Article on PA hunting
 

I'm not sure if you have all read this. I posted this in another thread but thought I would post it here so maybe everyone will read it. It's coming from North American Whitetail magazine, in my opinion, one of the most well respected groups out there.

http://www.northamericanwhitetail.com/huntingtactics/NAW_0907_10/index.html

Guess we may be doing something right.

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

thats a very interesting article, thanks for sharing!

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

muzzyman88, I read it and it sounds just like an Alt interview. It does make sense and explains that they are not going to 'monster deer'. w. the program. BUt it is Alt, great bear guy but deer + PAPGC = ?

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

Oh, man....This is really going to "ruffle the feathers" so-to-speak of some people on here.....The USP whining is about to start....Get your popcorn ready.

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

Wow!!! this is going to bring the out of state trophy hunters in droves, I hope they don't find out about all the big bucks in Cameron Co. ;)

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

Thanks for posting the link Muzzyman88

Something tells me this thread will be very active....

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

here is TRUTH on the AR in wmu2g.

is it causing larger racks, YES.

IS IT CAUSING MORE BUCKS,noooooooooooooooooooo.

WHY?

the junior restriction is being abused by the ADULTS.

most OF THE abuse IS DONE WITH gangs.

its BROWN ITS DOWN WITH KIDS TAG OR KID ALONG.

folks, most are not even looking to see if its doe or buck, let alone does it have 3 points to side.as long as all have doe tag and kids along or tag,its just shoot.


WE AS HUNTERS HAVE GOT TO GET THIS RULE CHANGED.
it must be 3 points for all of us.

let kids ONLY shoot a doe in WMU2G,no adult can kill doe but kids must go by the AR rule.

this could possibly stop the BROWN ITS DOWN WITH KID ALONG OR KIDTAG HUNTERS.;)

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

"Something tells me this thread will be very active...."

It doesnt take a geniustofigure outpeople are gonna want to point out inaccuracy and highly biased information.

Only problem I see, most of the statements are made by Pgc...Even Rsb was quoted. Gee. Gotta be unbiased credible article! (LOL)

Not saying anything bad about the magazine, they have very little way of knowing exactly what our situation is. They basically print what they are told, and every writer simply is not gonna study the topic of our deer management IN DEPTH, when they can get "good enough" fodder in a couple of short phone interviews or a 10 minute face to face chat.

Funny about mentioning the 170" buck. Seeing as it was from Allegheny, one of the worst counties accesswise in the state, and an area that HAS NOT BEEN reduced because of it.

Compare to most of the state where such bucks are about as rare as hens teeth, the ow herd has been reduced by 20, 30 40, and in some cases over 50%.

The reason Allegheny is a good county and is number one in big bucks killed, is because the plan CANNOT work there. Its an SRA, have nearly unlimited tags, yet access wont allow the herd devastation that occurred most other places.

Didnt hear much mention that we had a 40-50 yr low buck harvest. Hunters numbers are declining over twice the national average, that we dont and cant have more big buck as predicted due to many areas having such extreme reduction, Didnt mention the reproduction prediction have proven false according to the annual report data. and on an on...

One flowery, PGC statement riddled article designed to simply paint a happy face to the many many hunters who distrust them aint gonna change a thing.

They are being sued, petitioned, have government intervening on part of hunters, are gonna be audited etc... All for very good reasons. Ecofreaks have set our deer management goals in Pa based on their desire for things like more trillium, hobblebush, and a more "pre-settlement" environment, and they are imbedded like ticks.

The southwest region used to be the best area of the state for big bucks. Then areas like 2A got hit with over 50% ow reduction. Funny thing is, pgc hadnt had a buck scoring session in six years and was highly anticipated...

SOme of the biggest bucks in the region measuring session this year...after not having a session in 6 years!? A measly mid 130's buck was top typical archery. Rifle = 150's.

P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C!

But Pgc will shine the spotlight brighter than ever on the oddball two or three really big bucks from far corners of the state, like were always the case, just to try and salvage a miserably failed program.

