Should hunters believe Dr. Alt, Dr. Rosenberry, Dr, Alsheimer or Dr. Demarasis? Dr. Alt and Dr. Rosenberry agreed we had too many deer and had to reduce the herd by around 50% which would result in an average DD of 12 DPSM. But here is what Dr. Alshieimer has to say about the carrying capacity of most of our state.


"The proper number of deer per square mile of deer habitat will vary by region. In our farm rich area of New York State , biologists would like to see no more than 35-40 deer per square mile. Unfortunately these numbers haven’t been seen for more than two decades."

He goes onto say this about the doe harvests that are recommeded.
"In our QDM program we typically harvest between 8 and 12 does per season on our 200 acres. This is a bit more than the normal recommended harvest of 45 does per 1,000 acres, but we harvest a few more than some might think we need to because some of our surrounding neighbors do not believe in killing does."


A harvest rate of 10 doe /200 acres equals a harvest of 32 doe/SM. A harvest rate of 45 does/1000 acres equals 29 doe PSM. So Dr. Al recommends a doe harvest which is over twice what Dr. Alt and Dr. Rosenberry recommends as the over wintering carrying capacity of the habitat. So who should the average hunter believe?

Obviously not every biologist and deer manager in the country agree with the PGC plan. But try telling that to the fan club. BTW, just a little poke. I don't subscribe to "witch doctors." More ofa Pennsylvania Dutch pow wower, myself!

First, you have no idea who you're talking about. Charles Alsheimer is an outdoor writer, photographer and editor. He is a well respected member of the outdoor press but he is not a Doctor of anything. As always, you fail to get the real facts before you post.

BTW here is his website biography page.Maybe he just forgot to mention that PHD huh?
http://charliealsheimer.com/ca/bio.html

Second,those numbers you quoted regarding Dr Alt and Dr Rosenberry are your interperetations and not the goals as stated by them. You can provide no link where either Alt or Rosenberry stated that a 50% reduction was the goal

Third, you obviously failed to mention Dr Kroll AKA Dr Deer. Funny how you left out the man who is probably the most respected wildlife biologist out there today. Of course we all know that you've accused him of being biased because his findings refute all your theories.

With every post you do inadvertently shed some light on who hunters ought to trust.

Hunters would be better served by believing the professionals rather than a self appointed and vocal internet hack who takes bits of data collected by those professionals out of context and twists it to his own conclusions.

Just as it makes no sense to choose a stock reccomended by the landscaper or letting an auto mechanic take out your appendix, it makes no sense to accept conclusions drawn by one or two internet "experts" who won't even offer their real names let alone their qualifications that give them some basisfor constantly criticizing the professionals

I am surprised you would choose to question that fact considering the 2007 buck harvest was down 47% from 2001. Have you forgotten Alt said they wanted to reduce the herd by 5%/year for 10 years.

Actually Dr. Kroll's research supports my position,it is just that he rearches the wrong conclusions. He doesn't even recognize the obvious effects of high grading that occurred due to ARs in Miss.

Apparently numerous experts claim the majority of habitat in PA can support 35-40 DPSM, while the PGC claimed 5C could only support 6 DPSM. So "WITCH" experts should we believe?

So when did Charlie Alsheimer get his PHD? Or are you bestowing those now too?

Couldn't find that link, eh?

Why not write up your own conclusions correcting Dr Kroll and submit them to all the hunting publications and we'll see who believes you over Dr deer

Another classic Deaddeer, deerfly,beenther,bluebird2, ddear, Larry darryl and darryl distortion. I challenge you to produce a link quoting a few of your "numerous experts" claiming exactly what the habitat in PA vcan support. Oh and comparing 5C to the rest of the state is bogus too. When the 6 DPSM goal was released (no longer being used BTW) it very clearly stated that this was agoal based on human/deer conflict in an SRA urban WMU

If the habitat in mixed farmland and woods in NY can support 35-40 DPSM, why wouldn't similar habitat in PA support at least as many deer? Furthermore you are flat out wrong about the 6 DPSM goal for 5 C. The for 5 C was that low because 5C is only 33.7% forested and the PGC only considers forested habitat when establishing DD goals. The goal in 5B was 5 DPSM because 5B is only 27% forested. When the PGC switched from DPFSM to DPSM they did not establish the new goals based on deer human conflict.

As we all figured.No evidenceto back your claims

None documenting whomade Charlie Alsheimer a"doctor" as you claim

None documenting Dr Alt or Roseberryclaiming the need for a 50% herd reduction as you claim.

Nothingto back up your claim that Dr Kroll is biased

Nothingtelling us who these unnamed "numerous experts" that haveclaimed that PA's habitat can support 35-40 DPSM or any documentation thatthese "numerous experts"made these claims

As for the no longer used and now obsolete DD goals that were once stated for SRA's, The PGC did clearly cite the urban nature of SRA's as one of the reasons for the low number (again, an obsolete criteria anyway). This may come as a newsflash for you but trees don't grow on concrete or blacktop and buildings, shopping malls houses, golf coursesand playgrounds arent really that good for deer habitat.

The PGC never stated DD goals for the SRA areas. The deer in the SRA areas weren't even included in the statewide harvest estimates until 2003 or 2004 when Alt claimed we had 1.6 M deer ,based on the flawed computer model. Prior to that the goal for the SRA counties was zero DPSM because they didn't consider the SRAs as suitable deer habitat.

Alsheimer was one of those experts that said mixed farmland and woodlots can support 35-40 DPSM and based on the harvest data he cited ,he was managing his property at 32 doe PSM and recommended that other QDM properties should be managed at 29 doe PSM.

Bluebird, you can knock alt off that list right off the bat. He has no credibility. Everyone knows he was nothing more than Audubons "back door man".

I also find it funny Btbowhunter, that you "knock" Alsheimer by insinuating he doesnt belong on bluebirds "expert" list,even though heis a noted well known lifelong reasearcher of the whitetailed deer, yet you are quick to support every word from a "Pa game warden" as the gospel and final word on deer management and biology.

To each his own.

Wrong again. That statement was referring to New York. You thenj took it upon yourself to apply it to all of Pennsylvania. While some parts of New York and Pennsylvania may be similar, thats a far cry from the statement you claimed.

Cornelius
You really need some help with your reading comprehension. The as posted title by your twin brotherBluebird was "witch doctors should hunters beleive" I merely pointed out Charlie Alsheimer is not a biologist further proving that Bluebird makes up his own "facts" as he goes along. In this case, it was convenient for him to use a partial statement by Charles Alsheimer, out of context again I might add. Since it was convenient to his thread, Bluebird declared him to be a doctor too therefore insinuating that he is a wildlife biologist.

The only thing I said about CH directly was that he is well respected in his field.

Maybe you should try to actually read a post before you comment. If you still have trouble, maybe you should have someone read it to you and explain it.