|
Frankly, I haven't tried to. That wasn't the issue, as you well know, I was responding to, simply your erroneous use of the term " NATURAL SELECTION " in your argument against AR's. Let me guess, you also carry around a pocket full of box cutters?? |
Originally Posted by crokit
(Post 3382911)
BOWTRUCK: Thank you for bringing an intelligent end to an otherwise highjacked thread:hail:
Originally Posted by bluebird2
(Post 3382918)
Obviously you didn't understand my reference to natural selection, which makes you incapable of providing a logical rebuttal. neither a non-AR harvest or an AR harvest represents what would occur with natural selection but I doubt that you have he capability to understand such a simple concept.
|
Finally you got something right!!
|
Originally Posted by crokit
(Post 3382910)
CORNELIUS: I feel for you, man. The opponents of AR in Pa. need not look any farther than BLUEBIRDS posts in this thread as to an ingredient of why AR's were not defeated, especially if others were mixing apples and oranges with such blindness. |
Maybe you can talk him into relocating to Horseheads? He could finish-out the rest of the horse.
:poke: |
DENNYF: Had to laugh, because I was thinking earlier, with BlueBird2, it's a one dog/pony show over and over etc......... Now that schools out and no homework to be done, look out!:lmao::lmao:
|
Originally Posted by SteveBNy
(Post 3382157)
Statewide habitat and herd numbers very far too widely to have a one size fits all approach.
In that article, the AR proponents are claiming 67% of the NYS hunters favor AR. If thats the case, who is it shooting all the 1 1/2 old bucks every year? That other 33% must be some darn great hunters. Steve I'd be willing to bet that of the 67% in favor, many may feel that way the first few days of season, but so many hunters have a need to fill a tag- whether due to egos, economics, etc.-as the season winds down, that crotch horn starts to look pretty good. JMHO. I have to agree with Cornelius regarding use of further herd reduction[ I'm not saying it is or isn't happening now down there ] along with AR could have a detrimental effect. I like the way NYS manages our deer herd, and have no complaints, but, I still think AR's on state lands, maybe the designated PRIMITIVE lands would work. |
Btw, howd that attitude work for you and buddies over on Griz garys board? Seems he finally got tired of of the b.s. and put some of the biggest whiners in their place. I guess some never learn. Napolean complex would be the sheer volume of posts of repetitious, look at me - I'm right and if you dont agree you are a fool (or liar or ?), that you, and a couple others infect threw out the NE Forum. Compare the volume of these posts to the handfull of mine pointing it out and tell me who has the complex. You have more posts directly calling people liars or worse, then I do in any Pa thread - and I have never resorted to using that term in any thread here. Apparently to you, consideration is something meaning you talk and everyone else listens. |
Crokit - back to the topic.
