RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

That statement is completely ridiculous.

Could you please provide a link or a reference to anything indicating where and when QDMA recommended or published support for a sustained doe harvest of 29 doe PSM. A sustained doe harvest of 29 per square mile would require a pre season deer density somewherearound 90-100 when other incidental mortalities are considered

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

Uh, anyone who takes the time to read your post addressing me personally will see the rage and frustration you obviously have pent up inside. You chose to personally attack me with some left field allegations after being a part of this forum for exactly two days. The first thing you need tounderstand is that hunting is not a competitive sport and if you can't accept that, you need to take up another hobby.

This thread was started as an attack on certain deer experts as evidenced by the title "Witch doctors". In this thread as in many others, I challenged bluebird for posting things incorrectly. He has been banned here under no less than four other screen names for doing that very thing before. You are either him under yet another name or something I said hit home enough for you to take it personally. Whatever it was, it wasn't directed at you unless you are another AKA Bluebird.

I dispute Bluebird here constantly because he relentlessly posts long messages brimming with numbers and often takes many convoluted steps to take facts out of context to cause 2+2 to appear to equal 3. If that is what offended you, too bad.

As for the personal attacks, Is that the best you got? Being called the alpha hunter would normally be a complement but not when it comes from an omega hunter. (I'll save you time byexplaining to you that Alpha is the first andOmega is the last word in the greek alphabet) And calling me scooter? Wow, LOL, I'm really hurt and hoppin mad now!

Your attack sparked a response appropriate for you. Sniveling squeal now seems more an appropriate handle for you. I'm sure screaming steel feels more macho butit doesn't fit the image you've put out here. Want to stopthe personal attacks and name calling? Make an apology for starting it all and I'll remove every part of my responses that sunk down to your level.

You haven't got a clue about me but you give us all some major clues about you. Your words were ripe with jealous rage. So much so thatyoumight as well have posted your words in green. I don't call myself an alpha hunter so for you to say it in the context you did heavily implies and inherent jealousy for your perception of what you think to be my measure of success. Here's a clue, hunting is not a competitive sport and if you see it as one, you really need to consider another pastime.

You hide behind a screen name yet you take me to task for listing my associations with pro hunting,profishing and conservation groups.Again,if that offends you, don't read it.

You might want to count to 10 or better yet, have someone help you count to 100 before you post again. As I said above, this can end now but it's all up to you.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

Before I provide a link to the Alshiemer article I thought we could all use a got laugh since things are getting a little heated . Here is an example of how gullible and unquestioning a QDM expert can be when he hears what he wants to hear.
Instead of tripling the number of 8pt. bucks ARs didn't even come close to doubling the number of 8 pts. since the 2.5+ buck harvest only increased from 52,602 in 2002 to 62,030 in 2003.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

He he. Yes bluebird, thats EXTREMELY funny. Wonder how many "more and bigger" bucks were harvested last year with our whopping 109k buck harvest? (LOL)

Funny thing is, the harvest was blamed on ONE DAY of weather by pgc at first... Now seems theyve reconsidered.

Rosenberry has come out and stated our deer numbers this season should be about the same as last year,(not higher), and he also stated hunters shouldnt expect the hunting to be any easier because of it.

Now correct me if Im wrong bluebird, but if we were supposed to stabilize the herd last season, yet we harvested less deer than anticipated due to the weather as was SUPPOSEDLY the case, shouldnt we have MORE deer this season? Not that I think that the case, because I think the small harvest was due to one thing....Far fewer deer and too much reduction.

An excerpt from PGC press release #100-08

There is no reason to believe that deer hunting will be any easier this fall, although drought-like conditions in some areas of the state may make it easier to pattern deer movements to food and water sources. An early leaf drop also may increase your ability to see deer at a distance. Gypsy moth caterpillar defoliation on hundreds of thousands of forestland acres again has limited acorn production in stands of oak.

