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-   Northeast (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/northeast-26/)
-   -   Does This Sound Familiar (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/northeast/287274-does-sound-familiar.html)

bluebird2 02-22-2009 01:46 PM
Does This Sound Familiar
 
Can anyone guess when the PGC made this statement.
An antlerless season was held in 19XX and again 19XX. License allocations were predicated on trends in the antlered deer season,crop damage ,winter mortality,highway mortality , range conditions and the reproductive capacity of the herd.

It is gratifying to enlighten sportsman,farmers ,foresters and game managers to see that the commissions policy is bringing back some of the heavily overbrowsed areas..that range conditions are improving and crop damage is decreasing...all indications that the basic premise of the deer program( that is maintaining maximum breeding stock consistent with existing food supply) is paying dividends

ManySpurs 02-23-2009 02:46 AM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
I'm stumped. On one hand, I want to say it was during the bonus tag years. It had to be before the PGC stopped counting roadkills and turned that chore over to PennDot. But yet, when they say "An antlerless season was held in 19XX and again 19XX" it almost sounds like it was during a period of time when there was no doe season.

I'll be damned if I'm digging out the books. Clue me in please.

bluebird2 02-23-2009 03:50 AM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 


The last time the PGC make a major change in how our deer are managed was in 1980 when they established the OWDD goals that were used until 2003. The quote I posted was prior to 1980.

cardeeer 02-23-2009 07:30 AM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
All I remember that in the 60s and 70s I was seeing around 100 deer a day when hunting.

BTBowhunter 02-23-2009 07:45 AM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
I believe you could insert 1928 and 1938 into the statement where the yrears are x'd out

blkpowder 02-23-2009 07:55 AM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
[quote]ORIGINAL: bluebird2

Can anyone guess when the PGC made this statement.
An antlerless season was held in 19XX and again 19XX. License allocations were predicated on trends in the antlered deer season,crop damage ,winter mortality,highway mortality , range conditions and the reproductive capacity of the herd.

It is gratifying to enlighten sportsman,farmers ,foresters and game managers to see that the commissions policy is bringing back some of the heavily overbrowsed areas..that range conditions are improving and crop damage is decreasing...all indications that the basic premise of the deer program( that is maintaining maximum breeding stock consistent with existing food supply) is paying dividends
I believe we can use 1905 an 1913 also!

bluebird2 02-23-2009 08:55 AM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 

ORIGINAL: BTBowhunter

I believe you could insert 1928 and 1938 into the statement where the yrears are x'd out
Not even close!!!

BTBowhunter 02-23-2009 09:30 AM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
It was just a guess. Not particularly important considering that you've said that the quote is at least 30 years old.

bluebird2 02-23-2009 12:07 PM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
Actually , it is very important since it demonstrates how the PGC went from an agency concerned about the interest of hunters to an agency that has changed it's priorities to satisfy DCNR and the timber industry.

bowtruck 02-23-2009 12:12 PM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
so when was it and the point is?

bluebird2 02-23-2009 12:16 PM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
You didn't venture a guess so you don't get an answer just yet. I just posted the point , but you may have been making your post at the same time.

bowtruck 02-23-2009 12:20 PM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
ok i see point my guess was 28 and 30 but you said btb wasnt close so iguess i play your game
and wait a week or sothen come back and see if you gave out the answer

BTBowhunter 02-23-2009 12:24 PM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
Oh yeah, decisions and policies utilizedbefore 1980 are something that would really fit now.

Lets see before 1980....

Jimmy Carter was elected[:'(]

We waited in lines 20 deep for 3 bucks worth of gas[:'(]

We helped put Sadam Hussein and Bin Laden in power[:'(]

We ran out of Vietnam after grinding up 50,000 brave young men for nothing[:'(]

Oh and wehad a deer management style that put a maximum sustained body count as theonly realgoal[:'(]

bluebird2 02-23-2009 12:27 PM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
Did you even bother to read the quote? Did you note they were using the same basic criteria that the PGC is using today?

