what a top hunter you are. Show us some Pope and Youngs.

Herenis last 3 bucks. But dont know what this proves??Pike

Nice buck, just wanted to make sure you guys actually hunt. Because the ring leaders for this PA cryin on this forum don't want to talk hunting, just want to sit here and cry and moan. Just curious.

BC. click on my profile and look at my past post's!! Very few of my posts on HNI are about the PGC., but If and when I do, I could really care less ( no offense) about what some one else from another state thinks because I am very passionate about the very rich hunting tradition here in PA. Pike

Well, doesnt look like any further reply is necessary here at the moment from muah, other than this "bigcountry" guy should probably lay off the ridiculous unwarranted personal attacks, i believe those are against the rules here.

Way to take care of Business as usual, Jay Pike!:patriot:

They have a place to go where their views are welcome. They chose to post here because they think they are getting national exposure for there cause/agenda or whatever. As long as they follow the rules more power to them. Just post what you want, if some one is interested they will find it . I allways scroll the first two pages for something interesting to read.

Honestly, I am not referring to you. I am talking about these newbies like Corneilious, and bluebird.

Your the one who decided to explain to me what MD's were and were not. I am from Ky, and honestly not sure what lacrosse is.

Point I am getting out is, its broken record with these guys. Almost freakish. One has to really look at thier lives and see what its became.

Another newbie telling me what people will find. Been here since 1999. Nobody wants to post here because of this bull crap.

Whats with the newbie thing? Because you have 19000 some post and been around here since 2003 there is supposed to be some kind of pecking order? If you don't think it worth your time to read these threads then don't read them , it is that simple. If all these Pa threads are somehow making people feel irrelevent then I think its more a personal issue.

I don't know any of HPA's moderators or any of the politics that go on behind the scenes.I do know that I rabidly opposed the DMP for quite a while and everything Alt said and did.I never even so much as got a warning back then.The only warning I ever got was from a little Amish humor.BT was banned because he highjacked every single thread and turned it into an AR/hr debate.It wasn't because he opposed the PGC or the DMP.

I just don't see what benefit it is for a handfull of yahoos to non-stop post this PGC crap. Its the same crap over and over. No post is different. I can choose to read or not, thats not for you to advise or tell me.

It just appears that all of this PGC crap came all at once from a bunch of people who got kicked off other forums for ruining them.

Also, from an outsider looking in, it appears to be "reaching" with all these posts and attacks. From outsiders perspective, its not doing these guys agenda any good with this constant bombardment of this forum.

I mean who wants to come here and post things when all they see is non stop crying and moaning like little children about PGC?

It would be equivalent to me posting non stop about the dangers of crossbows and how it will ruin archery hunting. Post after post after post about it. Who wants to read that crap? Also, it would make me appear a little like a fruitcake. These guys don't realize how silly they look.

Nothing spells irony like a hothead whining and throwing a temper tantrum about invasion of his space, then signing his posts with a half dozen bible references trying to paint the picture of a peaceful Christian neighbor. Gimme a break! Obviously with 20,000 posts on one site you should try to find some more meaningful recreation.

wow, imagine that another poster from Sept 2008. What a coincidence.

Was you under the assumption that all Christians were perfect? Seriously was you?

I put those scriptures there for my own benefit. Not as you say to portray a peaceful Christian neighbor. Did you even read them to understand?