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

Baby boomers over sixty hanging up their guns and bows...
Worst line in the whole thing...I hate seeing my grandpa and his brothers declining health. And it justs seems worse every year...They all get out still. And my dad me and some cousins help them all we can, but its sad..such is life I guess...
As for the article, I have mixed feelings. I bow hunt ohio, and in my opinion we have a very healthy herd here. Gun season in PA, I see a big difference. There are way less deer in 2E then when I started hunting in 2000. I have seen a few big bucks, but it is not common to go three or four days before even seening a buck. I remember seeing bucks and does on every drive we did. And we were picky because there were so many deer. Now, if we see ten doe in a day, we are doing good. And the first rack that looks legal is shot, because there are so few deer. Just my opinon from what I have seen.
-Jake

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

Cornelius....You can go on and on all you want about what you seem to refer to as exaggerations made by the PGC as to the amount of bigger bucks being taken since AR was put into effect. I live in 2D and in the past several years have seen larger bucks being harvested than any time I can remember in the past, and I've been around for awhile. A friend does custom deer butchering just down the road from me, and he concurs also. One of my long-time friends who lives just over the hill from me has killed the biggest bucks he has ever taken in archery season sine AR went into effect. Two years ago he killed a 12 pt. with a 21" spread.
The local newspaper prints pictures of succesful hunters who are willing to take the time to go to the paper and have their pictures taken with their deer. Perhaps you would be interested in looking at all the nice racks that are being taken around here. It doesn't take much to cough up the e-mail address of the Indiana Gazette and watch as they come in. And that's only the hunters who bother to take the time to do it.
You paint everything with the same brush. I know what I see.............

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

"Baby boomers over sixty hanging up their guns and bows...
Worst line in the whole thing..."

Boca, I agree. That effect is happening across the nation. Fact is though, something else is making OUR ranks drop by OVER DOUBLE the national average. I think its quite obvious what that thing is.;)

Pawildman says: "Cornelius....You can go on and on all you want about what you seem to refer to as exaggerations made by the PGC as to the amount of bigger bucks being taken since AR was put into effect."

GROSS exaggerations.

"I live in 2D and in the past several years have seen larger bucks being harvested than any time I can remember in the past, and I've been around for awhile."

Not saying its not happening anywhere. Just most places its not. The numbers prove it. IFyou hunt highly off limits property orwhere pgcs agenda has not yet been fulfilled, in part of a wmu that wasspared excessive reduction, and there is an extra 16" buck or two within those square miles, more power to ya. But that is far from the norm.

We arent killing more when we have 40+ year low buck harvests.
More dont exist when many areas have had 50+% ow reduction.
The measuring sessions were a flop.

We cant "assume" we have more bigger bucks based on the views of a few, when most arent seeing it, and the numbers tell a different story.

"A friend does custom deer butchering just down the road from me, and he concurs also."

A local archery shop in our area has an annual big buck contest. Currently there is ONE entry and its far from a "hawg". Usually by this time there are a few to several.

"One of my long-time friends who lives just over the hill from me has killed the biggest bucks he has ever taken in archery season sine AR went into effect."

Ive killed my biggest by far, and know most other that have beforethis program came into being.

"Two years ago he killed a 12 pt. with a 21" spread.
The local newspaper prints pictures of succesful hunters who are willing to take the time to go to the paper and have their pictures taken with their deer. Perhaps you would be interested in looking at all the nice racks that are being taken around here. It doesn't take much to cough up the e-mail address of the Indiana Gazette and watch as they come in. And that's only the hunters who bother to take the time to do it. "

Thats great. But I seem to recall seeing big bucks in the paper EVERY year.

"You paint everything with the same brush. I know what I see............. "

No. Not everything with the same brush. I am speaking of my area, and the state in general as a whole. My assessment in those regards are accurate. When pgc speaks of more and bigger bucks they didnt mean in just a few select areas widely spread and far fewer everywhere else....Well thats what we have!