BTBowhunter 02-23-2009 12:47 PM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
ORIGINAL: bluebird2

Did you even bother to read the quote? Did you note they were using the same basic criteria that the PGC is using today?
I read all the quotes including this one

Actually , it is very important since it demonstrates how the PGC went from an agency concerned about the interest of hunters to an agency that has changed it's priorities to satisfy DCNR and the timber industry.
Which is what the response was directed toward. We all know that there has been a shift from one of Maximum sustained yeild to an RDD optimal sustained yeild. The terminology to justify both is similar but they are very different management styles

bluebird2 02-23-2009 12:56 PM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
We all know that there has been a shift from one of Maximum sustained yeild to an RDD optimal sustained yeild. The terminology to justify both is similar but they are very different management styles
I doubt that even 1% of the hunters know that change has occurred and I doubt that 10% of those on this MB know what the RRD optimal sustained yield is based on. But, the fact remains that the change was based on the political pressure exerted by DCNR and the timber industry and it is totally subjective and not in the best interest of hunters or the deer herd.

BTBowhunter 02-23-2009 01:11 PM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
I'm not surprised that you minimize the ability of PA's hunters and the members of this board to understand deer management given that you thinkDr James Kroll doen't even understand it.

bluebird2 02-23-2009 01:28 PM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 

ORIGINAL: BTBowhunter

I'm not surprised that you minimize the ability of PA's hunters and the members of this board to understand deer management given that you thinkDr James Kroll doen't even understand it.
of Maximum sustained yeild to an RDD optimal sustained yeild.

Here is an example of why I said that. RDD is not the optimal sustainable yield as you claimed. RDD standards for the relative deer density, not the optimal sustainable yield.

bawanajim 02-23-2009 01:32 PM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
I think it has something to do with a 5 % drop in breathing rates,and that is directly tied to the failed attempts in the past to educate PA hunters about how little we really know about breathing and its affects on our habitat,stable and constant breathing is a goal we should all strive for,not just for ourselves but for future breathers as well.[&:]

BTBowhunter 02-23-2009 06:06 PM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
BB doesnt understand that the breathing rate samples shifted in emphasisto the Marcellus shale shelffrom the non marcellus areas so the drop in breathing rates is really not a drop because the gasses away from the Marcellus are easier to breathe so the breathing rates most likely actually increased:D

bluebird2 02-24-2009 02:51 AM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
And you don't even understand what RDD stands for, so you made something up and now you want to change the subject to belittling me. Nice try. If you know so much about RDD why don't you list the RDDs for 2B , 2g and 2F and then explain how the PGC is managing those herds based on the RDD goals.

bawanajim 02-24-2009 03:19 AM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
ORIGINAL: bluebird2

And you don't even understand what RDD stands for, so you made something up and now you want to change the subject to belittling me. Nice try. If you know so much about RDD why don't you list the RDDs for 2B , 2g and 2F and then explain how the PGC is managing those herds based on the RDD goals.
So the P.G.C is doing a fine job managing deer according to you on 19 of 22 W.M.U.'s state wide All but 2B ,2G & 2F.
I think thats a success rate we all can be happy with.

bluebird2 02-24-2009 04:00 AM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
You're just being silly and trying to get some attention and start a fight . I never said the PGC was doing a fine job of managing the herd in those WMUs . I ask BTB to provide the RDD goals , but he doesn't even know what RDD means.

the outsider 02-24-2009 04:03 AM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
ORIGINAL: bawanajim

I think it has something to do with a 5 % drop in breathing rates,and that is directly tied to the failed attempts in the past to educate PA hunters about how little we really know about breathing and its affects on our habitat,stable and constant breathing is a goal we should all strive for,not just for ourselves but for future breathers as well.[&:]
What grade are you presently in BJ? 8th, maybe 9th? Don't you have homework to do?

