pa antler restrictions yes or no?
11-27-2008, 02:17 PM
#42
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
But so is the evolution, or deterioration if you will, of habitat in some areas with 2G being the most significant example.
ARs contributed to the drop in buck harvests because more buck are lost to non-hunting mortality which may be as high as 18%. Also ,at least 20% of the 1.5 buck aren't AR legal as 2.5 buck ,which further reduces the harvest. Furthermore, ARs reduce the percentage and number of does in the OW herd so there are fewer doe producing fawns which results in lower buck and doe harvests.
11-27-2008, 02:26 PM
#43
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
.If 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 year old bucks given a free pass to live on,should they not then be available to harvest as 3 1/2 , 4 1/2, and 5 1/2 year old bucks ?
11-27-2008, 02:51 PM
#44
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
ORIGINAL: bluebird2
Remember that ARs shift a lot of the hunting pressure to the 2.5+ buck and as a result ,according to the PGC only 20% of our 2.5+ buck survive hunting season. Also ,a significant percentage of the 2.5+ buck that survive are inferior buck that weren't AR legal and may be harvested as scrub racked 3.5 buck and the hunter never realizes he shot a 3.5 buck.
.If 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 year old bucks given a free pass to live on,should they not then be available to harvest as 3 1/2 , 4 1/2, and 5 1/2 year old bucks ?
You actually pointed out your own contradiction when you admitted that we now harvest 80% of our 2.5 buck. The very same percentage of 1.5 buck we used to kill.
11-27-2008, 02:56 PM
#45
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
ORIGINAL: bluebird2
That is not one of the reasons buck harvests have dropped. The deer in 2G and across the state were healthy before ARs and HR and due to the effects of HR there is a lot more food/deer than there was 10 years ago.
ARs contributed to the drop in buck harvests because more buck are lost to non-hunting mortality which may be as high as 18%. Also ,at least 20% of the 1.5 buck aren't AR legal as 2.5 buck ,which further reduces the harvest. Furthermore, ARs reduce the percentage and number of does in the OW herd so there are fewer doe producing fawns which results in lower buck and doe harvests.
But so is the evolution, or deterioration if you will, of habitat in some areas with 2G being the most significant example.
ARs contributed to the drop in buck harvests because more buck are lost to non-hunting mortality which may be as high as 18%. Also ,at least 20% of the 1.5 buck aren't AR legal as 2.5 buck ,which further reduces the harvest. Furthermore, ARs reduce the percentage and number of does in the OW herd so there are fewer doe producing fawns which results in lower buck and doe harvests.
11-27-2008, 03:08 PM
#46
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
I didn't deny that whitetail magement takes place in an ever changing habitat
What I said was that the quality of the habitat and the amount of available food/deer were improving when ARs were implemented ,while you claimed it was deteriorating.
Denying that variables besides the doe harvest have an effect just shows your lack of understanding.
I didn't deny there were other variables besides the doe harvests and in fact I pointed out the effects ARs have on reducing the buck harvest.
11-27-2008, 06:22 PM
#47
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
ORIGINAL: rdb1125
I love it, the quality of the bucks are so much better. Now all we need to do is stop slaughtering the doe during buck season.
I love it, the quality of the bucks are so much better. Now all we need to do is stop slaughtering the doe during buck season.
nothing else to say, you hit it on head.
11-27-2008, 07:44 PM
#48
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
ORIGINAL: sproulman
nothing else to say, you hit it on head.
ORIGINAL: rdb1125
I love it, the quality of the bucks are so much better. Now all we need to do is stop slaughtering the doe during buck season.
I love it, the quality of the bucks are so much better. Now all we need to do is stop slaughtering the doe during buck season.
nothing else to say, you hit it on head.
11-27-2008, 08:29 PM
#49
Fork Horn
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 147
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
ORIGINAL: Coalcracker
And now for the rest of the story, it's the one the PGC and RSB doesn't want you to know, so they use five year averages and harvests per square mile.
I do know that since AR started the percent of 2 1/2 year old bucks has decreased in numbers and also as a percent of the total harvest, I'm sure RSB would be glad give those number, if not I'm sure Bluebird could give them to you.
