Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

What is wrong with the public hunting areas the great state of pa has.

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

Nothing, I like to hunt 141 and 168.If youventure more than 300 yards in the woods you have a good chance of seeing deer, and your chance of bagging a trophy buck are good on both areas, but you will really have to work for them.

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

What is wrong with SGLs is that they are being managed at the same deer density as SFL, where the land is being managed for timber production while the SGL are being managed for wildlife. Therefore, all the habitat work the PGC does on SGLs does nothing to increase the number deer on SGLs.

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

so the habitat isnt very good in your opinion

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

How in the world did you come to that conclusion? What I said was the habitat on SGLs is much better than the habitat on SFL ,yet the herd on SGLs is being managed at the same density as on SFL.

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

Well gezzz i dumb youve said that 100 times by know.

So its not the habitat but the deer density is being managed at?

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

No, I don't recall ever saying you are dumb. But just like many other hunters you had no good reason to question what the PGC was doing because deer hunting was good and we were setting record harvests. Now, the same habitat that was producing record harvests are producing the same buck harvests we had 40 years ago and breeding rates have decreased by 5%..

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

I do recall you calling stupid and such but anyway.

You mention breeding r ates have decline

I hate to say it But.... I have to agree from what i am seeing . Went for a ride around some of the land i have I saw 7 deer in one field Not 1 fawn . No sign of any growth on top of the noodle either . Thou i wouldnt mind 7 buck i 1 field . Some of the other fields havent been mowed yet. so dont know what is in there.some have corn
I havent seen many fawns around either.
I am not saying its the pgc fault yet maybe leaning that way . Havent totally ruled out the weather thou
something isnt working hope the pgc looks into it

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

What would you say has a greater impact on recruitment, a cool wet spring or reducing the number of adult doe by 35-40% ? As the average age of the female population is reduced, breeding rates and recruitment decreases. The PGC has been encouraging hunters to pass on fawns to protect BB and harvest an adult doe instead. The obvious result is lower breeding rates and recruitment!

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

I would say it hurting the deer population no fawns = no buttonbucks either.

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

I agree!!

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

As usual BB is full of it.Many ,if not most of our state forests are in the dmap program which allocates thousands more tags to be used there.Because of that alone,it's ridiculous to claim that our state forests and SGL's are being managed at thesame dd goals.

In response to your question,there's nothing worng with the public lands in Pa.

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

I did not say they were being managed at the same DD goals. Obviously the goal on SFL is lower than on SGLs. But ,in order to achieve the goal on SFL, the SGLs are managed at the same DD as SFL. There is absolutely no evidence that proves DMAP are effective at reducing DD on SFL more than the herd is being reduced on SGL and the SCS audit make that exact point. Furthermore the SCS audit required DCNR to reduce the herd even in old growth or bioreserve areas that are not managed for timber.

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

Hmm.It sounds to me like you're trying to claim that the SGL's are being managed for the same dd's and the state forests.Like I pointed out,that's total nonsense because the state forests get additional antlerless tags to reduce the herd even more.On top of that,much of the state forests timber sales are fenced to keep the deer out and there are very little habitat improvement projects done there.In contrast,our SGL'S do not get extra tags and there are a myriad of habitat improvements to benefit both deer and other wildlife.

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

What you fail to realize is that there is a huge difference between managing the land and the habitat compared to managing the herd. I have been saying all along that the CC of SGLs is much higher than SFL , but the herd on both SFL and SGL are managing at the same density goal by the PGC . The fact is you can not provide one single piece of data that shows conclusively that DMAP tags have been effective at reducing the DD on SFL below that of adjoining SGL.

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

It doesn't matter.The fasct that they're targeting more tags for the state forests prove that the state forests are being managed for less deer.

You don't have alot of experience hunting on SGL's and state forests do you?Fortunately for the purpose of this discussion,I do.

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

No, what it proves is that DCNR is attempting to manage SFL for less deer than SGL. There is no evidence to date that shows they have been effective in accomplishing that goal.
That may be true but you still don't know what you are talking about because you only hunt where the deer are, and avoid the areas there are very few deer.

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

Shazam! What an idea!




Better keep this a secret or pretty soon every one will try it.[:o]

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

Unfortunately most cannot do that Jim. There are very few areas on Public land where decent deer numbers exist and there are hundreds of thousands of hunters.

There also is NOT room for further harvest by hunters suddenly "seeing the light" without causing further reduction due to current herd size, and the fact the herd is ALREADY being reduced with hunter "skill levels" already, as is.

