RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

No state that I am aware of expresses there deer harvest in harvests per square mile. But, anyone capable of fifth grade math should be able to divide the total state deer harvest by the number of square miles of land mass in the state to figure out what the harvest per square mile was.
I do that for every WMU in the state, as well as the entire state, every year. I also do the same for other states when it is desired to compare one state to another in a fair and equal manner.

Last year’s Pennsylvania deer harvest was 335,850 so if you divide that by the 45,301.78 square miles of land, city streets and some water areas included, you get the 7.41 deer harvested per square mileas I posted.

You can do the same for any state, of other management unit, you desire provided you know the harvest and the size of the state or unit. It makes thing more comparable on an apples to apples comparison instead of expressing things in the apples to pumpkins comparison a lot of you try to do.

R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

The simple fact that you are using total harvests instead of buck harvests makes your data totally irrelevant. If a state is allowing their herd to increase the total harvest will be much less than a state where the herd was being reduced as in PA.
The only valid comparison is to compare the buck harvest PSM.

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

Calling the total harvest irrelevant is just plain silly.That hypothetical state looking for an increase is either non existent or very rare. If there is indeed a state trying to grow it's herd,please tell us which state that is.

The statement above looks like an attempt at more smoke and mirrors to divert attention from the real facts[:'(]

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

I didn't say any state was managing for an increase in the herd, but what matters is whether the harvest reduced the herd or allowed the herd to increase. The PGC has been trying to reduce our herd since 1988, yet the herd increased to a all time record of 1.6M deer.

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

never mind.

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

He'll have all summer to sift through it, so he's ready to advise Bolgiano and Co. on their next lawsuit, like he did on their current one.

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

In other words, this "what if" example you gave.....

Is irelevant except to attempt to cloud the issue.

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

It makes thing more comparable on an apples to apples comparison instead of expressing things in the apples to pumpkins comparison a lot of you try to do.

R.S. Bodenhorn

how would you compare hunter satisfaction in Pa. to any other state right now??? Apples to skyscrapers?

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

The buck harvest is the basis for determining deer density in every population model and the anterless harvest is determined by the number of antlerless tags issued,rather than the DD

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

The reason no other state does, infact no one person for that matter,atleast anyone smarter than a 5th grader (other than you that is) does not calculate deer harvest per square mile is because it is totally useless to do so without excluding area's such as Philly. Pittsburgh, Harrisburg, York, Reading, Allentown, Lancaster, etc.,etc, etc., and other urban area's where deer hunting is not taking place. And for you to claim that PA. has a similar DD. as OH. is laughable considering the fact that 450,000 OH. deer hunters harvested around 70,000 less deer than 900,000 + PA. deer hunters did last season. Pike

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

I’d compare hunter satisfaction in this state as about the same as it has been for the past fifty years and pretty much on par with hunter opinions and comments in most of the other major deer hunting states of the intermediate northern tier.

I have been listening to a segment of the Pennsylvania hunters complaining about no deer and poor deer management every single year for the past fifty years, since I was old enough to be interested in conversations of hunters. It appears to me that there are fewer hunters complaining now then what frequently occurring in the past. It is just that now we have the internet so a few vocal complainers can make it sound like they are a lot more in numbers then they really are.

I have been talking to large numbers of hunters during field checks, sportsmen meeting and many other general contacts as a repetitive of the Game Commission for over thirty years and it is perfectly obvious in those contacts that more hunters have both a better understanding and acceptance of the deer management principle and practices today then ever in the past. Though there are still some that don’t get it and never will because they simply reject any information that could make them more knowledgeable of the total deer management subject.

And, if you think hunters in other states don’t complain about the deer management in their states you are mistaken. The lack of hunter knowledge and resulting complaining about deer management isn’t unique to Pennsylvania, there are people in every state that reject the knowledge of the professionals and even the evidence the deer themselves prove.

R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

You obviously haven’t been paying much attention to where the most deer per square mile are being harvested around this state. The areas around those cities are some of the highest deer harvest areas in the state. That is why many of them have to hire sharp shooters to the kill the deer the hunters can’t get enough of.

And, I certainly can’t help it that Ohio doesn’t have as many hunters as Pennsylvania. I suspect even if we only had half as many hunters as we have in this state (about the same number as Ohio presently has) our deer harvests would still be about the same amount higher then Ohio’s harvest. The only difference is we would have to allow hunters all over the state to harvest more deer then they can presently get permits to harvest. In all states the total number of hunters in the state are provided with the seasons and bag limits to harvest the desired number of deer.