“Hunters should expect to find deer populations similar to those they encountered last year,” said Dr. Christopher Rosenberry, who supervises the Game Commission’s Deer Management Section.

Ahhh. Our fine wildlife management agency never fails to amaze me!:eek:

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

If the buck harvest was down 20% in 2007 and the antlerless harvest was also lower, then the buck harvest this year should increase by at least 20%,unless we have sleet,rain ,fog ,high winds heavy snowfall,tornadoes and earthquakes the first two days of the concurrent season.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

Why end it? It's quite entertaining. Poke fun atmy screen name if you like. It's a reference to my bike, not myself, so no harm no foul. As for my casting a stereotype on you...is it really any more unfair than the stereotype you stamp upon anyone who disgrees with the PGC's management practices? That we are all disgruntled, three day hunters whose lucky stump went cold? I feel no obligation to refute your claim, but I'll make the gesture for entertainment purposes. My seven of my last eight deer came with a bow. I won't bother trying to calculate how many hours I log in the woods during bow season, gun season, scouting, etc. But suffice it to say that it's plenty. And for the record, I am fully capable of killing deer at will. I've tagged a rack buck four of the last five years, last year I miffed on a mature deer that responded to a combination of my calling and strategic scent placement, and though I did not tag a buck,I had the satisfaction on passing six legal bucks, and two that were pretty nice. It was a great year. By the way...aside from the pleasure of sharing the stories of the hunt, all of that has nothing to do with whether or not a resource is being managed responsibly. Individual success never did and never will gauge the success of a mgt plan. There are just too many variables at play. Was my stereotype of you unfair? Maybe. But your's was as well. You simply refuse to give any credit to anyone who disagrees with the current course. Rather tha even consider the possibilities, it is easier to write them off as disgruntled stump sitters.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

Maybe when you check into the anger management counseling, you can find a course in reading comprehension. This thread was started by Bluebird and his witch doctor slams. I made no mention of disgruntled stump sitters whatsoever till your post brought it up. But since you brought the idea up, your commenst obviously indicated that you must be very sensitive to that stereotype. My experience has shown thats where there's smoke there's generally a fire. People most offended by stereotypes often are offended because they happen to fit them. Your need to tell me that you can still kill a deer speaks volumes about just how sensitive you must be about your abilities as a hunter.

That being said, I actually agree that there have been some failuresover thepast recent years with PA's management of the deer herd. Bluebird even has a point once in awhile that isn't a distortion or ouright lie (it's been a while but even a stopped clock is rght twice a day) What youwill eventually learn, is that aligning with Bluebirds smoke and mirrors methodology casts you into one of two stereotypes. Either you align with him because you are willing to say anddistortanything to further your cause or youare indeedone of those uninformed, frustrated stump sitters who buys into his distortions. Perhaps you are neither. If you are neither, I suggest you read every one of his posts VERY CAREFULLY. It's been going on for over 5 years and the pattern indicates his little checkers game with the facts are intentional.

For example Bluebird said:

Does anyone in his right mind beleive that ANYONE would promote a deer density so high that it could sustain a HARVEST of 29 doe per square mile? A sustained doe harvest that large would require a pre season density of 90-100 DPSM whenadult bucks, buck fawns, and non hunting mortality are also considered. He expects us to buy that fairy tale?

He's been banned under the names deerfly, deaddeer, ddearand beenthere to name a few for repeatedly hammering this forum with lies and distortions. It's not because he disagrees with the PGC it's been because of his tactics when posting his opinions. The only reason he's still here now is that It's become obvious that the mods have given up on policing this part of huntingnet as evidenced by the degeneration of this and other current threads.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

Perhaps he can provide a link. In any event, it wasn't his proposal, it was the QDM crowd, obviously speaking of the properties that they routinely manage at such high densities. As for Bluebird, I'm no newcomer to his discussions. I've been following this debate for good long time myself. I've rarely seen anyone with such a good grasp of the PGC data, and so efficient at using it to dispute the current deer plan. Maybe if you ask him "real nice", he will provide you with some details of his background, and how that qualifies him sufficiently to speak on habitat issues. BTW, I didn't expect you would believe that I am anything other than a stump sitter, so your further speculation on my hunting ability doesn't bother me, either.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

[quote ]Perhaps he can provide a link. [/quote]

He cant, it doesnt exist

The QDM crowd philosophy is exactly opposite.QDMA generally promotes lower densities and therefore a healthier herd.

