RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

No one is claiming that there isn't a general nation wide decline in license sales. What we are saying is that the rate of decline in PA has been accelerated during the last 5 years due to the dramatic decrease in the deer herd and you have provided nothing to refute that claim.

From 2002 to 2005 license sales declined by 71 ,000 including junior license sales. During the same period over 100,000 junior licenses were sold each year. How does that equate to a replacement rate of .69?

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

Oh, OK I now realize that I'm talking to the Aplha hunter
I'm so glad you cleared that up



Survey says.... WRONG!!!!

Surveys says.... WRONG!!! It isdenial to refuse to accept that the problem is much bigger than simply a few less deer in our one little state. You claim to know a lot about "a dozen or more states" but the content of your posts betrays your claims


Funny how you provided a link for only half of what you claim (the PGC numbers)

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

same old same old Bluebird. Assembling small bits of truth to assemble a lie. Do you work for the Obama campaign?

First you take a different slice out of the years involved and then you compare the wrong numbers to one another. Your statement (modified only by my changing the color) does not include data on how many adults quit versus adults starting nor doesit equally compare theadults quitting/youths starting like the NSSF study does.

I did make a small error though. .69 is the national average. .62 is Pa's average.

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/digestpdfs/2006/annual/wildlife_families.pdf

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

Cornelius,
Since you haven't bothered to support your claims as to what the USFWS numbers are I did my own search. I haven't found anything to support your claim but I did find this report that is right smack in the middle of our new deer management era

Declines as high as 15% and increases as high as 8%Total natioanl average is a decline of 1.4%. Pa decline at 1.2% putting PA better than the national average by .2%Where is YOUR supporting information???

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

There was no lie in my post and you obviously don't know what you are talking about since you can't explain why 100,000 junior hunters each year can't replace the loss of 71,000 total hunters over 4 years.

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

Smoke and mirrors again. Your question, in that context makes no sense. One cant assume that junior hunters are the only new hunters nor can you compare just those two numbers to ask your question. Provide the link to the source of your numbers and perhaps I can help you understand something.

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

Just because you can't comprehend it ,doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. If the number of junior hunters equals or exceeds the total number of hunters lost during the perior, then any new additional adult hunters would offset the loss even more.

You want to argue about the decline in license sales ,but you don't even know how to access the PA license sales data. Now that's hoot!!!

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

I AGREE ALSO.
huntingpa.forum is no where near as honest and open minded as huntingnet site here.

huntingpa.site is run and controlled by PGC/DCNR cronies ,just my opinion.

anyone that does not walk the talk on huntingpa. site, is removed.

most know this,i would bet the pgc/dcnr and other backers of the HR program are funding huntingpa. with their donations.:eek:

this is why most i know dont go on there anymore,they like here the best.

even rsb has to come over here to try to influence people here, he got away with it over at huntingpa but i bet most can see where he is coming from most of time.he cant CONTROL things here but maybe he will try to drag some others over to help him try to CONVINCE all of us that lack of deer is do to HABITAT,not HR program.


at times, respectfully,he is KNOTHEAD.:D



folks, you will for most part hear TRUTH over here but not over on the huntigpa site.
TRUTH will get you removed or banned.;)

IS HUNTINGNET a big improvement over HUNTINGPA.

you bet it is ;)

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

You want me to explain this statement made by you:

What you posted makes no sense. we all know we have declining numbers but you expect me to explain to you why 100,000 huntesr dont replace 71,000. Well if those were accurate and complete figures, that would have been a positive recruitment of around +50%. Since that's obviously not the case, your question makes no sense given the "facts" you presented

As for your other statement:

Read it again spanky. I have the PGC website data. Cornelius is citing the USFWS and has provided no link. Thats what I asked him to produce and he hasn't done that. You twist the facts and he makes em up as he goes

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

UPDATE!!!! All deer aren't dead, I've seen 3 !!!

Have hunted now 48 hrs in Pa andmy deer count has risen from 1 doe to 3 doe, actually 1 adult doe and 2 yearling doe.

4 Different Mountains, 2 different food plots, 2 bedding areas (at least they used to be "in the past"), and 2 different water sources. Stalk hunted, still hunted, carried my climber countless miles and alsopushed thickets for my fiance. And 3 deer is the result????? Great! At this rate in another 144 hours I might be up to a dozen deer.