Pennsylvania deer season and methods are structured to get the desired number of deer harvested with 900,000 plus hunters just as the Ohio season and regulations are structured to get their desired harvest with only half that many hunters. If either state fails to get the desired harvest they will add seasons, bag limits or other options to the hunting tools to get that desired harvest, no matter how many or how few hunters they have. That same thing is true for every state, they will work with the number of hunters they have and provide them with the tools to reach their harvest objectives. States with fewer hunters just allow their hunters to take more deer per hunter, just as we do here in the special regulations areas.

Therefore, your arguments about the number of hunters in one state verses another is just a no point argument. Deer harvests and deer management is all based on getting the correct number of deer harvested regardless of how many hunters are participating in that harvest objective.

R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

Just to clarify here gino is right. You can take 12.... plus some with other special permits and special hunts. it'd take a lot of time/travel/land and stuff to get 12, but if you hunt around the state you can get that many. Only 1 can be antlered.
-Jake

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

"I’d compare hunter satisfaction in this state as about the same as it has been for the past fifty years and pretty much on par with hunter opinions and comments in most of the other major deer hunting states of the intermediate northern tier. "

Youre nuts and flat out lying. been hanging with a few others here I guess. You know damn well the hunter satisfaction is the worse in the nation and its definately at an all time low HERE. LMAO. Thats one of the biggest whoppers Ive seen come out of your keyboard. And thats not "difference of opinion" that is a blatant lie on your part. Damage control as usual. Desparation tactics.


"I have been listening to a segment of the Pennsylvania hunters complaining about no deer and poor deer management every single year for the past fifty years,"

You're full of it. Compared to the last 3 decades that Im very aware of, nothing could be further from the truth. Hunter satisfaction used to be right on par with most other states. That is, most other states that arent being sued, legislative intervention preventing fee increase, having hunter numbers drop at double national average, an having petitioning nonstop for a decade, pgc personell needing bullet proof vests, nationally well known "deer wars"....Did I mention you are full of beans?

Trying to paint a pretty picture youve tried to do unsuccessfully on internet message boards for nearly a decade now nonstop. So his ecoextreme views can be fulfilled and we "stay the course' with the deer slaughter for audubon & timber. Just like bagdad bob who claimed all was great on camera to keep his homeland troops morale up. Saying they were doing fine and going to win the war as the bombs hit all around him and buildings crumbled. What you are doing and have been rsb, is just as rediculous. LMAO.

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

"A county like Greene was under the 3 point rule where you got automatic credit for a brow tine. The 2002 harvest only dropped 140 deer from 2001. Starting in 2003 Greene fell under the 4 point rule and a brow tine had to really exist. The 2003 buck harvest was little more than half of what it was in 2002. That did not mean there suddenly was half as many deer in Greene County. The new AR's were the reason."

Ar was not the reason why we are harvesting fewer bucks. After the first year or so after being saved the majority of the bucks would then be legal. So the harvest wouldve returned to NEAR normal levels if all else were equal (no reduction) because the only way we would lose harvest would be an additional year of mortality, and the tiny percent of bucks that would never become legal.

The rediculous reason we are harvesting 109-125k buck is because of grossly extreme unnecessary levels of reduction having effected recruitment.

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

Not really. Both states have plenty of urban areas. Ohio has Cleveland, Columbus, Cinncinnatti, Toledo,Youngstown, Dayton, Zanesville, Akron, Stuebenville etc etc etc.

BTW, in PA and probably Ohio as well, those urban areas are actually producing agood number ofdeer and they alsoget included in those numbers.

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

There it is again!. Everyone who has a different viewpoint from the Cornboy is, according to him, lying!
A persons opinion based on life experiences can be different from another and it is merely a difference of opinion. It is a lie, however, to declare the opinion and experiences of another to be a lie without providing proof.

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

My only issue with that part of your response is, all else could never be equal. It does not give the animal we're after its due respect. I believe it is a given { if not, we're kidding ourselves } that antlered deer become increasingly wary the older they're allowed to become. After the first year, I believe, through instinctive reasoning,{ Before all the experts chime in with " deer can't reason " I'm talking about the instinct to reason that the thing walking on two legs is out to kill 'em, I'm safer in the thicket rather than in the field where the " pumpkins" are} they become harder to harvest; second to third year I've seen written nearly 5x harder than the first, and third year and beyond, it is off the charts.