If the 67% really believed in AR, then they should be able to support it voluntarily during the whole season - therefore letting far more 1 1/2 bucks live. The fact they don't, to me says either the number is skewed or their commitment levels says it is not really that important to them. And if they where really serious about protecting 1 1/2's, they would learn to judge age based on factors other then points - extremely unreliable here in the central NY Finger Lakes region. A study of 7h, 7j and one other 7M (?) - a very large area with high deer numbers - a few years, showed nearly 60% of the 1 1/2's where 6 pt or better. The very best of the 1 1/2 would be the target of a 3 pt/side restriction. My biggest reason for being anti AR, is that I have never seen anything showing that it results in a significant number of 4 1/2 yo and up bucks being taken. This is the age of true maturity for deer. AR proponents repeatedly claim their motivation is to allow more bucks to mature - not to improve trophy quality. If it cannot be shown that a significant number make it to true maturity, then AR fails as to its claim. That leaves the only real reason to be wanting the bigger racks that 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 year old immature bucks may offer. If AR proponents would start admitting this as their motivation - to make it easier to shoot immature deer with bigger racks by limiting the choice of other huntiners, I would at least respect them. Steve |
This is from the DEC Report,
8 m 16 to 14 years of age in 2008. Comment: The Department received several comments regarding the February 2009 survey that was conducted in the 8 Wildlife Management Units prior to formally proposing expansion of the antler restriction area. Several hunters who support mandatory antler restrictions commented that the DEC guidelines requiring 67% support with no more than 20% strong opposition prior to proposing regulations for antler restrictions is unfair and a simple majority approach should be used. Additionally, these writers suggested that DEC is requiring significant effort from antler restriction proponents to pursue implementation. In contrast, several hunters who oppose mandatory antler restrictions thought the survey results were biased because DEC withheld information about the pilot program from survey participants. Further, these writers indicated that survey results unfairly favored antler restriction supporters because respondents who indicated “moderate opposition” were not included in DEC guidelines for evaluating hunter sentiment. Other writers thought all hunters should have been surveyed for a more accurate assessment. Still other writers commented that reliance on opinion surveys rather than biological data is inappropriate. Response: Because antler restrictions are not necessary for proper biological management of New York’s deer herd but rather reflect social values and desires among hunters, the Department has asked proponents to demonstrate that substantial grassroots interest exists among hunters in an area prior to the Department conducting a rigorous scientific assessment of hunter opinion. Additionally, because mandatory antler restrictions would represent a major change to the hunting tradition in New York, the Department believes it is appropriate that the potential program change be supported by a supermajority of affected hunters and not strongly opposed by more than 1/5th of hunters. Information about the existing antler restriction program was not provided to survey recipients in order to avoid biasing respondents. The survey was conducted in a scientifically sound manner using a random sample of hunters that hunt the 8 WMUs under consideration. Support and opposition levels for some units and confidence intervals for all units “bracketed” the guidelines established by the Department. This means that the data could be interpreted to either support moving forward with a formal rulemaking proposal for antler restrictions or to support taking no action. Given the equivocal results, the Department opted to move to the formal rulemaking process to use the 45-day public comment period as an opportunity to further clarify the attitudes of deer hunters and other stakeholders towards antler restrictions in this area. |
I'm probably missing the method, but did the site changes remove the ability to BLOCK posts!:confused::confused:
|
Glad to see we didn't implement AR's and I let em walk.
You can block someone, it's in your usercp.............................if you're that much of a girlyman.:0 |
Originally Posted by crokit
(Post 3383351)
I'm probably missing the method, but did the site changes remove the ability to BLOCK posts!:confused::confused:
|
Originally Posted by Charlie P
(Post 3383360)
Glad to see we didn't implement AR's and I let em walk.
You can block someone, it's in your usercp.............................if you're that much of a girlyman.:0 LMAO! I've been called ALOT worse:):jaw: |
I would have favored AR's on state land, and I let them run. |
I hunt state land in Chenango County. Judging by what I've seen over the last few years, NY state land in that area doesn't need ARs. We've seen and taken some real decent bucks on NY state land.
|
STEVEBNY says;
 |
Crokit, I dont hold a grudge against those who dont like ar, and I dont see any reason why anyone should hold one against those who support them.
I support it myself because the buck population has always been age poor here, and i think it would be worse without ar. I think if we had ar prior to hitting extremes with some of the reduction then kept the herd stable we would have seenmore gains with only some reduction. Another reason I support ar, is that I think that most do support ar, at least that is my opinion from those I hear from on the issues as well as overall on the message boards. My gripe, like i said is all the excess reduction. I dont think ar is a black and white issue....either right or wrong. I also dont think its a big "biological issue". I think it more a matter of hunter opinion as to wether it should or shouldnt be. I could be wrong, but I believe more than half would like to see it continue. Hunter desires may not mean much to pgc these days, but it does play somewhat of a role in wether I support an issue or not. |
I dont think ar is a black and white issue....either right or wrong. I also dont think its a big "biological issue". I think it more a matter of hunter opinion as to wether it should or shouldnt be. I could be wrong, but I believe more than half would like to see it continue. Hunter desires may not mean much to pgc these days, but it does play somewhat of a role in wether I support an issue or not. |
Originally Posted by Cornelius08
(Post 3383560)
Crokit, I dont hold a grudge against those who dont like ar, and I dont see any reason why anyone should hold one against those who support them.