Thank You Game Commission!

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

"Surveys says.... WRONG!!! It isdenial to refuse to accept that the problem is much bigger than simply a few less deer in our one little state."

Our management agency manages one state. Any problems elsewhere mayvary. They dont have our deer sham andmost dont have double the national average declines.

"You claim to know a lot about "a dozen or more states" but the content of your posts betrays your claims "

And your poor attempts to decieve and use "nothing" as proof of anything belies your knowledge of alot of things and your blind noncaring about anything else, support of pgc.

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

"Oh, OK I now realize that I'm talking to the Aplha hunter"

So now you know. No biggie. Nothing Im ashamed of. Im a skilled hunter and not some lout. Cant seem to win with the irrational pgc supporters. Anything said about anything is always the wrong thing. Even when they themselves havent been right about anything to date.;)

"I haven't found anything to support your claim but I did find this report that is right smack in the middle of our new deer management era"

Ha ha ha. You sound like the game commission spokesperson. (LOL) Cherry picked one year, when noone said ANYTHING about that one year! (LOL) And that was just to show things were "bad" that year but not "terrible"... Well when you compare 2001-2006, we are declining at over twice the national average. And 2004.....1953 or 1972 aint gonna change the fact that the deer plan runs concurrent with that decline.;)

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

For the third time, true only in your mind. You have failed so far to back that statement up

As I said, NO proof from you whatsoever

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

Oh, Im sorry, I neglected that. Im not used to basicallybeing called a liar.

Then again, at times, I like to make you ask several times just to give you hope...Before I yank it away. (LOL);)

See page 19. Table 9. If you are confused about anything else, I'll be happy to get you on the right track once again.


http://library.fws.gov/nat_survey2006.pdf

I have also already given you the pgc link to their license sales, so you outta be able to compare our 10% decline to the estimated 4% decline stated on the above link for the nation.

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

Talk about cherry picking! A quick look at Table 10 on the next page of the same reportshows that over a ten year period puts Pa right back close to the national average.Looks like somethings going on in the other states as well after all!Of course I'd expect you to overlook that! Have you been getting lessons from Blueburd?

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

10 years ago we had no farce deer program. Thats why its not "cherry picking" The years of 2001-2006 are. They are also one "compilation" of years compared nationwide by usfws.

Although you chose to pic the 10 yr scene, that is far from the most applicable, it still shows Pa BELOW the national average for that time period. Pa with 15% decline compared to the nation at 10. And that is a cherry picked best case scenario that doesnt even apply. In the real world most accurate assessment 10% from 01 to 06 is over double 4% for the nation... And its likely to grow the longer pgc shuns responsible change.

Didnt expect an apology or an "Im wrong" from you. Knew it would never happen. But I would at least suggest a graceful changing of the subject.:D

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

one thing for sure,with my and othersobservations in WMU2G in FIELD and the info you all have from BOOKS, i betPGC/DCNR cant even come close to what they have done and wont admit;).

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

I've no intention of apologizing orsaying I was wrong either. Iwill concede thatyour repeating the USFWS was accurate in it's context.But then again, so was mine.

My point would be that it's all relative to when the "snapshot" is taken. I believe I already agreed that some hunters, (most probably the Monday one day warriors) have quit due to seeing less deer. That doesnt change the fact that our numbers are dropping at an alarming rate all across the country or that other states have people just as vocal as you making similar doomsayer predictions. As a matter of fact, folks like you have been warning of impending doom here in Pa for quite a long time. The USP was formed quite a long time ago. I beleive t was in the 80's when bonus tags first came out and they have been screaming that we were going to kill all the deer since way back then. Even back in the 70's when I started hunting, i remember hearing a few guys at the gun club crying that killing all these does was going to ruin hunting in PA.

Your tunnell vision citing the deer program as the sole reasonfor declining license sales is still grossly inaccurate. Your claim thatthevast majority of Pa hunters is anywhere near as unhappy with things as you seem to be is also grossly inaccurate and the only surveys regarding hunter satisfaction that are avaialable tell a story that is quite different.

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

"My point would be that it's all relative to when the "snapshot" is taken. I believe I already agreed that some hunters, (most probably the Monday one day warriors) have quit due to seeing less deer."