Just my opinion, but it seems that this HAS to be included in the equation, even if all the facts being brought forward by those opposing the AR's or in favor of the AR's is accurate. By the way, I'm not challenging those facts as I don't know enough about the figures being presented. But, I do know about the scenario I presented above. Not a professional opinion, but a student of the game.

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

"Not really. Both states have plenty of urban areas. Ohio has Cleveland, Columbus, Cinncinnatti, Toledo,Youngstown, Dayton, Zanesville, Akron, Stuebenville etc etc etc.
BTW, in PA and probably Ohio as well, those urban areas are actually producing a good number of deer and they also get included in those numbers. "

And add to that the fact the entire north western region of Ohio is nothing but cropland, etc. And after harvest, very little wooded area. The deer density and harvest is very low there as a result.

"There it is again!. Everyone who has a different viewpoint from the Cornboy is, according to him, lying! "

NO. When someone lies they are lying. I dont care if you like it or not. It is what it is. To say you think Pa hunting is great is "different viewpoint than cornboy" and I wouldnt say liar for it. Though if you say 1+1=9, or the vast majority of Pennsylvanias hunters are happy with current situation, and are no more dissatisfied than theyve been in 50 years as rsb stated, its simply a complete mistruth. Its that simple. And we all know how familiar YOU are with lying dont we? LMAO.:eek:

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

"My only issue with that part of your response is, all else could never be equal."

Sure it could. Because what was meant was if the herd were held "stable" from year to year, but we were not, we were reducing at the time which is why harvests declined. And still are.

"Just my opinion, but it seems that this HAS to be included in the equation, even if all the facts being brought forward by those opposing the AR's or in favor of the AR's is accurate. By the way, I'm not challenging those facts as I don't know enough about the figures being presented. But, I do know about the scenario I presented above. Not a professional opinion, but a student of the game."

On an individual basis...hunter against mature buck, youre correct it would be "harder" to harvest them. But we arent we are talking about 900,000 hunters hunting those bucks and the huge majority are killed. And the majority of those are not old mature animals but simply half of the yearlings and a huge percentage that are 2.5. The numbers of 2.5+ buck are LOWER now then they were in early 2000's and that goes for 3.5 and older as well according to pgc harvest data, and also is only common sense with so much lower recruitment do to so many fewer doe, plus a decline in fawning rate.

Btw, just in case youre not aware I am FOR ar. But NOT for the extreme amount of reduction we have gotten and continue to get.

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

Deer hunter complaintsfrom other states.

Wisconsin:


http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/36116624.html


http://www.wrn.com/gestalt/go.cfm?objectid=FE2EA86C-5056-B82A-37E06026F714A9B3


http://www.wrn.com/gestalt/go.cfm?objectid=AC0C72B7-5056-B82A-3721A6A2E5087ABA


http://www.wrn.com/gestalt/go.cfm?objectid=28F9DB59-5056-B82A-372200D0F92C5D08


http://www.rhinelanderdailynews.com/articles/2009/04/07/outdoors/doc49db5624dca0c506805057.txt


www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/42699192.html][/url]http://dev.www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/42699192.html

Those all sound like they could have been written right here in Pennsylvania by and about Pennsylvania hunting and hunters.

Michigan:


http://www.michiganoutdoornews.com/articles/2006/02/02/news/news2.prt


http://www.woods-n-waternews.com/Letters-14664.112113_I_support_the_early_antlerless_season .html


http://www.michiganoutdoornews.com/articles/2006/02/02/news/news1.txt


California:


http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/deer/comments.html


Even this sounds like Pennsylvania hunters wrote the complaints.

Minnesota:


http://www.startribune.com/sports/outdoors/42452747.html?
elr=KArksi8cyaiUgOahccyiUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aULPQL7PQLanc hO7DiUr


North Carolina:


http://www2.hickoryrecord.com/content/2009/jan/16/hunters-speak-out-against-proposed-change-deer-sea/sports-other/


There are many, many more pages that I haven’t had the time to review yet, but this should be enough to keep everyone busy for a while.

Most certainly hunters complaining about deer management isn’t just a problem in Pennsylvania. In fact it looks as though there are groups of hunters in most of the deer population states that refuse to understand or accept their state’s deer management objectives.