I guess that should come as no surprise based on your obviously very shallow reading comprehension skills as evidenced in these last few pages

Asked many many times but never answered because no such qualifications exist

The fact that you are blindly buying into his 2+2 equals 3 numericalspinning of the facts tellsus about your real comprehension of the situation.The fact that you are so defensive aboutthe stereotype of the "stump sitter"as you call him that you brought it up and then just had to tell us what a good hunter you are says volumes about your self esteem in that area. When one is good at something, there is no need to have to tell someone. Defending ones self when nothing derogatory has even been said to them tells us of his own inferiority complex in that area. You are behaving exactly as one would expect from the stereotyped group thatyou so vocally claim not to be a part of.

The reason I continue to challenge bluebirds mind numbing deluge of numbers and facts out of context is to hopefully get a few to actuallyweed out the smoke and mirrors and look twiceat how he's arranged the numbers to his advantage. He's famous for taking this line from one place and that fact from another and part of a paragraph from another and putting them in the blender to completely rearrange the intent of a statement or report. Perhaps it's asking too much of you to read his posts with a little more scrutiny.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

"The QDM crowd philosophy is exactly opposite.QDMA generally promotes lower densities and therefore a healthier herd. "

That is, unless it is their land, land they hunt or land they sell hunts upon...Thens its see how many deer canbe squeezedinto one food plot at a time.:D Then turn around and support (by word evenif not action)the basic principals of "reducing the herd". (LOL) Tell them to reduce their herds to levels across most of Pa and your likely to see alot of stammering and stuttering! (LOL)[:@]

"I guess that should come as no surprise based on your obviously very shallow reading comprehension skills as evidenced in these last few pages"

Comical how you yelp continually about people getting kicked off yet its you who hurls the insults continually, and provides zero in the way of legit discussion. Every one of your posts is ridiculing others, complaining about the facts provided as "distortions" or some other form of whining. All that does is illicit similar responses from others and it snowballs.Its clear you are a troll looking to get someone banned, because far too much damage is being done to pgcs credibility. Apparently you are used to posting on "Huntpa" where challenging Pgc policy is a definate no-no. Thankfully people usually arent usually censored completely on the topic on most forums not so stronglyaffiliated with pgc.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

Wrong again BT. Do you really believe I would make up such ridiculous quotes that even you can't believe are true.

http://www.whitetailinstitute.com/in.../sept04/2.html

Isn't it funny that Alsheimer didn't have any formal training or qualifications, yet he is considered to be an expert on QDM.

Remember it was you ,not me, that make the false and misleading claims about Dr. Kroll's article about the results from Miss.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

Legit discussion?

I guess for an obvious PGC basher, a thread that starts by calling wildlife managers witch doctors is a forum for "legit discussion"

Oh and here's your very first contribution to this "legit discussion"...

and from your most recent contribution....

you and bluebird both began with insults and ridicule. I think we can all see who the trolls are

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

Thanks for finally providing the link. As I suspected,there is no statement advocatinga deer density that would provide a sustaineddoe harvest of 29 per square mile. That number is presented as the plan for a specific property where neighboring properties are not managed properly so the excess doe are killed off from within their relatively small parcel.


Here's what Alsheimer does say

Once again, you have attempted to piece together parts of different truths to assemble a lie. Anyone with a brain need only read the entire article toget the proper perspective instead of your warped take on it.

Oh and this little gem....

is one of your most pathetic lies yet. Your sole answer to Dr Krolls finding was to claim that he's biased. Sorry Larry,no cigar!