Screamin Steel 02-24-2009 04:05 AM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
ORIGINAL: bluebird2

Can anyone guess when the PGC made this statement.
An antlerless season was held in 19XX and again 19XX. License allocations were predicated on trends in the antlered deer season,crop damage ,winter mortality,highway mortality , range conditions and the reproductive capacity of the herd.

It is gratifying to enlighten sportsman,farmers ,foresters and game managers to see that the commissions policy is bringing back some of the heavily overbrowsed areas..that range conditions are improving and crop damage is decreasing...all indications that the basic premise of the deer program( that is maintaining maximum breeding stock consistent with existing food supply) is paying dividends
I highlighted the part that I found particularly interesting. The PGC believed that their program at the time with a short doe season with fairly low allocations was producing significant regeneration even in overbrowsed habitat,visible decreases inreported crop damage,yet today PGC and their supporters are claiming poor regeneration even with owdd below 10dpsm in many areas. So what has changed? Deer still browse the same species as before. How can much lower DD today produce less regeneration than decades ago? How about pollution and timber pratices? Btw, I'll guess circa 1975.

bawanajim 02-24-2009 04:07 AM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
ORIGINAL: bluebird2

You're just being silly and trying to get some attention and start a fight . I never said the PGC was doing a fine job of managing the herd in those WMUs . I ask BTB to provide the RDD goals , but he doesn't even know what RDD means.
I'm thinking it has something to do with redundancy.;)

So what other W.M.U. has the P.G.C. destroyed the future of deer hunting in besides your particular three?:eek:

bluebird2 02-24-2009 05:03 AM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
So what other W.M.U. has the P.G.C. destroyed the future of deer hunting in besides your particular three?
Do you get some sick satisfaction from intentionally misrepresenting what other people post?

bawanajim 02-24-2009 05:22 AM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
ORIGINAL: bluebird2

So what other W.M.U. has the P.G.C. destroyed the future of deer hunting in besides your particular three?
Do you get some sick satisfaction from intentionally misrepresenting what other people post?
You do it in practically every post that you make, I was just using your tactics to defeat your argumentative style of posting that lacks any credible evidence beyond your pointless repetitive aversion to the facts.

BTBowhunter 02-24-2009 05:42 AM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
ORIGINAL: bluebird2

And you don't even understand what RDD stands for, so you made something up and now you want to change the subject to belittling me. Nice try. If you know so much about RDD why don't you list the RDDs for 2B , 2g and 2F and then explain how the PGC is managing those herds based on the RDD goals.
Go find em yourself. Understanding relative deer density and using it to to calculate optimal sustained yeild doesn't require memorizing the actual numbers for each WMU. Thats what we pay the wildlife biologists to do.
Be careful when you accuse people of making things up. Just like your plagarism accusation on Jim, you'll wind up with egg all over your face again.

bluebird2 02-24-2009 05:47 AM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
Go find em yourself. Understanding relative deer density and using it to to calculate optimal sustained yeild doesn't require memorizing the actual numbers for each WMU. Thats what we pay the wildlife biologists to do.
Thank you for once again proving you do not understand the current deer management plan. Remember the PGC claims they don't have RDD goals for each WMU and you just admitted that you did not know that. You also admitted that you didn't know the PGC was not managing the herd at the optimal sustainable yield. What would you like to admit you don't know now?

bawanajim 02-24-2009 05:56 AM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
ORIGINAL: bluebird2

Go find em yourself. Understanding relative deer density and using it to to calculate optimal sustained yeild doesn't require memorizing the actual numbers for each WMU. Thats what we pay the wildlife biologists to do.
Thank you for once again proving you do not understand the current deer management plan. Remember the PGC claims they don't have RDD goals for each WMU and you just admitted that you did not know that. You also admitted that you didn't know the PGC was not managing the herd at the optimal sustainable yield. What would you like to admit you don't know now?
Do you get some sick satisfaction from intentionally misrepresenting what other people posts.