I agree. But to the sport of hunting those people are just as important as you, I or any other more than casual hunter. Their money supports the wildlife management just the same, and their voice carries just as muchweightagainst anti-hunting (or antideer) interests, andother legislative issues. If were willing to "do without" all those that are less than die-hards, we'd most likely have even far fewer hunters than we do currently. I dont think that to be a "good" thing.

"That doesnt change the fact that our numbers are dropping at an alarming rate all across the country "

Yeah, well we need to worry less about Timbuktu and worry more about our state. We shouldnt heap even more hunter unfriendly agendas upon our plate as we have, compounding the problem and refuse to address it.

"or that other states have people just as vocal as you making similar doomsayer predictions."

No placein this nation has as much "fighting" going on over itshunting... NO WHERE. Nor even close. Nor is there as much distrust, Nor is there an attempt to cling to a proven miserably failed deer program.

"As a matter of fact, folks like you have been warning of impending doom here in Pa for quite a long time."

And the same could be said of the "anti-deer" factions. Predictions made MANY decades ago that were absolutely rediculous. Predicting doom far greater than anyone else has predicted. Even with far far fewer deer. Shortly after the herd was rebuilt, the predictions began! (LOL)[:'(] Then there were others shortly thereafter like Latham etc. Just as extreme as many today. Previously they were ignored and tossed off the game commission. Today they run the game commission. And even though the predictions STILL never came to pass from long long ago, here we are.

The USP was formed quite a long time ago. I beleive t was in the 80's when bonus tags first came out and they have been screaming that we were going to kill all the deer since way back then. Even back in the 70's when I started hunting, i remember hearing a few guys at the gun club crying that killing all these does was going to ruin hunting in PA. "

So? They have a right to their opinion...Same as you or I. Just because they may disagree with you and at times me, doesnt make their opinions any less worthy of consideration. They too buy licenses and have vested interest. This is just one example of a time when they are nearly 100% correct in their stance. i dont necessarily support things like ending doe season etc. But They do see a real problem that most of us see quite clearly. I think there are simple solutions. Reasonable doe allocations. Pgc just isnt willing to be reasonable where hunters are concerned.

"Your tunnell vision citing the deer program as the sole reasonfor declining license sales is still grossly inaccurate."

I didnt say that. Its a significant, if not THEE MOST significant factor. And also the easiest to address, which is why its pure idiocy for pgc to completely ignore the issue and still act concerned over the hunter losses and cry poor-mouth to boot. HOw many hunters are they gonna accept being run off, just for the rest of us to make up the difference monetarily? And Im not talking individually, Im talking the total cumulatively. We would get SOOO much more with more of these hunters we're losing, plus by fixing the deer situation, which in turn would get them the license fee increase as well.

"Your claim thatthevast majority of Pa hunters is anywhere near as unhappy with things as you seem to be is also grossly inaccurate "

Not really. Im not as "unhappy" as most. Even PGc basically admits most are not tickled with the reduction but use the usual excuses to ignore the discontent in the name of "the greater good"....and for the good of society etc... Even though society doesnt equate to a small portion of timber industry and even smaller number of eco-extremists.

"and the only surveys regarding hunter satisfaction that are avaialable tell a story that is quite different."

Yeah. Ask people like pfsc! (LOL) (and conservationists!)....The very antideereco-extremists that are half of our problems to beginwith these days! (LOL) Only polls ive seen by pgc, where asked to selective individuals and they were only in regard to certain aspects like; do you approve of ar... Not how do you feel overall... Or how do you feel about hr.;) They dont need to ask either. I think you know that as well as I do.;)

Pgc quit caring about hunters and the sport some time ago. When they started seating eco-extremist oriented and timber interest driven boc members. Pallone quickly comes to minds as a prime example.

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

This quote is from a 2005 PGN article.
That certainly has changed since the new deer plan was implemented.

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

LOL The deer plan was implemented well before that article so you just contradicted yourself.

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

You don't realize how true that is. When I told people what I had seen, they asked "where at?". I sat on the first day of muzzleloader and heard a total of3 shots from 5:30 AM to 10:30 AM and then 2 shots from 3 PM till dark. I hunt in a valley where the sound of a door slamming echoes, yet I heard so little shooting???? A friend (who hasn't seen anything yet this season) and myself went scouting this past Sunday. We walked at least 5 1/2miles and found 4 rubs and 3 scrapes. The sad thing is this has been the most productive scouting effort since early August.