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

My original quote was accurate and wasn't taken out of context. Alsheimer said they were harvesting 8-10 does off of his 200 acres and that the recommended harvest was 45 doe /1000 acres or 28.8 doe PSM.
That simply is not true and you are once again misrepresenting what I said. If you weren't so bias you might remember that I pointed out that Dr. Kroll indicated the decrease in rack sizes was due to genetics and I pointed out that Dr. Demarais said it was due to high grading. Dr. Kroll demonstrated a profound lack of knowledge about Miss. and Alsheimer demonstrated the same profound lack of knowledge about PA when he printed Alt's claims about ARs.

I really don't understand why you have to rely on accusing me of lying ,when you claim to have the facts to prove I am wrong. Wouldn't you be much more effective if you presented the facts to support your position like I do?

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

I must say that it takes an incredible amount of gall to claim that you have a better understanding of Miss than the most respected wildilfe biologist of our time.

My position is that I support the conclusions of the professionals most of the time. I'm not 100% happy with everychange thats been made.The process has been one of bumpy progress but I view it as progress nonetheless. The vast majority of wildlife scientists are on the same page as well.


Your position has been one of constant criticism of the current management without any positive input. I don't necessarily blame you for the lack of positive input because I realize that haven't the knowledge or expertise to provide any positive better ideas. You cling to the discredited (by his fellow biologists) findings of one wildlife manager as part of your "position" I think I'll hang with the majority. Just because you can't accept the fact that more responsible game managementis now the goal doesnt make you right.

Like the last USP lawsuit, your position is without merit. Your tenacity in continually take things out of context by using information developed by others to turn it around for your own agenda doesnt fly here. My position is to continue catch the distortions and point them out.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

It doesn't take gall it just takes more knowledge and being objective. I have been following what Miss. has been doing for many years and know for a fact that Dr. Demarias attributed the decrease in rack sizes in Miss. to high grading and not to a change in the gene pool . Furthermore Dr. Demarias did not base his conclusions on the theory that spikes are inferior and the fact that Kroll made that claim shows that he didn't take the time to research the facts regarding Miss. ARs.

I may not be an expert ,but I have enough knowledge and experience to read the articles by the so called experts and point out their flaws and contradictions. The reasons Kroll cited for supporting ARs were laughable at best and ridiculous at their worst. Alsheimers article recommended a doe harvest of 29 DPSM while in the same article stating that most habitats can support 35-40 DPSM. Kroll also claimed PA had shown,"some amazing results" which is also laughable when you consider their is no data that shows ARs increased the rack sizes of 2.5+ buck and that we are harvesting fewer 2.5+ buck than we did in 2002.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

Wrong again!

Dr Kroll clearly has said that no determination as to genetic quality can be made based on antler size on a 1.5 year old deer. He never said that spikes were inferior as you claim and you know that full well.

And you wonder why I characterize you posts as lies ?!?!?!?

Once again,you provide partial truths and assemble them into a lie. All one has to do is read either of the ENTIRE articles by Alsheimer or Kroll to recognize that.

Your abilities to judge wildlife management ranks up there with the auto mechanic who feels qualified to pick a stock portfolio because he reads the financial section once a week.

Your wildlife management skills are on par with the Dentist who decides he can build his own home after watching a few episodes of this old house.

Your wildlife management skills rank righton parwith a carpenter delivering his wifes baby after seeing it done on Seinfeld.

My point is that a little knowledge can be helpful but in the wrong hands it is dangerous. You are those wrong hands.

Second opinions are always a good idea and we certainly have good cause to get second opinions but I think I'll look to the professionals for mine.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

I did not say Dr. kroll said spikes were inferior, what I said was Kroll accussed Dr. Demarais of assuming spikes were inferior.

Here is a direct quote from the Kroll article.

"Of course ,it was assumed that spiked yearlings were genetically inferior,but this premise has not been proved."