Also, my main problem as most I believe is with very excessive doe allocations far more than needed and continues to be. With that problem addressed, you'd see far more big buck existing than there ever could be currently.

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

Simply not true. According to the NSSF who has been monitoring hunting license sales for years, we are solidly on the middle of the national average. The States that have experienced better results are those with relaxed youth regulations. We didtake a step in the right direction with the mentored hunts but that needs to be expanded considerably.

Your opinion. We all know what they say about opinions.....


Now there we have some gross exaggerations!

Funny howmost articles outside of the USP publications tell a bit different story. Most articles I see are very much like the one Muzzyman linked us to here.

One contest one example. Funny though, most archery shops around here that run contests will tell you that it's always slow till around the end of October for the big bucks

Again, one mans opinion. That wouldn't be the consensus around here


That is true, but the overwhelming reports from taxidermists tell a story of more nice bucks than ever before

The doe allocations were dropped considerably after only two years in many cases yet the herd has not rebounded. The problem lies with fawn recruitment and the root cause is not the much reduced doe tag allocations.

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

In 2001 when we had 1.5 M PS deer they allocated 780K antlerless tags. After the herd had been reduced by 30-40% they issued 869,000 tags ,plus 20-30K DMAP tags in 2007. The only reason we have much lower fawn recruitment is because we have harvested too many doe.

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

"Simply not true. According to the NSSF who has been monitoring hunting license sales for years, we are solidly on the middle of the national average.

According to US fish and wildlife the national averagefrom 2001 to 2006 has been a 4% per year decline. According to PGC's own website and license sales record, the decline in that exact same period in Pennsylvaniawas 10%.THATS OVER DOUBLE.


"Now there we have some gross exaggerations! "

Not hardly. I wish it was.

"Funny howmost articles outside of the USP publications tell a bit different story. Most articles I see are very much like the one Muzzyman linked us to here. "

Ive never seen a "usp publication" and havent seen many rave reviews in any other where our herd level currently and doe allocations are concerned.

"One contest one example. Funny though, most archery shops around here that run contests will tell you that it's always slow till around the end of October for the big bucks "

Yes. One example, to counter ONE EXAMPLE that was given. I have plenty of others... Also, no kiddin' about slower in early season. But funny thing is, up to this point, its even far slower than it used to be. Even though the season started later than many years and even though the first week had excellent weather with very nice cool morning temps compared to most years.



"That is true, but the overwhelming reports from taxidermists tell a story of more nice bucks than ever before "

Ha ha ha. Wanna talk about OPINIONS! (LOL) Most Ive spoken with are madder about the results than most hunters are!


"The doe allocations were dropped considerably"

OVerall the total allocation isnt significantly lower. Nowhere near appropriate. How many doe tags do you think are necessary to keep so many fewer deerstable anyways? The cuts were very insignificant across most of the state, and in some areas not cut at all. Others were cut, but only because they have ROCK BOTTOM deer numbers and thats all they need to prevent single and barely double digit densities from expanding!

As only one example. 2A had reduction with 16,500 harvest and 45k tags. The goal ever since was 18k, 55-60,000 tagswith a goal of stabilization for the last 3 years!! Can you say CONTRADICTION! The allocation here is a rediculous 55k, again this year,the herd health fine, the habitat here NEVER rated as poor and human conflict rated as loweven by pgcs standards...Yet we were ripped, and the slaughter continues... Cut that allocation backto lower than reduction days levels and see if that herd doesnt respond accordingly.;)

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

"In 2001 when we had 1.5 M PS deer they allocated 780K antlerless tags. After the herd had been reduced by 30-40% they issued 869,000 tags ,plus 20-30K DMAP tags in 2007. The only reason we have much lower fawn recruitment is because we have harvested too many doe.

Very good point my friend.

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

This is what Alt predicted ARs would produce in PA.
Now here is what Dr. R. said in the article.

