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Back on 12-19-07 old chicken kicker was all full of hope and optimism willing to tell all how good HR was and how wrong those that opposed it were, my how times have changed. Now that he sees his future slipping through his fingers now that he has to live with what so many other hunters have had to deal with. It was all to easy to say those words wasn’t it john it a different ballgame when you have to live with what you support
Letter to editor in Times Observer today 12/19 Here is what I submitted, it was only slightly edited...I guess the editor never heard of a "deer yard", he changed it to "Deer herd". “No deer!” I am tired of that saying. Let me ask my fellow hunters something, when did we move away from being stewards of wildlife and just become consumers who buy something and expect something, and if we don’t get it, we go after the seller? When people read the editorials on this subject I hope they don’t think all hunters share such a narrow vision. Way too many are judging the current deer population on a few days in the woods in the Fall. Why should a deer herd be kept elevated to provide some days of recreation when it causes them to ruin their surroundings and barely live through tough winters? Remember huge winter deer yards and finding dead deer come spring? Seen those lately? Were those really “the good old days”? The deer we hunt deserve far more respect and care from us than that. Yes, the new program has knocked the herd way back, but it was meant too, it was called HERD REDUCTION. I don’t think anyone thought it would be done so well, but is hunting ruined forever? No way, in fact it has forever proven that hunters are the most effective means to reduce deer numbers. We are just being asked to be patient while a new balance is found. There is no big conspiracy to destroy all the deer. If agencies wanted the deer gone, why did the ANF not issue additional DMAP tags this year for the bulk of the national forest? And why did the PAGC not raise doe tag allocations to meet the huge demand that causes almost immediate sellout in our area? Have some patience. Hunters that endure can look forward to many great years to come. Those that quit, well hey that ball is in your court. But is there anything wrong with having to spend more time in the woods all year to find the deer we seek? I mean being outdoors around here is a true blessing and a little patience and perhaps a tweak in attitude and you may just find hunting more rewarding and satisfying than ever before. If you choose to stay in the “good old days”, well then expect to be miserable just like that young deer that can’t reach any browse in late February. My family and I will choose the high road and continue to do what we feel is best as stewards of the forest and the deer. So what will I do as a Father? Well here is my plan. Make sure that the urge to fill the tag or bag the limit does not overtake the pace my kids need to enjoy the sport. Long term focus, not short term rewards are the goal of the hunt. Get them thinking of the outdoors 365 days a year, not just October thru January. Sell the whole package and make sure they want to be part of the cycle of life and not just the harvest. Get them out to plant apple trees in the Spring, see the young fawns in summer, as well as the late winter carcasses of deer that succumbed to nature’s sometimes cruel hand. |
Originally Posted by DougE
(Post 3588634)
You should really make up your mind.First,there's no deer near your place and now it's so easy to kill them,you don't even have to hunt for them.
Yes there's on average 15-20 deer feeding daily in a 30 acre bean/corn field I let stand for them ...just to keep them off the Gamelands so doe killers can't get them. But considering those are the only deer or tracks you'll see in this township all winter I'll still lean towards saying the DSM is too low around here. Of course to a doe killing meat monger if they can find that much sign thru pre season scouting it must be a good idea to kill them off. |
Originally Posted by Potterco
(Post 3588939)
Yes there's on average 15-20 deer feeding daily in a 30 acre bean/corn field I let stand for them ...just to keep them off the Gamelands so doe killers can't get them. But considering those are the only deer or tracks you'll see in this township all winter I'll still lean towards saying the DSM is too low around here.
Of course to a doe killing meat monger if they can find that much sign thru pre season scouting it must be a good idea to kill them off. |
Some guys need to get over their mancrush they have on HPA. If HPA bothers you that much it's because you got run out. If you got run out it's because you caused more trouble than you were worth having around. nobody fires up more people on HPA than myself, and I'm still there because I don't cast insults at people.
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Originally Posted by DougE
(Post 3588982)
I'm sure there just standing there daily during hunting season so you could easily kill them at will.Like 99.99% of your posts.I ain't buying it.It's illogical and just plain stupid to assume every deer in the twp will stay in a 30 acre field all winter.