Dr. Demarasi never made that claim and it is highly unprofessional for Kroll to make that assumption.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

"Your abilities to judge wildlife management ranks up there with the auto mechanic who feels qualified to pick a stock portfolio because he reads the financial section once a week. "

In other words bluebird, I think he means you're two steps ahead of Pgc.;)

I do find it quite odd that PGC hasnt mentioned any findings or study results showing that those genetic maleffects are not happening here. One would think after seeing it occur elsewhere, ahead of time, that the studies would have been conducted since day one, and that some results could be verified by now.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

I am also 2 steps ahead of the financial advisors at Fannie Mae ,freddie mac, Lehman Brothers and Aig since my portfolio has not been effected by the recent stock market turmoil. Instead ,I am making money due to the stock market vloatility
Remember all the useless studies the PGC did to convince hunters that the PGC was really concerned about the quality of deer hunting in PA. The fact that the PGC refuses to release the data from their annual surveys at deer processors tells me they are hiding something. If the data showed ARs produced a dramatic improvement in rack sizes of 2.5+ buck, that info would be screaming headlines.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

Fair enough. Just for the record, what are the average DD in Brown and Pike Counties Illinois, some of those most intensively QDM manged land anywhere? Better yet, what are the DD goals on your own managed properties there?

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

Illinois DNR has far less information readily available for the public. I'll email a resident friend and see if he has any better sources for information. Here's what we do know. Recent deer harvest densities for Pike and Brown were 9.1 and 8.0 deer harvested PSM. Those are posted DNR numbers. It's pretty much a general consensus that does are not being harvested enough statewide. Doe tags are unlimited over the counter for archery and very liberal for both firearms and muzzleloaders

Contrary to what you may think, Illinois properties are not nearly as "managed" as you would think. There's very little public ground and the landowner or leaseholder is, in effect, the deer manager. Based on my own observations, theres way more seat of the pants management than anything else. Much like PA, the management varies wildly from property to property. Unlike PA, sheer hunter numbers are much fewer.

On one of our farms that just happens to be 640 acres, exactly one square mile, we have had an annualharvest goal minmum of 15 adult does and half that number as our max goal for bucks 3.5 and older.The tenant farmer estimates that he loses up to 30% of his crop to the deer and our doe kill numbers at first were simply to honor his request.We have complied and it seems to be working well. It must be noted that this particular example has huge blocks of timbered property around it that is either not hunted or is lightly hunted.

I don't claim to be a wildlife biologist but here are some observations based on 12 years of participating in one form or another in Illionis.

Antler restrictions don't exist in the part of Illinois where I hunt simply because they arent needed. Illinois huntersjust don't shoot immature bucks. It's simply their culture. I'm not sure how it evolvedbecause the practice was in place when I first went there. The average hunter expects to shoot a few does for meat and lets young bucks walk.

Having hunted there for 12 years and having had the opportunity to observe bucks of all ages in sufficient numbers, We all know that the three factors that affect antler quality are genetics, nutrition and age.Mypersonal observationslead me to agree with the experts that list the order of importance of those three as 1 Age, 2 Nutrition, and 3 Genetics.

We have also seen evidence of the striking difference in antler development based on the birthdate of the buck fawns. On a scouting, shed huntingtrip we saw a fawn being born on April 1. Unusual but not really remarkable till a localtold us that it wasn't that unusual. We have observed and several occasions, small antlered bucks that still had the two rows of faded spots running down their back. The spots were undeniable indicating that these were buck fans of the year. IMHO,the fact that these buck fawns developing antlers, however small, in their first year are an indicator of why we have had 125" class bucks harvested that aged at 1.5 years and yes, we have had that happen!

It is also interesting to note that we had one harvested here in PA last year less than a mile from my campin 2F. The buck was harvested as an antlerless deer in the early muzzy season. FWIW,The shooter was personally very unhappy about shooting the small buck but he had observed the deer for 3-4 minutes in a scope and still failed to see the antlers.) The very thin spikes measured 2" and 1 3/4" and the deer had the undeniable two rows of faded spots that a fawn loses last running down its' back. Yes it's just one deer but this phenomenon has been virtually unheard of anywhere I've hunted in PA. I take that as an indication ofimproving herd health.