R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

Most certainly hunters complaining about deer management isn’t just a problem in Pennsylvania. In fact it looks as though there are groups of hunters in most of the deer population states that refuse to understand or accept their state’s deer management objectives.

Their families probably all originally emigrated therefrom PA, a few generations ago? :)

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

WOW sounds just like a bar in NC PA on the Monday night after Thanksgiving!

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

Iwonder what their vote forworst deer state in the nation was.

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

It wouldn't have mattered. They werent running that poll;)

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

RSB. stop trying to spin everything, im not talking about the area's around those cities, im talking about the cities themselves.
For Example the city of York is approx 6 square miles in size and there isnt any deer being harvested within the city limits!!
Your other flaw in using deer harvest per sqaure mile is the state's of PA., NJ., OH., etc. all have different amounts of square miles of cities and towns were 0 deer live (again not talikng about the suburbs were deer are living in peoples back yards) so you are comparing apples to
oranges, for example a much higher % of the state of NJ. is paved and void of deer than PA.

RSB. Said""""""""""""""""And, I certainly can’t help it that Ohio doesn’t have as many hunters as Pennsylvania. I suspect even if we only had half as many hunters as we have in this state (about the same number as Ohio presently has) our deer harvests would still be about the same amount higher then Ohio’s harvest."""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""


LMAO!!! If OH. had another 145,000 deer hunters (which would be a total of 595,000 deer hunters) they would have harvested more deer than our 900,000 + hunters did last season, and our hunters are armed with high powered rifles and we have a 2 week RIFLE season and OH. hunters only have a 9 day shotgun or inline season.
Also since PA. has alot more hunters hunting per square mile than OH. and creating alot more hunting preasure per square mile which as you know forces the deer to get on their feet and move (and a deer's odd's of being harvested are far greated when they are forced to move)
The less hunting preasure the higher % of the herd can stay bedded all day long during legal shooting hours and only move when using the cover of darkness!! ( I hate the word Nocturnal)


RSB. said """""""""""""""""""""""Pennsylvania deer season and methods are structured to get the desired number of deer harvested with 900,000 plus hunters just as the Ohio season and regulations are structured to get their desired harvest with only half that many hunters. If either state fails to get the desired harvest they will add seasons, bag limits or other options to the hunting tools to get that desired harvest, no matter how many or how few hunters they have. That same thing is true for every state, they will work with the number of hunters they have and provide them with the tools to reach their harvest objectives. States with fewer hunters just allow their hunters to take more deer per hunter, just as we do here in the special regulations areas.

Therefore, your arguments about the number of hunters in one state verses another is just a no point argument. Deer harvests and deer management is all based on getting the correct number of deer harvested regardless of how many hunters are participating in
that harvest objective."""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" ""


Once again LMAO!! The PGC. isnt concerned if the herd is over harvested and the ODNR is each and every year. Also the PGC.'s bag limits, seasons, methods, antlerless tags issued etc. isnt much different than they were in 2002 but the 2002 deer harvest and the 2008 deer harvest sure is!!
RSB. can you or anyone else provide us with the total deer harvest for the 2002 season? Pike

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

517,529 Grand Total 2002 Deer Harvest

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

Hello McFly! Anybody in there? Twice as many hunters means less deer per hunter and therefore a lower per hunter success rate.

If ten people sit down at the barbecue and there's 8 burgers, someone aint gettin one! It's a simple enough principle[&:]


BTW, unless you have numbers to back up your idea that Ohio has more land with no deer, that arguement is meaningless. Oh and York may not have any deer within it's city limits wen a highly urbanized city like Pittsburgh has plentywithin it's city limitsand, yes, a substantial kill comes out of there every year. I'd bet that some live in and get hunted within the limits of York as well.

I took a minute to look at each states area and population. Ohio has 11.5 million people spread over 41, 000 square miles and Pa has 12.5 million people spread over 45,000 square miles Thats a human population difference on 2 per square mile ( 280 Ohio vs 278 for PA) so an arguement about cities being in the total of both states is totally insignificant.

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

BT. why is it for the last 5 decades or so in PA. the highest daily deer harvest's have always been on the first day of rifle season, the 2nd day of rifle season, the first saturday of rifle season and the last saturday of rifle season?