Well DougE then you must be dumber than dirt to think those brown critters in the field every morning and evening, day after day aren't deer..they do walk out of the field to bed in my woods most days but alot of times they don't bother to leave at all. I do believe "If" I wished to lower myself I could pop one of them with a .22 mag with no more effort than shooting sparrows off the grain bin....... Little wonder you must do so much scouting to find a doe to kill...you're looking for the wrong type of critter...12 doe in 2 years you say????? hmmmm more like 12 groundhogs maybe as I seriously doubt you're a good enough hunter to kill even 1 measly doe! |
Originally Posted by moosemike
(Post 3589008)
Some guys need to get over their mancrush they have on HPA. If HPA bothers you that much it's because you got run out. If you got run out it's because you caused more trouble than you were worth having around. nobody fires up more people on HPA than myself, and I'm still there because I don't cast insults at people.
Whose casting insults im pointing out facts 2 years ago he posted the following advice listed below. it was published on line and in the news paper to hunters of the potter co.area the same area he now complains about. Today he feels that taking his boy there will ruin him, He feels he needs to wait till the child is 17 yet he still supports the program. He is quite fortunate he has another option for his family to keep their interest in hunting high. What about all those that don’t have his option did his advice only apply to them? How many kids have we lost in those 2 years but that was fine until HR hit his boy now the sky is falling. He advised others to be patient most have endured it a lot longer than his 2 years. Maybe if he got off the 50 acre food plot sooner he would have realized most in the area were patient. Mike his site tries to paints the rosy picture, his moderators past and present bashed, belittled and insult anyone opposed to HR, and his moderators white wash every negative pgc post by editing them. Your new there mike, in time you will see what we are talking about. So big john follow your own advice and take your boy to potter camp and be patient!!! :busted: “Make sure they want to be part of the cycle of life and not just the harvest” “We are just being asked to be patient while a new balance is found.” “Have some patience. Hunters that endure can look forward to many great years to come. Those that quit, well hey that ball is in your court.” “I mean being outdoors around here is a true blessing and a little patience and perhaps a tweak in attitude and you may just find hunting more rewarding and satisfying than ever before.” “Make sure that the urge to fill the tag or bag the limit does not overtake the pace my kids need to enjoy the sport. Long term focus, not short term rewards are the goal of the hunt” |
Originally Posted by Potterco
(Post 3589031)
Well DougE then you must be dumber than dirt to think those brown critters in the field every morning and evening, day after day aren't deer..they do walk out of the field to bed in my woods most days but alot of times they don't bother to leave at all. I do believe "If" I wished to lower myself I could pop one of them with a .22 mag with no more effort than shooting sparrows off the grain bin.......
Little wonder you must do so much scouting to find a doe to kill...you're looking for the wrong type of critter...12 doe in 2 years you say????? hmmmm more like 12 groundhogs maybe as I seriously doubt you're a good enough hunter to kill even 1 measly doe! I don't doubt that what your seeing are deer.I just doubt that they're the only deer in the twp or even close it. I actually usually average about 2-3 groundhogs per year these days.It used to be in the 40-50/year range but I don't hunt them much any more.I have far more opprotunites to kill deer than I do groundhogs.I don't hunt farms where the deer some into fields on a predicatable basis.I hunt the big woods where groundhogs don't exists. |
Originally Posted by moosemike
(Post 3589008)
Some guys need to get over their mancrush they have on HPA. If HPA bothers you that much it's because you got run out. If you got run out it's because you caused more trouble than you were worth having around. nobody fires up more people on HPA than myself, and I'm still there because I don't cast insults at people.
I think the reason is alot deeper than just less deer but I'm not going to get into someone else's business on a public forum. |
Originally Posted by DougE
(Post 3589045)
... I don't hunt farms where the deer some into fields on a predicatable basis.I hunt the big woods where groundhogs don't exists.
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Doug is not that bad of a guy he comes across at times as some alpha hunter but that’s just Doug. Over the years we have had some heated discussions but in the end he has his views and I have mine. Will we ever agree NO! but I do respect him for standing up for what he believes in and mutual respect is shown on both sides when we are discussing deer
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Originally Posted by Potterco
(Post 3589060)
guess you don't know what a groundhog looks like either...duh woodchucks live in woods too...you might want to stick to shooting squirrels...you know what they look like don't you...little gray 4 footed critter with big bushy tails...live everywhere even in your "big woods"..BTW I'd like to see your big woods...probably nothing more than a city park...hey buy yourself a bag of peanuts and go sit on your blind (park bench)...right after you offer that candy to the little girls you can toss out the nuts...shouldn't be too long before some big woods critters show up!