BTBowhunter 02-24-2009 06:08 AM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
ORIGINAL: bluebird2

Go find em yourself. Understanding relative deer density and using it to to calculate optimal sustained yeild doesn't require memorizing the actual numbers for each WMU. Thats what we pay the wildlife biologists to do.
Thank you for once again proving you do not understand the current deer management plan. Remember the PGC claims they don't have RDD goals for each WMU and you just admitted that you did not know that. You also admitted that you didn't know the PGC was not managing the herd at the optimal sustainable yield. What would you like to admit you don't know now?
Wrong again sport!

That is indeed the management style the PGC is currently using. Just because they don't use that name for it doesnt mean that's not the general mangement principle they're following. If you understood what thse terms meant you wouldnt be embarrasing yourself.


[blockquote]quote:

ORIGINAL: bluebird2


[blockquote]quote:

Go find em yourself. Understanding relative deer density and using it to to calculate optimal sustained yeild doesn't require memorizing the actual numbers for each WMU. Thats what we pay the wildlife biologists to do. [/blockquote]

Thank you for once again proving you do not understand the current deer management plan. Remember the PGC claims they don't have RDD goals for each WMU and you just admitted that you did not know that. You also admitted that you didn't know the PGC was not managing the herd at the optimal sustainable yield. What would you like to admit you don't know now?
[/blockquote]


Do you get some sick satisfaction from intentionally misrepresenting what other people posts.
LOL !!!
Jim, you should at least include a little salt and pepper when you stuff his own words back down his throat

bluebird2 02-24-2009 06:17 AM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
That is indeed the management style the PGC is currently using. Just because they don't use that name for it doesnt mean that's not the general management principle they're following. If you understood what thse terms meant you wouldnt be embarrasing yourself.
The quote I posted showed that prior to 1980 they were managing the herd based on the same general management principles they are using today. But, during the period of the quote the PGC was managing the herd at a RDD of 30 DPSM and now the same agency is managing 2 G at a RDD of less than 10 DPSM.

BTW, I just proved it is you that don't understand the terms. I have the report in front of me that lists the RDD definitions. Do you know how many RDD they list in that report and do you know what each RDD signifies?

bawanajim 02-24-2009 06:40 AM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
I guess that meanshe's not gonna tell us the proper setting for our secret decoder rings.

BTBowhunter 02-24-2009 06:55 AM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
ORIGINAL: bawanajim

I guess that meanshe's not gonna tell us the proper setting for our secret decoder rings.
It's a favorite tactic of the spinner. He'll ask for an apple and if you give it to him he'll use his famous "wrong again" and explain all about oranges

Cornelius08 02-24-2009 07:05 AM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
"you wouldnt be embarrasing yourself. "

LMAO!! LOLOLOL

Btb, tell me that YOU didnt just say that! (LOL)(LOL)(LOL)

bluebird2 02-24-2009 12:03 PM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
Which is what the response was directed toward. We all know that there has been a shift from one of Maximum sustained yeild to an RDD optimal sustained yeild. The terminology to justify both is similar but they are very different management styles
That is what you claimed in your original post and when I ask you to back it up with facts you completely avoided the issue. If the PGC is managing the herd at the optimal sustainable yield ,why is 2F managed at 22 FPSM and 2G is managed at 12 PS DPSM,when the criteria for both WMU's is the same?

bowtruck 02-24-2009 01:09 PM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
:eek::eek: bb every thing is the same same square mile same amount of forrest
same amount of devlopment same usable land same amount of the same trees same in every aspect
i think not that seems foolish

bluebird2 02-24-2009 01:27 PM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
WMU 2F is 7% farmland and 2G is 7.6%., 2F is 90.7% forested and 2G is 90%,2f is .8% developed and 2G is .6% developed . Herd health and forest health is rated the same in both WMUs, so I guess you better rethink your last post.

bowtruck 02-24-2009 01:33 PM
RE: Does This Sound Familiar
 
and the sq miles of both units are the same and with your numbers they dont seem to be exactly the
same what about terrain when you answer post fully then maybe i will rethink last post


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