I support it myself because the buck population has always been age poor here, and i think it would be worse without ar. I think if we had ar prior to hitting extremes with some of the reduction then kept the herd stable we would have seenmore gains with only some reduction. Another reason I support ar, is that I think that most do support ar, at least that is my opinion from those I hear from on the issues as well as overall on the message boards. My gripe, like i said is all the excess reduction. I dont think ar is a black and white issue....either right or wrong. I also dont think its a big "biological issue". I think it more a matter of hunter opinion as to wether it should or shouldnt be. I could be wrong, but I believe more than half would like to see it continue. Hunter desires may not mean much to pgc these days, but it does play somewhat of a role in wether I support an issue or not. I just happen to agree with AR's standing on it's own, without herd reduction issues and the nonsense that you guys are dealing with down in your neck of the woods. I don't know enough to comment on what you have on your hands, as is more than apparent neither do some who are on your side. Know what I mean? LMAO. Keep up the good fight. |
Last I knew the DEC alreadly regulates how we hunt on our private lands. They set our seasons, time frames, sex of animal, size of animal, bag limits, weapon used. So the DEC decides to stop Ar's that might possibly help the deer herd, and we applaud them for it?
|
just happen to agree with AR's standing on it's own, without herd reduction issues and the nonsense that you guys are dealing with down in your neck of the woods. |
So the DEC decides to stop Ar's that might possibly help the deer herd, and we applaud them for it? Its been determined that there is no compelling biological reason for AR in NY. Steve |
Originally Posted by bluebird2
(Post 3384362)
ARs without herd reduction will still result in a decease n the rack size of the average 2.5+ buck, so why would you or anyone else support it?
In fact I have data that indicates the antler size for 2 ˝ year old bucks from at least this part of the state have improved during recent years. Dick Bodenhorn |
Originally Posted by SteveBNy
(Post 3382204)
Could the Pa guys who have argued for 100's of threads and 1000's of repeated posts under who knows how many alter ego screen names, let the NY hunters have one thread to debate amongst themselves? You obviously can neither fix or agree on what Pa needs/doesn't need/wants or has done - how can you possibly hope to offer anything of value to NYer's?
I saw this post a few days ago and decided to respect the request. I'm sure you NY guys have all the opinion and facts you need from PA. Whatever happens in NY, I hope you guys don't wind up divided over it. Good luck and good hunting to all our neighbors to the north  |
Thanks BTB. Good luck to you all this year as well. Apparently you have the best/ worst hunting of anywhere.:s1:
It is easy to research what is going on in Pa - visit the NE forum here and try not to see opions:s2:. Its great that hunters are passionate - but the level it gets goes beyond passion and ofton into hardheaded nastiness. One thing that is obvious if you compare is that they are 2 very different areas - as claimed by all those who say findings from other states can't be used in Pa because you have unique dynamics. Works both ways. NY has seldom or ever had public discussions or calls for HR other then isolated urban settings, Our large tracks of forested land - mainly Adirondacks and Catskills - historically have low densities. In many units there, there are few if any does tags given. Never heard of a need to lower further for certification. AR there would effectively limit opportunities to where many hunters would just give up. The Alleghaney forested region in the SW part of the state consistantly produces one of the highest buck takes with a lot of real slammers every year. No strong biological case can be made for AR there. Just some thoughts on the differences in the 2. One thing for sure - topic brings division.:s1: Steve |
In fact I have data that indicates the antler size for 2 ˝ year old bucks from at least this part of the state have improved during recent years. Even Dr. Rosenberry said they don't have the data to show if ARs increased or decreased rack sizes so how did you collect better data that the professional teams that check deer processors? BTB, nice attempt at protecting RSB , but it didn't work. |
Bluebird - please( please was for Corny:D) take the Pa stuff to one of the countless Pa threads on the forum.