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POtter, i actually thnk the opposite about Doug's hunting skills. While I disagree heartily with anyone killing high numbers of doe each year, in defense of his skillset, he finds and kills them on public land, many of them with a bow, and in the WMU with the lowest DD in the state. I think he's probably a exceptionally skilled hunter, which translates to his unwillingness to believe that everyone else can't find many deer in the same places. JM2C
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Originally Posted by bowhunter2117
(Post 3589064)
Doug is not that bad of a guy he comes across at times as some alpha hunter but that’s just Doug. Over the years we have had some heated discussions but in the end he has his views and I have mine. Will we ever agree NO! but I do respect him for standing up for what he believes in and mutual respect is shown on both sides when we are discussing deer
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Originally Posted by Screamin Steel
(Post 3589070)
POtter, i actually thnk the opposite about Doug's hunting skills. While I disagree heartily with anyone killing high numbers of doe each year, in defense of his skillset, he finds and kills them on public land, many of them with a bow, and in the WMU with the lowest DD in the state. I think he's probably a exceptionally skilled hunter, which translates to his unwillingness to believe that everyone else can't find many deer in the same places. JM2C
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ain't got no use for doe killers matters little where they hunt..got even less use for meat mongers whom can't possibly use all they kill but just don't know when to quit...then try to excuse away their greed by slinging that old habitat line around..don't want any "mutal respect" from them either 'cause I'll never lower myself to their level of greed!!!!!!!
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Originally Posted by bowhunter2117
(Post 3589064)
Doug is not that bad of a guy he comes across at times as some alpha hunter but that’s just Doug. Over the years we have had some heated discussions but in the end he has his views and I have mine. Will we ever agree NO! but I do respect him for standing up for what he believes in and mutual respect is shown on both sides when we are discussing deer
http://forums.qdma.com/showthread.php?t=28340 |
Originally Posted by bowhunter2117
(Post 3589041)
Whose casting insults im pointing out facts 2 years ago he posted the following advice listed below. it was published on line and in the news paper to hunters of the potter co.area the same area he now complains about. Today he feels that taking his boy there will ruin him, He feels he needs to wait till the child is 17 yet he still supports the program. He is quite fortunate he has another option for his family to keep their interest in hunting high. What about all those that don’t have his option did his advice only apply to them? How many kids have we lost in those 2 years but that was fine until HR hit his boy now the sky is falling. He advised others to be patient most have endured it a lot longer than his 2 years. Maybe if he got off the 50 acre food plot sooner he would have realized most in the area were patient. Mike his site tries to paints the rosy picture, his moderators past and present bashed, belittled and insult anyone opposed to HR, and his moderators white wash every negative pgc post by editing them. Your new there mike, in time you will see what we are talking about. So big john follow your own advice and take your boy to potter camp and be patient!!! :busted:
I'm opposed to AR which gets them even more mad over there than if you don't like HR. I'm one of those horrible people who still wishes he could shoot a forkhorn when he sees one. They debate me and don't understand why I'm not passing bucks up but no one insults me and I haven't been banned. Being opposed to AR doesn't even get me any thumbs up here much less over there. P.S. I'm not all that new over there. |
I'm opposed to anything the PGC suggests in regard to deer...let them show me one single success story the've been responsible for in the last 15 years...turkeys?? no theat was the NWTF (of which I am a member)..elk??? no that was RMEF (of which I am a member)..phesants????...no don't get me started on them cause I'm a member of PF too!
Every single success of recent times with regard to wild game came about by independant groups not the PGC..time for the PGC to outsource the deer management too!!!!!!! |
Originally Posted by Potterco
(Post 3589122)
I'm opposed to anything the PGC suggests in regard to deer...let them show me one single success story the've been responsible for in the last 15 years...turkeys?? no theat was the NWTF (of which I am a member)..elk??? no that was RMEF (of which I am a member)..phesants????...no don't get me started on them cause I'm a member of PF too!
Every single success of recent times with regard to wild game came about by independant groups not the PGC..time for the PGC to outsource the deer management too!!!!!!! |
"I'm opposed to AR which gets them even more mad over there than if you don't like HR."
Not even close. While some may not like you being against ar, to those that matter over there, HR is the main issue of the oned these guys are talking about. Ar has nothing to do with preventing extreme unnatural levels of biodiversity and other such nonsense, and nothing to do with losing timber profits. Both things they are clearly concerned with. I'd also say you are fairly low key. I know all the "players" and usual combatants and only vaguely recognized your name as being a very casually posting board member, and couldnt even recall what your position is on the deer management issues. I see another member didnt recognize you from over there either... Id hardly think theyd see you as a threat to the status quo. lol. |
Originally Posted by Cornelius08
(Post 3589139)
"I'm opposed to AR which gets them even more mad over there than if you don't like HR."