BT. said""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""BTW, unless you have numbers to back up your idea that Ohio has more land with no deer, that arguement is meaningless. Oh and York may not have any deer within it's city limits wen a highly urbanized city like Pittsburgh has plenty within it's city limits and, yes, a substantial kill comes out of there every year. I'd bet that some live in and get hunted within the limits of York as well.

I took a minute to look at each states area and population. Ohio has 11.5 million people spread over 41, 000 square miles and Pa has 12.5 million people spread over 45,000 square miles Thats a human population difference on 2 per square mile ( 280 Ohio vs 278 for PA) so an arguement about cities being in the total of both states is totally insignificant."""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """"""""""""""""""""


BT. I never said that OH. has more land with no deer ( please re read my last post!! And stop trying to spin what I said!) What I said was that for example a higher % of the state of NJ. was made up of area's that had no deer compared to PA., OH. on the other hand (and by the way you just proved my point here!!) has a lower % of land with no deer than PA.
And your 100% right about different cities in different states such as York and Pittsburgh being different!! Thats my point as well!! You cannot compare different urban area's such as York, Pittsburgh, Philly, Trenton, Patterson,Newark, Cleveland, Cinci and Columbus etc. because they are all different!!!! These reasons that you yourself pointed out is why RSB. trying to compare the deer harvest per square mile is useless!!
The only way to fiquire out deer harvest per square mile is to subtract every square inch of land (downtown of cities, walmart parking lots, roads, etc) that doesnt have any deer in each state
and then every square inch that hunting deer isnt permitted and or the discharge of firearms/bows/ weapons etc. is prohibited, and then fiqure out the deer harvest per square mile with the land that is remaining in each state.
By the way is it legal to discharge a firearm with in the city limits of Pittsburgh? Because it isnt legal to discharge a fire arm or bow within the city limits of York.

Manyspurs, Thanks for the info on the 2002 deer harvest!!!! Pike

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

I think I have seen enough proof of hunter dissatisfaction with the PGC locally, in print, and on the internet to justify calling RSB a liar when he tries to tell us that this is not the case.

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

Jeff, I wasnt trying to mischaracterize what you said but this post from page 1 sure sounds like you're comparing Ohio to pa in exactly that way

The only state you mention is Ohio when telling us that the deer density shouldn't be compared with PA because of all those cities.
If I misunderstood what you said there please enlighten us.

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

All one needs to do is look at the top of the page to see several documented links posted by RSB to back up whathe said.

On the other hand, you havent backed up your accusation that he's lying[:'(]with anything.

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

I know very few folks that are happy about the current management situation. And it's not just hunters that are complaining. I hear it from hunters, non-hunters and PGC employees. I don't care whether I'm in a nightclub, at the grocery store, a hardware store, at a sportsmans meeting, or wherever I might be at the time, people by a very big margin are very unhappy with the program.

I just can't understand where these claims come from that try to exhibit just how happy people really are.[:o]It baffles me.[&o]

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

There isnt even close the quantity of hunter disgust in the ENTIRE nation as there is in Pa. Are there hunters occasionally miffed in other states over small issues? OF course. Have there been even here previously? OF course.

But nowhere has there been DEER WARS, + MANAGEMENT GETTING THEIR ARSES SUED + LEGISLATIVE INERVENTION PREVENTING FUNDING + AUDIT + MANAGEMENT NEEDING TO WEAR BULLET PROOF VESTS! LOL, + HUNTER NUMBERS DECLINING AT DOUBLE THE NATIONAL AVERAGE + HUGE MAJORITY OF ALL HUNTERS DISSATISFIED + Etc etc.


Nowhere else on earth. And on the internet, need I start listing hunter disgust links? Im sure I could outnumber those from every other state combined by double.


anyone doubting, simply go to the other regional forums on this site and compare the content to northeasts Pa posts! lmao.[:'(]

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

Corne How can you say with any amount of certainty. The whole nation doesn't have the quantity of hunter disgust as pa does. Please post your link because i couldn't google or yahoo that.
I highly doubt your statement has any amount of TRUTH.

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

Of coarse he is certain, He has polling data to back up his claims.

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

I am sure he has data to back that statement up

Lets see it

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

Has any other wildlife agency been sued by their hunters? Has the legislature in any other state mandated an audit of their deer management program?

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

Unlessyou didn’t bother to read the links I provided orarereading deficient you should have been able to find both Legislative and legal intervention in at some of the other state deer management programs.

I found it when I was researching the links so I know it is there.

R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
 

D ick,

What is the point you are trying to make?