IF ARs tripled the number of 8 pt. buck there is no way the average rack would be only 7 pts. When I ask Dr. R. if rack sizes increased or decreased he said he didn't know, because ARs prevent the harvest of bucks with less than 3 pts. on on side. Therefore , he can not say that the average buck in PA now has 7 pts.

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

You can beat the dead horse about Alts misstatements all you want. (yes of course he didn't get it 100% right)

The fact remains that much of PA's deer hunting quality has improved. Is it all that Alt said it would be? No. Is it better everywhere? No. Is it pefect anywhere? No. Better overall? YES! More good than bad? YES!

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

.
So harvesting 47% fewer buck than in 2001 is a good thing in your opinion. So harvesting fewer 2.5+ buck than in 2002 is a good thing in your opinion.

So, can you please tell us how low you want the buck harvest to decrease before the PGC has accomplished their goal.

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

Alt wasnt right on ANYTHING.

MOre areas are worse off than previously.

Only areas not so, are those where hrs effects were minimal like in the sras and a few other isolated areas.

Are very few areas (gasp) better? perhaps. But most arent. Also, the numbers show OVERALL a very miserably failed plan.

107k buck harvests and hunter numbers declining over twice the national average tell us things arent satisfactory.

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

Hunting quality improved,Just another man's opion.And like my dad used to say "opions are ike ***HOLES",everyone has them and most of them stink.
Please do not quote facts that either have no real basis,meritand have been manipulated by the people in charge.If you're happy with the state of affairs here,God Bless You,but if your not please don't sugar coat the situation and tell us all's right with the world.

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

i believe you are right,only because i cant find to many reasons other than that for less fawns or no fawns.

here is what i see in wmu2g.

we had fawns lets say 15 years ago.

i noticed then that we only shot old doe.

now, its fill tags with any doe and fawn.

next, we did not have coyotes,i never saw coyote print until around 1996 area.

we only had 3 days of doe and only county wide licenses.

back then MOST of hunters never shot a fawn.
today, its BROWN ITS DOWN WITH DOE/DMAP TAG.
they even call a fawn a FURBALL AFTER SHOOTING IT.

we have more bears than ever before, penn state says bears are killing fawns too.

where the doe are somewhat protected, we have fawns.

i have 3 fawns for 3 doe in my yard, yet i observed 3 doe where i hunt and NO FAWNS.


difference, no coyotes/bears /bobcats.

some say FOOD,that could be reason also but i really dont have anymore food than apples in summer than in woods.

also this is very important, MY DEER DONT STAY IN MY YARD IN WINTER, THEY GO UP ON HILL ON STATEFORESTLAND TO LIVE OUT WINTER.

yet, the few deer i get in spring, will have 2 or 3 fawns.

but not ones in woods..

i still feel its like DR.ALT said to me with state rep hanna at our table.

he said, SPROUL BY HAVING THE EARLY OCT SEASON FOR DOE WE WILL REDUCE THE FAWN RECURITMENT .
he said also, for this to work the hunters must not shoot a fAWN.

he also said,SPROUL SHOOT OLD DOE.
reason for that is older doe are ones that have fawns.

so, if we are killing the older doe and fawns and anything that moves, i expect the fawn numbers have to decline.

i really believe with numbers of doe left that FOOD is not what is causing less fawns to be born.

we had lots of food last few years and very few fawns, it has to be something else causing it.

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

Boy talk about someone cherry picking data in their efforts to misrepresent the facts and you would most certainly achieve the top honors.

Yes we are harvesting fewer bucks then before antler restrictions. The objective of antler restrictions was to protect about 50% of the 1 ½ year old bucks from being harvested and it worked.

But, your comment about harvesting fewer 2 ½ year old bucks now is purely nonsense and a complete misrepresentation of the truth when one looks at the total picture instead of just one poor harvest year.
Here are the buck harvest facts for the past twenty five years.