Not even close. While some may not like you being against ar, to those that matter over there, HR is the main issue of the oned these guys are talking about. Ar has nothing to do with preventing extreme unnatural levels of biodiversity and other such nonsense, and nothing to do with losing timber profits. Both things they are clearly concerned with. I'd also say you are fairly low key. I know all the "players" and usual combatants and only vaguely recognized your name as being a very casually posting board member, and couldnt even recall what your position is on the deer management issues. I see another member didnt recognize you from over there either... Id hardly think theyd see you as a threat to the status quo. lol. Odd, considering I have made close to 7,000 posts there. |
Originally Posted by moosemike
(Post 3589137)
The PGC has managed the Bear population quite well. if you like bears as much as I do that is.
Let's not forget that bear season was closed for a few years prior to the boom in numbers,,,then restricted seasons...went from 1 week to 3 days (no weekend)...MAYBE just MAYBE we should do that with deer in some WMUs too!!!!!!!! |
Originally Posted by moosemike
(Post 3589143)
Odd, considering I have made close to 7,000 posts there.
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But hes living breathing proof hpa isnt nor have ever been biased pike. lol.
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Originally Posted by Potterco
(Post 3589122)
I'm opposed to anything the PGC suggests in regard to deer...let them show me one single success story the've been responsible for in the last 15 years...turkeys?? no theat was the NWTF (of which I am a member)..elk??? no that was RMEF (of which I am a member)..phesants????...no don't get me started on them cause I'm a member of PF too!
Every single success of recent times with regard to wild game came about by independant groups not the PGC..time for the PGC to outsource the deer management too!!!!!!! |
"It all started with just four
conservation-minded sportsmen with new ideas on how sportsmen and environmentalists can work together for fish and wildlife and their precious habitat." Statement from your groups site doug. Considering all the problems environmentalists are now causing, id hardly want to crawl into bed with the enemy. I have no problem with environmentalists in general, but they need to keep their friggin noses OUT of our business so much, instead of pulling them in further!:bash: |
Originally Posted by J Pike
(Post 3589161)
Moose Mike no offense but I didnt know you were a member on HPA. and I know all the players as well. In fact I just looked at your last 400 posts on HPA. and only 3 of them had to do with HR. or AR. Pike
I admit I'm not a big one for the AR/HR forum. I was at one time but it just got to be the exact same guys arguing the exact same things. Only so much of that I could handle. |
Originally Posted by bowhunter2117
(Post 3589064)
Doug is not that bad of a guy he comes across at times as some alpha hunter but that’s just Doug. Over the years we have had some heated discussions but in the end he has his views and I have mine. Will we ever agree NO! but I do respect him for standing up for what he believes in and mutual respect is shown on both sides when we are discussing deer
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Originally Posted by moosemike
(Post 3589008)
Some guys need to get over their mancrush they have on HPA. If HPA bothers you that much it's because you got run out. If you got run out it's because you caused more trouble than you were worth having around. nobody fires up more people on HPA than myself, and I'm still there because I don't cast insults at people.
That's not true RSB called me a flimflam man, a liar a con man and said I was full of horse-puckey and never got suspended. Even Doug called me a liar and a few other derogatory terms and he was never banned. Mutt was banned for posting my personal info , but was allowed to come back under a new screen name. The PGC bias on that site is obvious and undeniable. |
Originally Posted by bluebird2
(Post 3589242)
That's not true RSB called me a flimflam man, a liar a con man and said I was full of horse-puckey and never got suspended. Even Doug called me a liar and a few other derogatory terms and he was never banned. Mutt was banned for posting my personal info , but was allowed to come back under a new screen name. The PGC bias on that site is obvious and undeniable.
By "Mutt" do you mean Muttleysgone? I'll agree with you as far as two guys there, RSB and John S. they can get pretty mean at times and I don't think I could pull what they do. i'm not sure I'd want to try though either. |
Originally Posted by moosemike
(Post 3589251)
By "Mutt" do you mean Muttleysgone? I'll agree with you as far as two guys there, RSB and John S. they can get pretty mean at times and I don't think I could pull what they do. i'm not sure I'd want to try though either.
Yes Mutt = Muttleysgone, and BTW we agree about ARs. And, if you do a little more research on the history of HR I'll bet you'll agree that there was no need for the extreme , statewide HR the PGC implemented. |
Originally Posted by J Pike
(Post 3589161)
Moose Mike no offense but I didnt know you were a member on HPA. and I know all the players as well. In fact I just looked at your last 400 posts on HPA. and only 3 of them had to do with HR. or AR. Pike
Actually I spend alot of time in the "basement" over there with Bumblehick and the boys. |
Doug I dare say (without boasting) I personally have have placed nearly $10,000 out of my OWN pocket plus the use of my own equipment into habitat improvement on public lands...lands open to hunting...yes even to hunters whom wish to kill doe... in just 2009 alone.