The solution??

Less tags to allow herd growth.

SHAZAM!:D

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

That's not true at all.I hunt turkeys and bear almost exclusively on state land.On top of that,I also putclose to a couple hundred miles a year on horse trails in those same areas.

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

Wrong.That may be true on the 2% of Greene county that consists of publicland but it's not even close to being true on the state land in 2G.

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

Here are the FLIIR results for Elk SF. YOU LOSE!!!!!


Area Acres Sq. Miles Date
Completed Deer Seen Avg. Deer /
Sq. Mile Highest
Density
Elk State Forest 23,175 36.21 18-Mar-06 446 12.32 55
SGL 14 15,150 23.67 18-Mar-06 191 8.07 38
SGL 311 1,485 2.32 18-Mar-06 28 12.07 33

SGL 14 had 8.07 DPSM while the SF had 12.32. So much for your theories about DMAP.

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

OK,just cherry pick the ones that support your misguided position.

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

Doug, I wasnt speaking of Greene county in particular nor was I speaking of public land alone.

There is no room generally speaking for the STATEWIDE harvest to go any higher without further reducing the herd, since we have been ALREADY with our relatively low harvest due to low herd size.

If you add to the harvest wether its in Greene, or any other county, public land or private... The overall statewide deer population would decline because of it. Thats all I was saying. And I think we need that about as much as we need another a-hole.:D Now I wouldnt be opposed to further reduction in some of the urban areas that have the access problems and actually need it. But if responsible management were to take place.....most areas are long overdue for some herd growth, and that growth would counter, numberwise any reductions made where needed since the areas in need of increase are FAR higher than the few tiny pockets of the state that need more reduction, so basically we'd have more deer overall than we had now, with MORE being where they should be, but still less in the areas in most need of reduction.

As for "gamelands", I believe the poor hunting there is due to statewide mismanagement. Of course there, due to the extra hunting pressure, the effects of the failed plan are magnified. Though the maleffects to varying extents can readily be seen just about anywhere other than off limits or highly regulated lands. If the econuts had their way, without a doubt we would have the same pathetic stateforest and gameland low or lower deer densities on every inch of our states land.

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

I dont see cherry picking doug. I see data that backs the mans position. Why are those gamelands not being managed for "game"?

They sure as hell are NOT judging by those numbers.

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

Feel free to cherry pick a SGL adjacent to a DMAP SF that supports your misguided position.

If DMAP worked as you claim it does , there shouldn't be any SF with more deer than adjacent SGLs.

In 2005 no SFL surveyed had as low a density as SGL 14 in 2006!!!!!

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

You've never even been to these areas and I spend alot of time there.Take elk state forest.Some areas have alot of deer,some have none because the habitat is so poor in those areas.I kill at least one deer a year on Elk state forest.In the lastfour years,I've seen a grand total of one other hunter on that state forest.Hunters aren't reducing the herd period in these areas,with or without dmap.

Like I said,You're cherry picking one or two gamelands.Come and check out sgl 93,77,54 AND 44.Way more than 14 dpsm

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

You are the typical PGC know it all who dismisses all the facts and bases his opinion on his personal observations and theories. There is absolutely no way for any hunter to determine the deer density in any given WMU ,SGL or SFL based on observations during hunting season. The FLIR studies and the PGC harvest data are the only viable measures of DD so in my book your personal opinions and observation carry no weight

As yet you have provided absolutely nothing to support your claim that DMAP tags have produced lower DDs on SFL than on SGLs.

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

No it is you who is dismissing al of the facts and has no idea at all what is really going on in ANY area of unit 2G or the other big woods areas for that matter.

I am very familiar with SGL # 14 and I can tell you right up front that it has few deer because it is a remote hard to access area where the deer herd has been GROSSLY under harvested for at least the past twenty to thirty years.

Besides hunters failing to access the remote areas of SGL # 14 the game lands is also bordered by about 19 square miles of private land that has never allowed doe hunting. For many years the large doe herd from that private land bleed over onto the game lands and even further destroyed the habitat. But, following the hard winters of 2002/2003 and 2003/2004 the deer herd in that once lived on that 19 square mile tract of private land crashed to some of the lowest deer numbers in the entire area and now seem to be even lower then the deer numbers on the long time under harvested and habitat depleted areas of SGL # 14.