I am changing my original request (too strongly worded) for the Pa guys to give us a thread to the following: Input is greatly appreciated from anyone with knowledge of the herd, habitat, and biological needs of NYS - which vary greatly across the state and are somewhat unique to us in some areas. We are not looking to hear what is wrong/right in Pa in this thread unless there is a direct correlation to NY - and we all know cause so many claim that Pa is unique onto itself. Thank you Steve |
BTB, nice attempt at protecting RSB , but it didn't work. |
Gee,
Am I allowed to post to this thread or do I need to ask permission? Hang in there Bluebird. You got it right. |
Originally Posted by Maverick 1
(Post 3384844)
Gee,
Am I allowed to post to this thread or do I need to ask permission? Hang in there Bluebird. You got it right. What parts of NY do you hunt in and are family with the dynamics of? |
Post deleted
|
If you get booted Cornelius, I will stop posting here.
|
Sure - got anything to offer about the herd, habitats or biological need for AR in NYS? |
Careful Mav. This whiner will get you booted. Not sure, but Im guessing that is why my account is not working. I had trouble all day yesterday and couldn't get in. Back of my mind thought ole Corny might have something to do with it. Mav - still willing to hear what you know about NY that would help us. Well Steve, I guess you DO say who posts what and where? lmao. Of course backing it up would be nice - like your claim of knowing me from a board I don't frequent. Really does wonders for your credibility. |
AR is a complicated issue that cant be summarized easily but Here are a few thoughts meant to be constructive.
AR as a widespread law will never be perfect Of the 3 components of antler quality, nutrition, genetics and age, age has been shown to have the most effect. Broad AR is most likely to be beneficial where hunting pressure is killing off too many young bucks. The benefits of AR will be less apparent in areas where pressure is lighter and bucks have a chance to grow older. The size of first year antlers are not a good indicator of a bucks genetic potential and does have equal genetic input into antler quality Spread restrictions have been shown to be generally better than point counts in the long run. Rumors of AR causing "high grading" by taking the best young bucks have been shown to have no basis by respected wildlife professionals. I Don't know spit about your state but I tried to post some things that should be universally valuable for any hunter who is trying to decide whether AR is a good or bad thing in their area. Whoops! Gotta go! Got a conspiracy meeting so we can get to work keeping Corny from signing on again today:barmy: |
Steve,
You already have tried to silence everyone else that you don't agree with. I don't have the inclination, the time nor the patience to discuss things with you. |
No - I have asked that a thread about NY not become another PA whizzing contest.
Input for discussion from anyone familiar with the needs of the different areas of NY. I have offered my impressions on several of the different areas. Again - What can you offer for discussion about the herd, habitats or biological need for AR in NYS? What parts of NY do you hunt in and are family with the dynamics of? That is a direct invite to participate - hardly an attempt to silence anyone. Heck - I don't even know your position since you have not offered any. If you don't wish to participate, fine - but to blame me for not doing so is weak at best. Back to the conspiracy.:) Steve |
Rumors of AR causing "high grading" by taking the best young bucks have been shown to have no basis by respected wildlife professionals |
Well, looks like I may have been mistaken on the "booting". Dang thing wouldnt let ME log on at all yesterday after several attempts throughout the day, but would allow others to which I could see were online. I was also able to log on with a new sign on name cornelius08~ ...but not my regular id. Sorry for the accusing Steve-o, but it was the only thing that made sense.
Anyway, enjoy but dont expect to hear this again in the near future, for once....I WAS WRONG. Though with good reason. lol. |
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:23 PM. |
Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.