RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

These things are all improvements to current situation. Only thing, Id stop DEAD on the COLA deal, unless The boc situation were rectified and fixed in a meaningful manner as you state in the change selection process for BOC line above, without that measure, ABSOLUTELY NO WAY IN HADES!! (LOL). Even if boc selection process were addressed, then Id be a bit hesitant on a colabecause that is one heckuva big leap of faith. That would basically say that pgc gets paid more routinely, no matter what they do.

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

blkpwder a cola is a clause that states that the agency would be regularly granted small fee increases instead of needing approval for one larger fee increase every ten years or so. Currently the fish/game committee must approve license fee increases. If a cola were to be added, no further approval would be needed. Pgc could do as they like and still get paid fee increases no matter what they do, wether we or anyone else liked it or not.

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

COLA is an acronym for cost of living adjustment. Probably not the best choice of terms in this context. What I meant was a mechanism to adjust license fees for inflation without it becoming a political football for the state legislature

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

Yes.

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

Unfortunately btb with a cola, not only do you remove that legislative interference, you also further remove the voice of the hunter. The only legitimate voice we currently have with pgc is through those same legislators. Because they cannot completely ignore them as they do us.

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

I agree that we are all entitled to a viewpoint. Mine would be that it's a new and different weapon and that if found to be more effective than the current archery equipment, handle it accordingly.

My point is not necessarily anti crossbow. More that any "new opportunities" shouldn't be at the expense of seasons and opportunities already established

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

Three day doe season in some WMU's
Seperate method of anterless tags on SGL's and some other public land
Better laws on tresspassing
make it law to never allow all day spring turkey hunting:D
more habitat improvement for grouse
a program like the midwest to open more private land to hunting
make changes or methods of the BOC

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

I wouldn't mind seeing public and private antlerless tags being seperate.DCNRdoes it now with dmap along with several of the larger timber companies.It would take amore manpower to individually manage the SGL's though.

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

I think there would be widespread support for seperating public land from private when it comes to doe tag allocations. Perhaps the simple way to go is to use DMAP exclusively for allocating doe permits for public ground.

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

IMHO both the PGC and DCNR would be against it, since neither thinks there aren't enough deer on public land.

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

Gotta thank you both for the explanation! Just never heard that term before.[/align]

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

I'm just a little surprised. It's only because in a couple of your reply's,you made reference to shorten the archery season if needed.[/align]Not too many people would ask that,especially archery season.[/align]

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

Yes, shorten the season IF NEEDED. If it is found that the archery season is having an adverse effect on the overall health of the deer, you have to do something. What are you going to do? It is probally a mute point anyway. Do you really think our commission is going to come out and say we are killing too many deer? That isn't going to happen until there is a big turnover of people on Elmerton avenue with a whole new and different attitude.

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

I understand your point and I respect it. I may not agree with it but, I understand. This probally one of those times where we agree to disagree and I am alright with that. I already knew that I wasn't going to change your mind or anyone elses for that matter. It's not like I am on some sort of mission. Some times you just feel like you need to make your opinion heard. Maybe sometimes you just feel the need to show people that there are different ways of looking at things.

Also, I know what your stance is on crossbows. From your previous post, I know that you are not anti-cross bow. Myself, I am somewhere on the fence on this issue although I can't ever see myself using one. I am somewhat more of a traditionalist at heart. I have a compound but lately I have been using my fathers old recurve more often than not. No sights, no releases, and no mechanical advantage. When it comes to muzzleloading, I tend to think of myself as a traditionalist there as well. I carry a Tennesse Mountain Rifle. I shoot a patched round ball behind a charge of 90 grains of 3F Goex black powder. I don't ever see myself carrying an in-line rifle utilizing shotgun primers, plastic sabots, and black powder substitute. I don't really have a problem with those that do as long as they are safe and legal.

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

That just about sums it up for me to. Actually, a return to the way things were in 2000 would light the fire in my butt once again. I miss the traditions.

The changes that we Pa hunters have gone through since 2002 have been a tough period of time. The division between hunters has never been greater, and this latest issue on the crossbow has magnified that division tenfold. I never thought I'd see one faction of hunters accusing another faction of hunters of being lazy slobs, unethical, pigs, etc etc etc. Divided we are, and it almost seems as if we are losing ground each and every day. I believe many hunters are turning their backs on this situation, and becoming individualists and taking whatever nonsense that is dished out by the people that manage our wildlife and going from there and doing their own thing.

Whether you are a conspiricy theorist or a full fledged biodiversity supporter, we are all traveling down a very troubled path if this division continues.

That's my rant of the morning and I'm heading back to my cubicle.

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

Personally, I think the other group that got the sort shrift with the crossbow inclusion is the flintlockers. They've asked for a chance at an early flintlock seson for bucks for decades. They were never given even a hint of consideration.

The whole crossbow thing simply reeks. Not because of the weapon itself but because of the process by which it was included.

