Cornelius08

"Right out of Bluebird Larry's playbook of how liars can figure.... You selectively took the little 4 year slice of time that makes your slant look the best. here's a few more years from PA's research...."

I did nothing of the such. I took the years provided in the annual report and they show what they show. Prior to 2002 there was no antler restrictions and the years where the herd has been at its lowest has been the most recent on that chart. The chart clearly shows that the longer we had our program in place, the worse the data got. Thats what myself and others had pointed out and the facts still stand as stated.


"The median embryos per doe for that time period is 1.57 and the median percent of does bred is 89.4 I dont quite know how to help you understand that these are normal fluctuations but it's kind of obvious that you only wish to understand your own ill conceived notions of how you think things ought to be. "

First, Im not the least bit interested in the averages of that time period. I am concerned more, as anyone should be, with the STEADY DECLINE during that time period. The average you cite is absolutely meaningless and shows nothing. The trend I speak of shows just that. The current trend. One which only a complete idiot would want to have continue.

No normal fluctuation. It dropped period. And funny thing is, even if it HADNT dropped( which it did) going from 1.64 embryos per doesway back in 2002(when our herd was supposedly in crisis [8D][8D])and funny thing is, ITnever reached that point since! (LOL), if it HAD stayed the same, then there would be nothing to base the extreme reductions on. Why cut the herd by radical extremes when we would have NO improvments as promised and predicted? That would be plain stupid. Know what that means? FAILURE. Whats worse, the data ALL dropped significantly. What does that mean? MISERABLY FAILED...I do have an idea though... Since you say decrease in doe bred by 5% is natural fluctuation, maybe when our deer density grows by that same 5% we can tell Pgc under no circumstances shall they raise the allocation since its only natural fluctuation? (LOL)

By the way, the steady drop, all the way down to a FIVE PERCENT decline in adult does bred since 2001 is VERY SIGNIFICANT!!!!


"It needs twaeking for sure but guys like you who need to present partial "facts" just defeat your own purpose. "

The facts are what they are and speak for themselves. This plan is supposed to be based on "science" or so we've been preached for some time now. Currently the only "scientific" evidence shows it IS NOT working.You cant do a thing about it. The fact you defend pgc to the end, no matter what the PROOF says shows you have some bizarre agenda known only to yourself.... To each his own.[:'(] Despite what Pgc may think of us, Im a hunter who isnt a complete idiot, and I can add and subtract. I see those pgcreproductive numbers and percentagesand allI see is them subtracted from more and more the longer this plan goeson, when they were supposed to be added to. ENUFF SAID. Noexplanations. These "indicators" have been explained to us thouroughly and often. No ands ifs or buts, they were SUPPOSED TO INCREASE!They did not! And that does not add up to a success for the deer plan by anyones rediculous stretched imagination.

Unlike you, with others, my goal isnt to get in a pizzin' match with you. Im simply stating the facts and I find them quite disgusting, and cant really understand why anyone would be so blindly accepting as you apparently are when all the facts point out what many had said from day one of this plan. It is driven by extremists with agendas, and the extremity of the current reduction is based on nothing.

sproulman

the only bad thing is, i used too have second week almost to myself and still had that buck around.

i feel that half the bucks killed that made it thru first week, got it on saturday of first week.

i like it because it gets hunters back here for another week to hunt and SPENDING their money.

i actually saw more CREWS the first saturday and second monday than i did all week.

i saw like 3 crews first m-f,then 5 crews on saturday and 3 more on monday of second week.

bluebird2

Here is a quote from an article in PAOUTDOoRNEWS.

Do we really want those crap racked buck becoming the dominant breeders?

BTBowhunter

I spent the first Saturday in Illinois so I didn't get to see the pressure that day but in all my travels the second week, I saw plenty of deer but only two hunters out in 2B during the week. The last Friday, I saw zero hunters vehicles parked at typical spots on my way to camp in 2F. On Saturday morning, we overslept and left camp at about first light. We saw a grand total of four vehicles parked along theentire length Muzette road along SGL 24 and three vehicles including our two along the forest road we hunted. We saw far more deer than hunters. The pressure after opening day everywhere I saw was just about nil in spite of seeing plenty of deer and deer sign.