Disclaimer: much of this is simply from personal observations and experience. It's up to the reader to interperet as he sees fit. I have no doubt that Bluebird will dive into this post with his calculator and come up with a post that twists and turns it around in order to make another unwarranted attack on Pa's deer management. To the rest of you, these personal notes areobservations from our little group. Nothing more

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

Based on the data you provided you are trying to harvest 21 DPSM,while in PA the average post season deer density goal was only 12 DPSM. which would have produced a harvest of around 4 DPSM. If you are harvesting around 33% of your PS deer, then before hunting season you had a DD of around 64 DPSM.

What your data shows is that QDM leases are managed at DDs that are more than triple the densities that PA is managing our herd.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

See! I told ya!!
Bluebird has to twist it all up. Screaming Steel asks a fair question. I was reluctant to respond for good reason but the question was posed reasonably so i answered that way. Now Bluebird ignores my last paragraph, tries to oversimplify and compare two states that are HUGELY different in terms of habitat. He also ignores that our very localized specific harvest goals include deer that spill over from unhunted properties and makes a broad based declaration about all QDM properties. SS, maybe now you can begin to understand why I claim that Bluebird intentionally distorts facts to suit his agenda.




Guess what Larry? Your apples vs oranges question is irrelevant!

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

I didn't twist anything,because it doesn't matter if some of the deer you harvested come from adjoining properties , because some of the deer from your lease may harvested on the adjoining property. And it is funny that Alsheimer used the same excuse for harvesting 8-10 doe/ 200 acres.



QDM supporters make a concerted effort to hide the true DD on their leases by claiming they harvest a lot of doe. What they don't tell you is the high harvest is needed because of the high OWDD. Remember ,the DD Alsheimer reported were for Stueben Co. NY , which is just over the border from Potter and Tioga Co.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

You are wasting your time BTBowhunter! It's useless with these guys.[:@]

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

It is only useless because you,BTB and RSB don't have the facts to support your position. All BTB can do is accuse me of lying ,while at the same time he posts data about his lease that proves QDM herds are managed at much higher densities that the PGC will allow.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

Wrong again! I posted some specifics as related to one square mile of property and included all the facts. You chose those that suited you and attempted to turn it around.

You said:

So lets see, are the Girl Scouts on te 1000 acre camp next door suddenly going to start killing deer? Maybe the 80+ year old widow who has one grandson who kills one deer a year max on her hundreds of acres will start hunting and mow em down. Maybe the State park will start letting people hunt that 1500+/- acres thats currently closed to hunting.

Just one more example of Bluebird making up his own facts to suit his agenda.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

"Remember all the useless studies the PGC did to convince hunters that the PGC was really concerned about the quality of deer hunting in PA. The fact that the PGC refuses to release the data from their annual surveys at deer processors tells me they are hiding something. If the data showed ARs produced a dramatic improvement in rack sizes of 2.5+ buck, that info would be screaming headlines"

I agree 100%. And i find theirlack of plastering all that "supportive data" into our faces peculiar to say the least. Especially when their plan is under scrutiny, highly suspect and they claim to be badly in need of license fee increase. One would think a license fee increase would be a bit more acceptable if more "successes" were shown instead of nothing but one failed prediction after the next.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

Without a doubt you provided facts for your lease in Ill. which showed you managed the herd at a much higher DD then the PGC will allow. As yet you have provided no facts about the PGC deer management plan.