We need better BOC accountability but the crossbow inclusion railroad is a glaring example showing that pressure from the general assembly is NOT the best way to get things done[:@]

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

#1The changes that we Pa hunters have gone through since 2002 have been a tough period of time. The division between hunters has never been greater, and this latest issue on the crossbow has magnified that division tenfold. I never thought I'd see one faction of hunters accusing another faction of hunters of being lazy slobs, unethical, pigs, etc etc etc. Divided we are, and it almost seems as if we are losing ground each and every day. I believe many hunters are turning their backs on this situation, and becoming individualists and taking whatever nonsense that is dished out by the people that manage our wildlife and going from there and doing their own thing. X2

#2 Drop the inline and start an early flintlock seson for bucks only.

#3 Reduce sizes of WMU's.

#4 4 point rack rule statewideincludes youth or mentor hunts.

#5 reduce the CF gun buck season to 1 week then 3 day doe/buck in second week only. Can be regulated based on the outdated PGC deer count or kill statistics.

#6 if you sell huntinglicense, requirement to become a deer check station. All deer must be checkedin and banded.

#7 If I own property in PA and live out of state, opportunitnity to purchase resident license. Out of state property owners pay taxes!

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

A bit ironic dont you think? Coming from a guy who supported the crossbow, now you want to take away from other hunters.
According to you, we shouldwelcome the bow youlike but you want totakeawaythe kind of muzzleloader some others prefer. Kind of a double standard dont you think?


Agreed 100% I think there's only one guy here who disagrees with that one.

If a change gets made to AR, science has shown that spread is a better method. Leave the kids alone.

It'd be a cold day in hell before the gun season got shortened to a week in PA

Mandatory phone in or online reporting within 24 hours is working well in states with computerized license system with far less costs than check stations. No doubt our reporting system is terrible but check stations arent realistic

OK for the NR property only! Privileges for anywhere else based on reciprocal rates for the NR's state of residence. You only pay property taxes and maybe a little sales tax while you're here. You don't pay the loadresidents do... income tax, sales tax all year, occupational tax, per capita etc etc.

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

Personally I would like only 2 changes. #1 Go back to 1 antlered and 1 anterless deer per season. #2 Allow harvesting of either sex during the early muzzleloader season.

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

[/quote]

Mandatory phone in or online reporting within 24 hours is working well in states with computerized license system with far less costs than check stations. No doubt our reporting system is terrible but check stations arent realistic


Good morning BTB,What do you think of filling out a mandatory deer harvest report for the past season,before you fill out the info on the day you are purchasing your new license.I think this will give the PGC data to cross check the report cards that where turned in.

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

I think it's a very good idea blkpowder. No report no license.

One drawback might be that us old guys might have trouble remembering details like dates etc a year after if they want that stuff.

Maybe online or phone in reports either upon harvest or at seasons end with a computerized backup the next license buying season for those who forget.

IE:
1 report kills within 24 hours online or via phone
2 report due at end of season by phone or online even if no harvest

3 reporting either way gets you a confirmation number.

4 Next season, when you go to buy your license, if you didnt do those things above, your application gets flagged and you mustpay an extra fee (say $10 bucks or so) for the late report and report your harvest right then, right there before getting a license.

There'd be some learning curve time of, course, but I'd bet it could be running like a watch within 2-3 years with the proper POS license system in place.

We'd have virtually 100% accuracy with a minimum of expense. Maybe it would even save considerable $$When we consider how much time money and effort is currently expended checking processors and determining our abysmal reporting rate, one can't help think that it could save money too!

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

1 report kills within 24 hours online or via phone
2 report due at end of season by phone or online even if no harvest

3 reporting either way gets you a confirmation number.

4 Next season, when you go to buy your license, if you didnt do those things above, your application gets flagged and you mustpay an extra fee (say $10 bucks or so) for the late report and report your harvest right then, right there before getting a license.

There'd be some learning curve time of, course, but I'd bet it could be running like a watch within 2-3 years with the proper POS license system in place.


BTB,I think that would work very well. That having to pay extra if you get flagged, would be theinitiative tomake hunters report.[/align]

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

Why not make hunters pay a deposit up front. Make it $10, $30, or $50 or whatever you want. Make it payable when the license is purchased. Then, you don't get your deposit back until after you have made your report.

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

That will also work Maverick. However it's done,it will only be the fear of having to pay more that will make them fill a report.[/align]

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

On line would be the easiest and cheapest, and for all of you that want check stations forget about it, its a dumb expensive ,time and energy wasting failure that just does not need tried.
Incentives will help but I'm not sure what is incentive enough?

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

What good is knowing how many dead dear there is when they don't know how many live deer we have? You have to have an estimate before the number of dead deer will actual have a reason to do it. So that talk about the mumbo jumbo of reports is bull crap without an estimate number to begin with.They won't give you a number of deer because they don't have a clue or they want you to be clueless as they continue the deer slaughter to make you believe there are more deer than we can kill with all the deer tags being given out. 2G was cut in half for does for one reason and only one reason. To cover their asses when the deer harvest numbers plumetted to a way below harvest number from previous years. Now they have an excuse to cover their screwed up yet successful deer slaughter plan. There are alot of idiotic fools on here who believe as many believe that iraq was the reason for 911 and we must destroy them. Oh the sheeple that live and breed in this country and state is a shame.