It just seems like nobody hunts much after opening day anymore.

sproulman

not in clinton county,hunters numbers were way up ,both first week and second week.

yet, i only saw 3 buck and 2 doe killed for about 250 hunters in say about 10 mile area.

first week,mon,tues,wed most of hunters sat,very few crews, i saw 3 that drove my area in first week,but a ton of treesitters.

i saw 1 buck and killed by about 60 hunters.

then came saturday, oh my, hunters,same treesitters came back and add in about 5 crews in my area,all different crews too,not same ones from first week.

then monday, oh my, hunters all over,only 1 buck killed and no doe.

avg crew was 9 to 11 hunters,1 crew was 20 hunters, no deeron that monday.

then i came out tues/wed/thurs.

crews all over place but again,ALL DIFFERENT HUNTERS.

they had no deer for 2 days of hunting.

i dont think i heard of more than around 10 bucks killed local.

there was more big bucks killed by kids than all buck by adults in this part of county.

i used to see same local crews only first week, this year, i saw them for 2 weeks,hunting very hard and getting hardly anything.

i crew got 3 bucks and 2 doe out of 20 hunters on and off number for 2 weeks.

last year they got 8 buck, 7 of which were spikes,they had 11 kids in crew.

this year 3 buck and 2 doe.

these hunters i grew up with, they hunt same areas for at least,30 years on adults that are in crew.

so,thats what i saw.

i tried to talk some of crews out of killing those 3 doe i had in my area, 1 said ,sproul, i shot one in early muzzleloader on pipeline, now that leaves me 2 and that is what i saw on tracks first week, 2.

i just dont understand hunters i see today, they dont care if a doe is left in area for next year.

they just move to another area and clean them out.

BTBowhunter

It amazes me that the areas with the least deer still seem to attract the biggest numbers of hunters. 2G always sells out of doe tags first. 2F is usually right behind 2G. My best guess is that many hunters simply won't let go of old habits and those WMU's are traditionally still the only "deer country" to many. The pressure is way off in 2F and what pressure there is doesn't last long but the doe tags still sell off like hotcakes every year.

In the meantime, tagsremain available for the bonus roundsin areas that have plenty of access and plenty of deer.

Stories from guys like Doug andmy own group's experiencesshow that even within these more heavily hunted WMU's, there are still places to find abundant deer numbers.

Once again, the deer are still there for those who can adapt

bluebird2

It really is truly amazing how little guys like BTB know about deer management. If the hunters in 2F and 2G adapted as BTB suggests, they wouldn't buy doe tags in those WMUs and instead would hunting other WMUs leaving very few hunters to control the herd in 2F and 2G. Another thing BTB doesn't realize is that hunters have adapted to the point where there are very few WMUs where the PGC claims they want to reduce the herd and in those WMUs the harvest is significantly affected by limited access. The, fact is , in most WMUs we are harvesting all the deer that can be harvested on a sustainable basis and in several WMUs harvests are still exceeding recruitment ,due in part to reduced breeding rates and productivity.

sproulman

reasons hunters come is because WMU2G has most publicland and MOST camps in state.most said this is only time they can get a crew together and be able to stay at camp.

i asked most this, all said,YES, I GOT 28 DOE IN MY YARD AT HOME BUT I CANT RIFLE HUNT THERE.

you cant drive deer also.we like to hunt in crews.

these are meat hunters.they dont know how to sit in tree all day and dont want too,they get their MEAT by driving deer, thats ALL THEY KNOW.

all said they dont have excess to privateland.


this is reason they come and keep POUNDING at deer that are left here.


CAMPS/PRIVATELAND/only way they know to hunt,is what brings them here.

BTBowhunter

That cant be all there is to it. I'm in 2F with the whole ANF around me as well as huge timber company holdings that might as well be public along with some state forest and a few really large game lands. We don't have a fraction of the hunters you describe and2F iscloser to Pgh and Cleveland which is where the majority of camp owners up there come from. The parts of 2G I've been through don't seem to be more populated with camps than 2F so there's gotta be another reason.

sproulman

cant think of any other reason that they have told me over years.

IT IS NOT DO TO LOTS OF DEER HERE, THATS FOR SURE.

i think clinton has 10,000 camps alone, not sure on that .

i could find that out and you could compare


tradition too


i too was shocked on number of hunters i saw the 2 weeks of season.

about 25% were same hunters i saw each year, 75% were all different hunters from as far as harrisburg and almost ALL other than locals stayed at a CAMP this year.

only negative for ME is now that buck that did get away the second week is now being shot on saturday/monday of second week.

this is what i saw this year, about half of say 10 bucks killed locally were shot second week do to large crewws pushing the buck to LOCALS in treestands.

many crews werte mad that us treesitters were still in woods and they drove a nice buck to LOCALS.

those treesitters sat and saw very few if any deer even when large crews came in on sat/mon and drove pee out of the woods.

5 bucks forfor about 4 townships is not a lot of deer to be lost to someone in your drives.

we used to get 3 buck drive and still lose a buck or 2 to treesitters in our drives.

today, its like ,1 buck lost per 5 crews in area but those crews did not see deer.

so, i can see why they aremad and empty their gun at doe so a stumpsitters dont get it first.

this is why its going to be hard to have any deer to hunt when no one cares if a doe is left.