The fact remains that the deer you kill are on your property and contribute to the deer density on your lease. It doesn't matter if the two adjoining properties have 100 DPSM, your lease still has a DD that is over 3 0r 4 times the density at which the PGC is managing our herd.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

You are correct WTD. The good news is that with almost 800 hits on this thread, it appears that Bluebird has only managed to find a couple of people foolish enough to buy into his fantasy deer management league.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

And all you have on your side is RSB and WTD. Like you WTD has contributed nothing factual and RSB has done nothing but attempt to deceive and mislead. So, I guess we are about equal,except that unlike you I can support my position with facts.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

Sounds about right. Glad to see you're coming around!;)

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

Yeah...So many people support pgc these days! (LOL)(LOL)

Why there are the infamous "deer-wars" why they'rebeing sued, gonna be audited, and the target of government intervention in the way of preventing license fee increase...


These things dont happen just cuz a couple guys who cant hunt like to whine.:D Huge majority of HUNTERS dont trust them or the deer plan. A couple who happen to be pgc employees close loyal friends and family members might, but probably not even most of them... We do have Audubon though who support pgc efforts 110%.[:'(] But you must consider they are a tiny minority and have very extreme "antideer" views. They are happy with extreme reduction and the program because they had a large part in designing it, so one could only expect their approval.


NIce fake quote from bluebird. Very "adult" of you.;)

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

Sorry but it just isnt so.

Study after study has shown that on average, when someone is satisfied, they say very little and menton it to 3 people or less. When unsatisfied, people become very vocal and tell 10+ people.


When dealing with unsolicited commentary, the complainers have to outnumber the others by better than three to one just to show a satisfaction rate of 50/50.

The whiners in PA definitely havent outnumbered the happy hunters in any sportsemns gathering places I've seen and the letters to editors statewide have been running 50/50 at best

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

Now that is about as low as it gets on the MB. You accuse me of lying while at the same time you falsify a quote of something I didn't post. But then again, that is about the level of dishonesty I would expect from a QDM ,PGC supporter.

If you have such low ethical standards on a MB ,I hate to even think what your ethical standards are while you are hunting.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

"Sorry but it just isnt so."

Oh but it is, and its a well known fact.

"Study after study has shown that on average, when someone is satisfied, they say very little and menton it to 3 people or less. When unsatisfied, people become very vocal and tell 10+ people. "

Many have little desire to deal with "extremists" of the opposing view on message boards for years and years, not to mention being ignored by Pgc.... But why do you think legislators have letters stacked to the ceiling?LOL Guess Gary Alt needed bodyguards to keep away all his "adoring fans".(LOL)


"The whiners in PA definitely havent outnumbered the happy hunters in any sportsemns gathering places I've seen and the letters to editors statewide have been running 50/50 at best "

1. you must be hanging out at Elmerton Avenue, because anywhere else, I dont think you'd find that to be the case.
2. Letters to the editor Ive seenagainst the failed programin the last several years, including this one, outnumber those for it by 5 to one, conservatively.... And when I see one, its usually by one of Pgc unofficial pr- people like Kathy Davis or another close pgc associate, which cannot be given much "weight" anyway due to the heavy bias. Seems the same few are those doing damage control on each board, and doing things like authoring the "hunting license fee petition" and other pro-pgc duties... How bout that petition? Boy that sure was a flop!! Was advertised on all the internet sites, in newspapers, etc. Passed around to clubs...Heck pgc alone has like 800 employees and Id seen that several signed....And still the total sigs where rock bottom. A flop from word go! VERY predictable imho. Only goes to show what most already know. People just dont support our deer "plan" and no longer trust the game commission.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

http://pa.audubon.org/docs/deer_report/lanc_sunday_news_jon_rutter.pdf

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

The only difference between my little joke there and your posts is that I made it very obvious when I distorted your words. The ;)at the end was to call attention to the spoof.

You do the same thing every day. You just do it in a verystealthy fashion.

RE: Witch Doctors Should Hunters Believe
 

Your post wasn't a joke, it was a flat out lie. This is not a comedy show ,it is a message board and we are discussing deer management issues. I have demonstrated where Dr. Alt lied and where Alsheimer promoted that lie and all you can do is come back with yet another lie. IMHO that is about as low as it gets.