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

So would you suggest that maybe they line up and count off county by county so we know exactly what were dealing with on that particular day, then average in car strikes, coyote kills,drownings and lease not forget mountain lion kills and then we would have that exact live deer number on hand for you and [&:]bird. Or just you.;)

I've heard others speak of this 2F .Or is 2G?:eek:

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

Serious,Its a waiste of time and energy to do a harvest when you have no idea how many deer you have. The only thing it is proving is that the herd is being reduced every year and it is not stabalizing or increasing. If you can't see that or anyone else for that matter, I feel sorry for you and the future generation if people are allowed to breed with that way of thinking. Again,what good is a harvest report if the PGC is not doing anything to it's response? Herd decreases yet the PGC still hands out deer tags. Smart bunch of people. NOT

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

I heard some where that the P.G.C. wanted the herd reduced.[:-]Some thing about forest regeneration I think.

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

So why is it necessary then to send in harvest report cards if the PGC is not paying attention to them? No idea of how many deer but keep reducing the deer herd for forest regeneration? HRMMM,Again what are the report cards job. What reason do we have them if they are not being used to monitor deer herds?Just keep killing the deer till like only 100 report cards are sent in thenstop the slaughter? What good are report cards if it is about foerest regeneration as you mentioned? BS.

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

How is that you would have them "count" the deer in the state of PA?

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

The PGC has PS estimated deer densities just like they did in the past, but they won't release them. If they didn't have those estimates the couldn't calculate the percent change in the herd from one year to the next as reported in their AWRs.

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

What good are the report cards then? You say deer reduction is for forest regrowth. Now how do these report cards work if the herds keep getting reduced each season. How do report cards work without knowledge of the total deer herds? Report cards are a waiste of time and just a make you feel good as the PGC makes you think they care about deer hunting and numbers in PA.

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

The herd numbers have not leveled off and continue to plummet each season. This year is going to be a joke for deer harvest numbers.

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

How've you been Pedro? How's your twin Explorer Jack?

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

You Sir, obviously don’t have a clue about even the most basic principles of deer management. You are so far out in left field I don’t even know how far back to the basics one would have to go to get you even in the correct universe.

Start here and once you have read these you might be able to come back here and interact on the subjects with at least a basic knowledge of deer management.

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/deer/pdf/reporting_rate_variability.pdf


http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=525&q=175185


http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/deer/pdf/Management__Plan6-03.pdf


http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=460&q=174345


http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=465&Q=175353&PM=1


http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=460&q=174310


R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

But Scorp is correct when he says the PGC claims they don't know how many deer we have. Therefore, he has every reason to question the importance of reporting the deer that are harvested. The PGC is responsible for creating this mess by denying they are using the same populations estimates they have always used to allocate doe tags

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

No one has ever known how many deer there were in any state at any given time in history and if they did it would be changed within about five minutes anyway.

It isn’t even important to know how many deer you have when the deer and their food supply are telling you if there are the right amount, too many deer or if the food supply and habitat could possibly support more deer. It is nearly as important to know how many there are is it to know when you need to harvest more, fewer or maintain a stable harvest.

The deer give you those answers when you monitor them. It makes much more sense to listen to what the deer and habitat have to say then to listen to what hunters have to say. They listen to the hunters so long we have many areas today with very low deer numbers. Listening to the deer works much better because deer don’t have anything but real facts to present while hunters present lots of opinions with almost no supporting facts.

Wise people will put more faith in listening to the deer and their food supply then the hunters.

R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

But the PGC claims they can calculate the change in population from one year to the next,so they are in fact claiming they have population estimates just like they have in the past,while at the same time they claim they don't know how many deer we have. That is simply impossible.

If the PGC listened to the deer , they would increase the antlerless allocations and reduce the herd even more, since the breeding rates decreased by 5 % and productivity also decreased. The deer have shown that the herd was below the MST carrying capacity when we had 1.6M deer and that is why breeding rates decreased instead of increasing as you predicted. LISTEN To The DEER RSB!!

RE: Changes you would like for Hunting Season
 

Yes there are estimated deer numbers, there always have been. But, that estimate isn’t the driving force in the management direction any longer and for good reason.



That is a statewide number but since we don’t manage on a statewide level that number rightfully has no deer management influence in any particular management unit. Each unit is managed based on the facts the deer within that unit provide.



No, that is just your opinion based on your lack of knowledge about the deer/habitat relationship and how each influence the other. You simply don’t understand how nature works and it appears you most likely never will.



Oh, I do!

I’ve been listening to them for decades. That is why I have worked so hard for so long to educate people toward protecting the habitat so it can support more deer in the future, I have seen firsthand, with destroyed habitat and crashed deer populations, just how foolish it is to manage as you advocate.

R.S. Bodenhorn