During the years 1998 and 2002, we harvested 947,701 antlered deer for a five year average of 189,540. During the years 2003 and 2007, we harvested 631,670 antlered deer for a five year average of 126,334. I'm sure your impressed with our manage plan that we harvested over 60,000 less antlered deer per year on average, but it does get better or worse, depending on whether youra hunter or the PGC. During the five year period of 2003 and 2007, all five yearly harvests set a record, we had never shot so fewantlered deer, since the PGC started estimating our harvest in 1986.
Let me also point out that our 2007 antlered harvest was 109,200, with 2000 and 2001 having a harvest of over 200,000 in both years.
As all of my figures come from the PGC web site, you will have to form your own opinion of our current managementplan. As I have my own private
landto hunt these changes haven't effect my hunting, but think how the guy feels that has to hunt our state lands and the out of state hunter that pays five times more for a license.
ORIGINAL: RSB
Having larger antlers on 2 ½ year old bucks most certainly is not the only way you would have more and bigger buck then before antler restrictions. For you to suggest something so absurd clearly proves just how completely clueless you are.
Before antler restrictions we killed about 80% of our 1 ½ year old bucks every year. When we went to antler restrictions we started protecting about 50% of those 1 ½ year old bucks and allowing them to live a year longer. Since that then makes those 2 ½ year old instead of 1 ½ year old when they are available for harvest certainly means both more and bigger bucks even though those 2 ½ year old bucks are no larger then previous 2 ½ year old bucks.
You do know that 2 ½ year old bucks typically have larger antlers then 1 ½ year old bucks don’t you?
Here are the history of 2 ½ year old bucks harvested across the state for the past twenty five years so al can see how close that number has come to doubling since Doctor Alt first brought the topic to the forefront in 1999. Starting in 1999 we started to see some voluntary movement toward antler restrictions among the hunting fraternity so the period between 1998 and 2002 showed some improvement from the previous fifteen years.
Years…………..2 ½ and older bucks harvested per square mile
83-87.………………………….0.65
88-92.………………………….0.68
93-97.………………………….0.68
98-02.………………………….1.07
03-07.………………………….1.29
As you can see the number of 2 ½ and older bucks has almost doubled as compared to the old traditional data for 2 ½ and older bucks.
I will agree that the total buck numbers probably haven’t doubled yet, but that is most likely only due to the lower fawn recruitment rates we had following those harsh winter years a few years ago. Hunters can’t harvest deer, as adult bucks, when they died within days of being born. As fawn recruitment improves so will the buck harvest, but not until two years later when the those fawns become adult bucks.
R.S. Bodenhorn
ORIGINAL: bluebird2
Wrong again. We were told we would have more and larger buck than ever before and both claims were a lie.. The only way that could happen is if the 2.5+ buck were larger due to antler restrictions and it didn't happen.
The claim was made that by improving the age structure ,the superior dominant 2.5+ buck would do the vast majority of the breeding,thus improving the gene pool and producing bigger racked buck. As a result many hunters believe the 2.5 buck now have bigger racks and weigh more than before ARs.
If you think that is what was said you really do have some serious comprehension deficiencies.
Wrong again. We were told we would have more and larger buck than ever before and both claims were a lie.. The only way that could happen is if the 2.5+ buck were larger due to antler restrictions and it didn't happen.
No one from the Game Commission ever said they did or would produce beter antlers on 2 1/2 year old bucks even though they did say there woudl be more 2 1/2 year old bucks available to hunters, and there are.
The claim was made that by improving the age structure ,the superior dominant 2.5+ buck would do the vast majority of the breeding,thus improving the gene pool and producing bigger racked buck. As a result many hunters believe the 2.5 buck now have bigger racks and weigh more than before ARs.
Having larger antlers on 2 ½ year old bucks most certainly is not the only way you would have more and bigger buck then before antler restrictions. For you to suggest something so absurd clearly proves just how completely clueless you are.