Years……………..0.5.………………..1.5. ……………….>2.5.………adult males………...all males

83-87.……………0.76.………………2.45.…⠀¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦0.64.…………3.09.………….â €¦..3.85
88-92.……………1.15.………………2.93.…⠀¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦0.67.…………3.60.………….â €¦..4.75
93-97.……………1.22.………………3.02.…⠀¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦0.67.…………3.69.………….â €¦..4.91
98-02.……………1.30.………………3.27.…⠀¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦0.92.…………4.19.…………†¦â€¦5.49
03-07.……………1.27.………………1.51.…⠀¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦1.28.…………2.79.…………†¦â€¦4.06

The fact is that since antler restrictions we are protecting more of our younger bucks and harvesting more older bucks then ever in the history of deer hunting in this state. That is a positive for the future of deer management and deer hunting for those that really care about the future instead of just their own selfish and narrow minded interests.

The best of deer hunting in this state is yet to come for those willing to stop snotting around and actually go out hunting.

R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

Actually, RSB, Gary Alt predicted a noticeable decline in antlered harvest for ONLY ONE YEAR!....Why is it that here we are 5 years into his "new and improved" deer program and buck harvest has steadily declined? What are the advertisements for out of state hunters saying these days? "Come hunt in deer densities less than 5 dpsm, and the lowest buck harvest in 40 years?" bet that will bring the hunters running. Obviously some things just aren't going as he predicted, are they? Not to mention he DID claim that reducing the herd would cause a "more natural breeding ecology" and produce larger bucks than we had previously ....not due to age alone, but improving genetics. This has not been shown to be true, and if it was, wouldn't the PGC be shouting it from the rooftops by now? Also you earlier stated the highest predation levels we have ever seen in the NC counties. Shouldn't we be reducing allocations there, before the coyotes reduce the herd even further, or isn't that a concern? Also, is there one single wildlife agency in the nation other than our own PGC, who is intentionally managing ANY forest at sustained owdd of less than 8 dpsm? Oh yeah....best deer hunting in the nation. Gimme a break. I think out of state license sales would be a good indicator of quality of hunting. Wonder how low ours will be this year? Wonder how high Illinois' will be?:)

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

Talk about someone using 5 year averages to hide the truth.Now here is the truth about 2.5+ buck harvests.

Year Total Buck Harvest % 2.5+ 2.5+ Buck


1996--------153,432-------------16.2------------------------24,856
1997--------176,677-------------18.6------------------------32,862
1998--------181,449-------------19.4------------------------35,201
1999--------194,371-------------20.0------------------------38,874
2000--------203,221-------------18.3------------------------37,189
2001--------203,247-------------21.6------------------------43,901
2002--------165,416-------------31.8------------------------52,602
2003--------142,270-------------43.6------------------------62,030
2004--------124,410-------------50.2------------------------62,399
2005--------120,500------------~48%-----------------------57,600
2006--------135,290--------------44%-----------------------59,527
2007--------109,200--------------44%-----------------------48,048

So, we are in fact harvesting fewer 2.5+ buck than we did in 2002, before any 1.5 buck were protected by ARs.

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

Since I started this latest hornets nest, I might as well chime in.

I really think that hunters as a whole in this state need social reengineering if you will. By that I mean this. It seems as though a lot of hunters treat hunting season like buying groceries. Too many hunters seem to think that they have the right to fill their freezer each year with all of the tags they purchase. Sorry, its hunting, not grocery shopping. It's a sport, hobby, pastetime, or whatever you may call it.

While I do agree with some that the PGC's deer program has failed in some areas. This needs to be addressed. I'm not sure how. Micromanaging areas with less deer would be very difficult at best. But if you're finding less deer in the areas you've always hunted, why hunt there? Go some place else and hunt. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Isn't that the definition of insanity?

However, I must disagree with the people saying our deer herd is worse off now than it was before all of this took place. Yes, we have fewer deer now, but we also have healthier deer and more deer carrying impressive headgear. There is not a guy alive who hunts that doesn't want to see bigger racks. Leaving the small bucks walk will only improve your chances.