Things might start to recover on both SGL # 14 and that piece of private land though in the near future. The private land has just recently been sold and the new owners are in the process of opening about 10,000 acres of it to public. That should result in much better deer management and habitat improvement on both that land and the surrounding game lands for the future.

There is also evidence that deer numbers are higher on the game lands of this area then on the private land and National Forest lands during recent years. In fact I just checked and the volunteer wildlife survey routes
show 8.2% more deer on game lands in 2006, 12.7% more in 2007 and 25.9% in 2008 then what were seen per square mile on private lands combined with the National Forest of Elk County.

R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

You just admitted the SGL 14 is so poorly managed by the PGC that it can't support more than 8 OWD PSM. The experts say that the typical stand of northern hardwoods managed for timber, not wildlife, will support 40 OWD DPSM . Furthermore, if you had a clue you would know that the doe in 2G had the third highest productivity of any WMU, which means that the herd is way below the MSY CC of the habitat.

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

Let's see thatlink showing how the experts agree that a typical stand of mature hardwoods will support 40 dpsm with no damage to the habitat.

How many rodkilled doe did they find adjacent to SGL 14?

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

Now you are just being silly ,because you can not provide one bit of evidence that shows SFLs have lower DDs than SGLs.

We both know that the biodiversity CC of northern hardwoods is only 8 DPSM and that 40 DPSM is the MSY CC. But in 2G where the herd is being managed at around 8-9 DPSM the forest health is still rated poor the the amount of regeneration is decreasing rather than increasing.

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

You're off your freakin rocker.There have been huge improvements in many areas wwhere the deer herd has been reduced to less than 10 owdpsm.That's precisely why DCNR isdn't having to fence many of there cuts in this area for the first time in years.The dmap the state forests to lower the dd even further.

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

Now don't get all flustered just because the experts at the PGC disagree with you. Just take a look at the recent issue of deer chronicles and see for yourself that regeneration in 2G decreased instead of increasing. Since the PGC bases the allocation of doe tags on herd and forest health, it is very unlikely they will allow the herd to increase even if there is some improvement in the understory.

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

Actually you don’t know that at all and are doing nothing more then taking some EXTREMELY general information about a very few habitat and deer densities studies and trying to apply that on a large scale.

Your generalizations in the application of the limited subject research are simply not an accurate representation of reality within any of the various units of management.

In other words you simply have no idea what you are talking about most of the time. You are proving that wildlife and habitat management are simply beyond your capacity of knowledge and understanding.

R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

You are in no position to question any one else's knowledge since 12 out of 12 of your predictions were wrong !!

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

Right there is yet another perfect example of how little you actually know and how out of touch you are with the realities of habitat and deer populations.

It is you the wildlife and habitat management experts are and have been disagreeing with. You just don’t get it because you think you know a lot more about how it all works then you do. You don’t seem to have any real knowledge of how nature really works or how variable nature is. You base everything on studies that have provided some general research information and then try to make everything in nature respond to your mathematical conclusions. Nature doesn’t respond to your mathematical calculations of conclusions and instead works within the reality of many changing variables.

It isn’t even a question of the Game Commission allowing or not allowing more deer. The number of deer is determined by the ability of the food supply to sustain more or fewer deer day after day all year long and that is very flexible based on a multitude of variables within reality. That is how nature works. You nor the Game Commission can change that fact no matter what you are anyone else thinks should be happening.

R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

LMAO, RSB!!!!! You just stole a page from the PGC's SOP manual on the HR fiasco and actually tried to use it on someone else! Take very general statements/ research from a few localized habitats and write an extermination order for deer statewide based on it. That was a beautiful synopsis of the PGC basis for HR and the current deer plan, and I actually couldn't have said it better myself. Much appreciated.;)Still LMAO!

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

Isn't it a friggin shame that DCNR has had to spend $3 million put fences up around cuts in the past?<<<<<<INSERT SARCASM

I say put the fences up. It creates JOBS erecting them and maintaining them. Pay for these fences through a tax on the greenie econuts that are willing to pay extra $$$ for Green Certified lumber. They have no qualms about paying premium prices for their eco-lumber, they'd no doubt be jumping for joy overpaying a little extra for fencing to. A win-win all theway around.:)

He11, let 'em pay for liming to.;) I'm sick and tired of carrying the load for these freaks.[:@]

RE: Whats wrong with the gamelands?
 

OK,just a few localized habitats were negatively overbrowsed by deer.That there is funny.then again,it;s not surprising coming from a guy that expects a kid to be able to kill a buck every year on opening day by noon,most likely from the same stand as well.