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

Actually ,as usual ,I get the last laugh. Although the plan was implemented in 2000 ,initially it resulted in record harvests keeping many hunters happy. It wasn't until 2004 that harvests began to crash and hunters felt the effect of HR. In 2005 the PGC was satisfied because we still had 1.013M hunters in 2004. After 2004 many hunters expressed their discussed with the plan by quitting and by 2007 license sales had decreased to 924K and then the PGC expressed concern about declining license sales.

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

Simply not true

That theory would be plausible if not for the fact that the guysbitching now are the very ones thatwho cried wolf from day one

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

You have absolutely nothing to support that claim but your very biased opinion and it doesn't explain the decline in junior license sales.

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

i was out today in clinton county, i saw 5 road hunters and 2 hunting deer in woods for about 12 miles area.

i did see 1 doe along road, road hunter saw me and was afraid to shoot.

i was going to blow my truck horn:D

i did see 3 grouse,1 in road and 2 in woods hunting.

yet, in my yard last night i had 3 bucks, 3 doe and 2 fawns,2 fox.


i may send my picture to btb so he can put the buck fight on here for us, that spike buck was kicking that 7 points butt:D

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

junior lic holders here in my area of clinton ,i feel are up from a few years ago.

i see very few in woods hunting,i saw about 6 last year yet i know there are at least 50 in my area that got lic.

i see dads in woods riding around or walking .very few kids in woods.:eek:

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

I have been out since my last post and have seen a doelast night and tonight as well. Both times it was at dark and both of these places were different areas that I hadn't hunted yet this season. I feel better now that I have seen something but seeing these few deer after the hours I spent and miles I walked scouting is ridiculous. Oh well, I had 205 hours in the woods last season before I shot a 120" 8 pointer, looks like I have an even longer season ahead of me this year. I saw alot more buck and doe last year and this year I have yet to see a buck but have found a few scrapes and alot of rubs in one "specific" area.

I'd like to see that video. I watched a drop tine spike buck beat up on a few buck in Ohio this year. He wouldn't face them head on but as soon as they turned he jab them in the side or in the tail. I am curious to see how his rack develops over the next 3 years. Might have to put him on the wall when he grows up.

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

Let me address this post first..........;)

Decline in junior license sales are due in a large part to the following.....
1. Growing anti-hunting sentiment in public, schools, etc.
2. Computers
3. Video games
4. Parents having to work longer to make ends meet

I have only just now found this thread, and I have NOT read very many posts, but a few that I did read, surely jumped out at me......:D

Insurance companies are permitted to assign risk potential for auto/deer collisions per geographic location in alignment with data gathered from previous history of said accidents in a given geographical area.

In other words......insurance companies win in the long run from us running into deer. There is no conspiracy here.

Is there an overharvest of deer in certain areas of the state? IMO, there probably is. There are not enough management units to do the job correctly. Unfortunately, our own ranks cried like little girls and ran the best guy we had out of Dodge before he could get everything he wanted in the management of our deer herd.

Instant gratification is the name of the game today. Every hunter wantsa perfectly balanced herd, that is HUGE enough to take a buck and a doe in a matter of minutes. It just doesn`t work that way.

I can remember hunting in northern PA at our family camp in the very early 70`s........it was nothing to see 30-100 deer per day. If I added up the total amount of antler on every buck sighted, I could probably come up with 50 inchs of bone. Average body weight was probably 80 pounds.

Yep, the PGC needs changes.......they need to move forward with Alts plans, which includes more and smaller management areas.

Get antlerless season OUT of regular buck season too.



Deer check stations..........there are others among us who hunt many states per year too, and as one of those people, I have talked to wardens in many states about deer management issues.

Check stations seem to be no more accurate than our report card method.

The example was given regarding Illinois, and going to phone in system. I have seen no changes there........some folks just do not report their deer kills, regardless of reporting mehtod.

Being a lifelong resident of PA, I feel we have 2 problems here that severely hamper our ability to have the herd that PA is capable of producing..........

1. Sheer number of hunters
2. Rampant poaching, and the apathy that surrounds it.

See a poacher.....turn him in. I don`t care if it is your brother or father. And if he needs to feed his family, he should sell his weapon, put that money in the gas tank, and go find a job instead of spending time in the field.