We are seeing a decline in hunter recruitment. It's been happening before the new deer management program started. There is a lot more factors than a few less deer in the woods attributing to this. Trust me, I know. I have a 10 year old step son who is into all types of sports and other activities. He's interested in hunting, but we can't find the time to get him out. Heck, I have a hard time getting out as much as I'd like to because of the kids' activites.

Sproul, you made the comment that the dads' are shooting deer for the kids. If it is that serious of a problem in your area, do something about it. Call your local WCO and put the bug in his ear. If these hunters feel watched, they'll probably knock it off. However, I don't feel that's the only issue here. Think about it. That type of thing has been going on long before any management program was in place. Most kids usually only get to hunt a few days at the beginning of the week. They're usually in school by the end of the week and get a couple Saturdays after that.

Bottom line is us as hunters need to take more responsibility for our actions and not blame the PGC for everything that goes wrong in your neck of the woods. I hunt of well managed private property. We've been going by an 8pt rule for years. However, our buck/doe ratio was terrible for years. This was until the surrounding prison property opened up and left hunters kill does. They've been taking approximately 150 deer a year off of there for the past 10-15 years. Not only has our buck harvest been better, but our deer our heavier now. Seems to me that what has happened on our ground and surrounding prison property is what is now happening state wide.

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

Muzzyman88,that's great that you hunt a well managed property,but not all of us are fortunate to have that luxury.Most out there do not have the time ,money,or resources to go out and find such a precious resource so are the saddled with hunting overcrowded shot out state game lands,or worse yet giving up a sport we love because of the frustration level we now encounter.As I said before,whitetail hunting has become a huge moneymakeall across this country and Canada as well,so why would people give average Joe permission to hunt on their property for free when they can direct lease or sublease ie: www.basecampleasing.com and get $10-$30 per acre or more for sitting back and doing nothing but cash the checks.The Allegheny national forest in the north are basically void of deer where thay were once over run with them.The southwest and southeast counties that had few of no deer 20-30 years ago are now over run with them,but the population levels and restrictions all but make it impossible to hunt them.Why do you think local municipailties have resorted to hiring proffesional marksmen to come in and kill as many as possible.The PGC has done almost nothing to solve either of these.It's very apparent that there solution is to reduce the herd which in turn reduces the number of hunters which goes on to reduce the number of headaches they have to deal with.I'm not blaming them for everythingbut the Pgc has to shoulde a lot of the blame for the Disappearance of almost all small game species except for thos wild chicken thet call turkeys,as well as the mismanagement of what was once the the #1 state for whitetails.(Texas being #1 only because of sheer numbers).If thing are so great hunters would not be hanging up their guns or going to neighboring states to hunt like they are now.

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

There aren't just a few less deer there are 600,000 fewer deer or 13.3 fewer deer PSM. Then add to that the fact that the doe are being harvested during the concurrent season , which means hunters aren't seeing over an additional 150,000 does that they would have seen if doe season was after the 2 week buck season as before.

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

fellas2

You don't have to spend a lot of money to get access to private land but you may have to invest more time. I pay big $$ for a lease in Illinois. That is just how it works for an out of stater out there, period.

In Pa however, I still get to hunt very good quality land near my home on the 2B 2D border simply by investing the timeto develop relationships with people who own the land. It's a year round effort but it's worth it. Maybe you've tried and not been successful at getting permission. Me too but persitence eventually pays off. What I see all to often is guys simply looking from their truck for a patch without signs or with old signs and parking and going into te woods. Many who do bother to ask don't approach the landowner till a week or so before the season. Then they don't bother to stop by and thank the landowner or offer some of their game. I do all those things and have plenty of places to hunt in return. I often even have landowners recomend me to their neighbors.

As for the ANF, what part are you hunting? My camp is on the border near Tionesta and our gang still has very good successs there. I will say that we have had to move around a bit in recent years but we still see deer in decent numbers there.