On my own personal property (closed to the public) I spend on average of $175,000 to seed, fertilize,and plant crops each and every year...one could argue that I'm planting for my own gains..yes I do but let us not forget the amount of all animal species that eat as a result of my investment. And let us not forget the habitat work I have done thru good farming practices for the past 60 years....... Yup I'm a whiner whom doesn't give anything back alright!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Originally Posted by DougE
(Post 3589055)
I can honestly see why these guts are questing RB.He did an absolute 180 degree turn.
I think the reason is alot deeper than just less deer but I'm not going to get into someone else's business on a public forum. Oh I definately think it's deer.It looks like he is going to hunt around home on his land.Sounds like a good idea for the young ones.He's not a happy camper because of the deer populations around his camp.Face it,you're going to have a hard time keeping a kid interested in deer hunting when most likely you'll see none or maybe one. On the other hand there's nothing like hunting at camp.I couldn't imagine being stuck hunting here all the time and not the cabin.Though the deer sightings are few if we hang in there we've been lucky enough to kill bucks.Reports I've been getting about Potter county basically have not been good at all.I know one camp in southern Potter that used to average at least ten bucks but now might get one.And those boys spread out all over the place. I can't blame rooster for being upset. |
I agree 100% . it is about deer and keeping his kids interested in hunting. the individual bow hunter has unlimited options and can adjust to lower deer numbers. Those who are hunting from a camp and those that are hunting for the benefit of others in their group are much more limited in their options. For many years my home was the base camp of our group and those were the best years of my hunting career ,no matter what we killed.
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Originally Posted by moosemike
(Post 3589184)
I admit I'm not a big one for the AR/HR forum. I was at one time but it just got to be the exact same guys arguing the exact same things. Only so much of that I could handle.
Also I have been a member here and other websites for years as well and never even got a time out let alone banned and my behavior/ post's etc. is no better or worse on this or the other sties I frequent than it was and still is on HPA. Pike |
Originally Posted by bluebird2
(Post 3589335)
I agree 100% . it is about deer and keeping his kids interested in hunting. the individual bow hunter has unlimited options and can adjust to lower deer numbers. Those who are hunting from a camp and those that are hunting for the benefit of others in their group are much more limited in their options. For many years my home was the base camp of our group and those were the best years of my hunting career ,no matter what we killed.
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Originally Posted by moosemike
(Post 3589109)
I'm opposed to AR which gets them even more mad over there than if you don't like HR. I'm one of those horrible people who still wishes he could shoot a forkhorn when he sees one. They debate me and don't understand why I'm not passing bucks up but no one insults me and I haven't been banned. Being opposed to AR doesn't even get me any thumbs up here much less over there. P.S. I'm not all that new over there.
Ok if HPA is as fair as you or anyone may think go post the article I found. RB wrote it in the editorial section of the potter county news paper and on message boards just 2 years ago post it along side his post of today. Ask him where is his patience today? Why was he asking others to do what he complains about just 2 years later. Ask him why he support herd reduction if it destroyed his potter camp dreams. Ill guarantee you will be pounced on by the usual cast of characters and your post will be deleted within a few days if not a few hours and within a week you will be banned . |
Originally Posted by J Pike
(Post 3589382)
Amen Beenthere!! That's the real tragedy in all this!! The PGC. is killing the rich hunting tradition here in PA! Pike
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Originally Posted by J Pike
(Post 3589095)
No he is not!! I have discussed things with Doug on HPA and here for over 10 years now and he is very knowledgeable and dedicated to our sport. He is the one that did all the work and dedicated all time to get hunters access at Treasure Lake. In my opinion TL. is (was) the model that the PGC./ hunters could use in similar deer problem developments and lands owned by the state/govt., private land owners etc. across the state to get hunters access and take care of their deer problem. Without hunter access these deer problem area's will just continue to get worse and continue to make hunters look like they are not doing their job to PA. residents who do not under stand why we are not problem and why we currently cannot solve the problem in their particular area. This is the exact reason why I called out Gal That Fishes and Dutch etc. on this very same topic on QDMA.com for trying to turn TL. into something its not. Below is the Link. Pike
http://forums.qdma.com/showthread.php?t=28340 yano |
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