Before antler restrictions we killed about 80% of our 1 ½ year old bucks every year. When we went to antler restrictions we started protecting about 50% of those 1 ½ year old bucks and allowing them to live a year longer. Since that then makes those 2 ½ year old instead of 1 ½ year old when they are available for harvest certainly means both more and bigger bucks even though those 2 ½ year old bucks are no larger then previous 2 ½ year old bucks.
You do know that 2 ½ year old bucks typically have larger antlers then 1 ½ year old bucks don’t you?
Here are the history of 2 ½ year old bucks harvested across the state for the past twenty five years so al can see how close that number has come to doubling since Doctor Alt first brought the topic to the forefront in 1999. Starting in 1999 we started to see some voluntary movement toward antler restrictions among the hunting fraternity so the period between 1998 and 2002 showed some improvement from the previous fifteen years.
Years…………..2 ½ and older bucks harvested per square mile
83-87.………………………….0.65
88-92.………………………….0.68
93-97.………………………….0.68
98-02.………………………….1.07
03-07.………………………….1.29
As you can see the number of 2 ½ and older bucks has almost doubled as compared to the old traditional data for 2 ½ and older bucks.
I will agree that the total buck numbers probably haven’t doubled yet, but that is most likely only due to the lower fawn recruitment rates we had following those harsh winter years a few years ago. Hunters can’t harvest deer, as adult bucks, when they died within days of being born. As fawn recruitment improves so will the buck harvest, but not until two years later when the those fawns become adult bucks.
R.S. Bodenhorn
I do know that since AR started the percent of 2 1/2 year old bucks has decreased in numbers and also as a percent of the total harvest, I'm sure RSB would be glad give those number, if not I'm sure Bluebird could give them to you.
During the years 1998 and 2002, we harvested 947,701 antlered deer for a five year average of 189,540. During the years 2003 and 2007, we harvested 631,670 antlered deer for a five year average of 126,334. I'm sure your impressed with our manage plan that we harvested over 60,000 less antlered deer per year on average, but it does get better or worse, depending on whether youra hunter or the PGC. During the five year period of 2003 and 2007, all five yearly harvests set a record, we had never shot so fewantlered deer, since the PGC started estimating our harvest in 1986.
Let me also point out that our 2007 antlered harvest was 109,200, with 2000 and 2001 having a harvest of over 200,000 in both years.
As all of my figures come from the PGC web site, you will have to form your own opinion of our current managementplan. As I have my own private
landto hunt these changes haven't effect my hunting, but think how the guy feels that has to hunt our state lands and the out of state hunter that pays five times more for a license.
Come on now you can’t be that dense or is that just you spinning things to convince the people that aren’t smart enough to connect all the dots?
When we implemented antler restrictions in 2002 it was fully intended to reduce the buck harvest. That was the total reason for implementing antler restrictions that protected about 50% of the 1 ½ year old bucks.
Even the Village Idiot should be able to figure out that when you make half of the 1 ½ year old bucks off limits your buck harvest is going to decline.
But, carrying those extra bucks over into the next fall was necessary in order to improve the adult buck/doe ratio and improve the breeding rates and times. It is working as planned too.
The only problem was that we had carried too many deer for too long and start the herd reduction in time to prevent a deer herd crash following the back to back hard winters we had. The years following those harsh winters we had very few surviving fawns. Half of those fawns that didn’t survive more then a few days after birth would have been the bucks that should have been available to hunters the past couple of years. But, hunters will not be able to harvest adult bucks that died as fawns.
R.S. Bodenhorn
11-27-2008, 08:41 PM
#50
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New Stanton PA USA
Posts: 2,213
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
ORIGINAL: bluebird2
We have fewer quality buck than we did in 2002 ,so i have no idea what you two are talking about.
ORIGINAL: sproulman
nothing else to say, you hit it on head.
ORIGINAL: rdb1125
I love it, the quality of the bucks are so much better. Now all we need to do is stop slaughtering the doe during buck season.
I love it, the quality of the bucks are so much better. Now all we need to do is stop slaughtering the doe during buck season.
nothing else to say, you hit it on head.
I`ll start with your highlighted quote above............Are you on crack?
Next I will ask another question......why are you still permitted on this forum?