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

Please invite me to your place to hunt ! I've spent many hours in Greene and Washington counties tring to get permission,and for the most part have been shot down immediately.Ask permisiion there and the first question they ask is "where you from" ? At that point you have two choice,lie to them or tell the truth.Go ahead and tell them you're from Pittsburgh or anywhere near Pittsburgh and you'll get run off faster than a dog on a pork chop.As far as spending time,unfortunately there are only so many hours in a day and with things the way they are today,one has to work to eat and work as much ashe has to to survive.So the majority of us "part time hunters" end up having to pay to hunt or just put up with ever we have to deal with to spend some time in the woods.

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

"Actually, RSB, Gary Alt predicted a noticeable decline in antlered harvest for ONLY ONE YEAR!...."

Yeah... He also said the ONE year of record allocation was a one time deal to make room for the bucks saved.It dropped insignificantly the following year only to have it HIGHER THAN EVER AND ANOTHER RECORD HIGH ALLOCATION the following year!

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

Rsb, your data is a pathetic attempt to hide the continual downhill slide of the last 5 years. Last year fewer 2.5's were killed then previously and that only goes to show there are NOT more and bigger bucks. Its a failed program and bunching up data in an attempt to decieve will be pointed out, and you should know that by now, so why even bother? Im sure we all appreciate your views, but would like a bit more of an honest attempt at debate from you without all the "shenanigans" (LOL).

"I really think that hunters as a whole in this state need social reengineering if you will."

Not hardly. That may be the case among a few of your friends? I know noone like that. I knowpeople who see real problems and what real solutions. Not false promises andsmokeblown.

"While I do agree with some that the PGC's deer program has failed in some areas. This needs to be addressed. I'm not sure how. Micromanaging areas with less deer would be very difficult at best."

Not when complete wmus for the most part are far below carryingcapacity and many of which alsoare rated as low human conflict even by pgcs obtuse standards.

"However, I must disagree with the people saying our deer herd is worse off now than it was before all of this took place. Yes, we have fewer deer now, but we also have healthier deer and more deer carrying impressive headgear."

Or so youve been told. Pgcs own data says otherwise. My observations and those of mostI know say otherwise. The local buck contests say otherwise.Pgcs own latestfailed scoring session (first in six years!) says otherwise.... There are more big buck PERCENTAGEWISE, but percentagewise gains us nothing. Numberswise we have fewer than previously.

"There is not a guy alive who hunts that doesn't want to see bigger racks. Leaving the small bucks walk will only improve your chances."

Idont shoot ar minimums. Im selective. Hasnt a thing to do withme approving or not approving of the unwarranteddeer slaughter.

"We are seeing a decline in hunter recruitment. It's been happening before the new deer management program started."

From 2001 to 2006 our numbers have declined at OVER DOUBLE the national average. The national average according to usfws was 4% per year in that time period. Ours was 10%. HOw you people can just "shrug" that off as the "norm" when it ISNT and try to blame anything other than the sham deer plan when its obvious is beyond me brother!

Ya got areas with 50% or more less deer! You have a completely smug irresponsive agency, and they cant figure out why so many are quitting....DUH!!

No. I dont believe they are idiots. Ibelieve they know EXACTLY why, they just dont want to take the responsibility for it and have no plans on "fixing" it by addressing the problem.

There is a lot more factors than a few less deer in the woods attributing to this. Trust me, I know. I have a 10 year old step son who is into all types of sports and other activities. He's interested in hunting, but we can't find the time to get him out. Heck, I have a hard time getting out as much as I'd like to because of the kids' activites.

Sproul, you made the comment that the dads' are shooting deer for the kids. If it is that serious of a problem in your area, do something about it. Call your local WCO and put the bug in his ear. If these hunters feel watched, they'll probably knock it off. However, I don't feel that's the only issue here. Think about it. That type of thing has been going on long before any management program was in place. Most kids usually only get to hunt a few days at the beginning of the week. They're usually in school by the end of the week and get a couple Saturdays after that.

Bottom line is us as hunters need to take more responsibility for our actions and not blame the PGC for everything that goes wrong in your neck of the woods. I hunt of well managed private property. We've been going by an 8pt rule for years. However, our buck/doe ratio was terrible for years. This was until the surrounding prison property opened up and left hunters kill does. They've been taking approximately 150 deer a year off of there for the past 10-15 years. Not only has our buck harvest been better, but our deer our heavier now. Seems to me that what has happened on our ground and surrounding prison property is what is now happening state wide.

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

i just got off the phone with WCO.

he did catch one of our worst poachers but only could get him for USING A SPOTLIGHT AFTER HRS..

he also stated that overtime is cut to almost just 5 hrs a month.

sooooooooooooooooooooo,you can see SPROUL does contact and help the local WCO.

this is why i have to keep my identity secret,if not, information i get will dry up.

rendell has freeze on money right now, if we dont report what is happening, its going to continue..

if a WCO does not stop and tell crews and hunters he sees that he is WATCHING the DADS/UNCLES/COUSINS/FRIENDS shooting deer for kids,IT WILL CONTINUE.

YOU ARE RIGHT BUT ITS UP TO PGC TO STOP THIS .

THEY CAN STOP IT BY GTETTING IN FACE OF ALL OF US AND LETTINGUS KNOW IT WILL NOTTOLERATED.[:@]

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

Sproul, I commend you for reporting people like that. More hunters need to do this. Turn up the heat on the idiots who are poaching in or out of season.

We had a couple of poaching incidents around here too. A couple of complaints to the warden in our area cured that up pretty quickly.

I realize where everyone is coming from in this debacle, I really do. But I do believe our bucks are getting better. I don't think we'll ever see the numbers of record class deer coming out of PA as you do other states. There are simply too many hunters and not enough land for that to happen.

I personally would love to see us go back to seperated seasons for buck and doe and also go 4pts a side statewide.

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

fellas2

Are you talking the ANF area or the private stuff close to home?

email or PM me. I can't give up all my hard earned secrets publicly but I might be inclined to help a little

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

;) now you have very good idea i did not think of.

if it was 2 weeks of buck /3 days of doe, that would be a big dissappointment to the brown its down crowd with kids.

those hunters would have to look before shooting a deer in both the buck season /3 day doe season.

they would have to make sure its buck in buck and not a buck in doe season.

they still could shoot the little buck in buck season but would take some of the problem out.

thats good idea, not perfect, but improvement.


what a great idea.;)

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

Personally, I like the change they're implementingin 2D 2G etc with the first 5 days being buck only followed by a concurrent season.

It sounds like a good idea but only time will tell

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

yes, saturday of first week will be like first day.

MOST are already getting ready to get their doe in oct. muzzleloader this year more than waiting for saturday of dec.

i wish it was for 2 weeks,then 3 days of doe.

almost everyone i talk too wants to go back to old rules.:eek:

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

CHEEZ, two weeks of buck followed by 2-3 days antlerless,what a novel idea !!! How'd they come up with that one ? Let me think back,let see,was that here in PA FOR ABOUT FIFTY YEARS.Used to be the booklet was 10 pages in a pocket sized version and took 10 minutes to read,Had the same book forever other than season dates.Now you got to spend an entire evening and have a degree to read a full size magazine cause nothings the same from one year to the next.They change everything but the need to use Davie Crocket's flintlock in muzzleloader season.Even Ohio (NO OFFENSE TO YOU OHIO GUYS) lets them use inlines during their season,but we gotta still carry 200 year old technology.

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

I haven't posted for awhile so I'll chime in.
I'm lucky enough to have two tracts of private land to hunt here in Lancaster county.The SGL's here are pathetic and I'm done hunting them.
As for our camp in the NC again lucky enough to hunt on private land with most of it being open to hunting.However there's just enough posted properties to keep a decent number of deer around.
The state forest around our camp is pathetic within a 45 minute drive in any direction.I'm talking about deer.
I feel for you guys stuck on public land and advise you to seek some private land or get a lease cause it aint going to get better.
Some will say I'm being negative but I tells it as I see it.

RE: Article on PA hunting
 

Good to see you back Germain. How've ya been?