Okay, I will read some posts now.......;)

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

i am trying to get someone to steer me thru how to put my sd card pictures on here,if anyone can help me do it, please pm me .thanks

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

PM sent........:)

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

Junior license sales were increasing until 2004.
It wasn't that way in the past and it's not that way today. The vast majority of the hunters know that only 15-20% of buck hunters kill a buck each year.

Alt was not qualified to manage the herd in PA since he didn't even know the B/D ratio or the cause of late breeding. He was just a figure head and a pitchman for the push to reduce the herd.

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

I apologize.......coming into this thread late, and not reading many posts, I did not realize you were a PR man for unified?[:o]

I did not know that I was dealing with an agenda here.......but it is obvious from your brief reply to my post that no intelligent discourse can be had on the subject.

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

The only limit on intelligent discourse is your attitude. Apparently anyone that disagrees with you is a PR guy for the USP

BTW, you were right about insurance companies, check stations and the limiting factor of having a large number of hunters. There is simply no way to manage the herd to get significant numbers of 3.5 and 4.5 buck with over 900K hunters.

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

i am life member of USP.
i grew up with vice president don clemmer of tamarack.

i agree with most of what they do.

i did not agree with their SUNDAY HUNTING that they want bigtime.

i do agree with their ONE DEER AND YOUR DONE IDEA in wmu2g.

i also agree on only kid shooting a doe in WMU2G,not adults.

i disagree with them on mentoured youth thing,i believe its only way for most adults to get another deer illegally and not need a tag.

i disagree with the AR thing for kids, i feel it should be 3 points for all because the BROWN ITS DOWN WITH KIDS TAG HUNTERS are shooting at ANY deer that is seen.

so,i dont like everything they do.

heck, we all quit our local sportsmans club because they are working with DCNR,they turned our club into a ENVIRONMENTAL CLUB.[:@]

the president of club says there are LOTS of deer in clinton county,he is former DCNR employee.:D:D:D:D


so,there you have it.

I CAN ONLY SAY THIS, IF YOU WANT TO HEAR TRUTH OF WHAT IS HAPPENING IN CLINTON/POTTER/CAMERON COUNTYS,you only need to ask me,no USP/DCNR/PGC /DCNR SPORTSMAN CLUBS/OR RSB;)will ever try to buy ole sproul off.

I CANT BE BOUGHT OFF;)

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

I think he may have been paying attention when this guy said..."LOOK INTO MY EYES! YOU'RE GETTING VERY VERY SLEEEEEEPY!" :D

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

i liked the AR rule at meeting i attended with alt.
i did not like it when i saw the sportsman club locally with 3 little kids with sad eyes say,

WE NEED TO KILL LITTLE BUCKS, THEY LOOKED AT COMMISSIONERS WITH BIG SAD EYES.

there went program.fill the freezer daddy made out in this rule, for sure

if you want bucks to mature, let them live awhile.

also alt said,DONT SHOOT THE FAWNS.

hunters did...so, unless they listen and stop the kids shooting small bucks,the AR is not going to work very good,i would say about 30% working.

again, i see program failing because the hunters are not letting their kids shoot the little bucks.what is kid learning when dad/cousin/uncle/friends shoot the little bucks and call for tags or have kid come tag it.

some are going by rules and they are sportsman raising their kids right waybut very few on STATEFORESTLAND are going by rules..[:@]

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

Sproul,

we've gone round and round over this issue and although I agree that the potential exists for abuse, I really think you're blowing it way out of proportion.

I do beleive that you beleive it's going on and I'm trying to give you a fair chance to convince me and everyone else here that the problem is as big as you say it is. Your description of things you've experienced indicate that you have vivid powers recollection so this request should be easy for you.

Tell us the details of the situations where you have DIRECT knowledge of a dad using the kids tag on a sub AR deer. When, where, who, rack size of the buck involved and was it reported and did the WCO pursue it. What were the results with the WCO? Were the parties prosecuted?

For now, lets just hear the stories where you have some personal knowledge. I'm asling you to leave out the barroom stories that we all hear andlimit it to what you would be willing to testify to if called upon to do so.

I'll promise to do my best to read it all with an open mind....I invite you to convince me!

Fair enough?

RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
 

i talked to WCO last week and asked him to set up the robo deer again.
i said they are shooting out windows at 530 am to 8am .
do you know they shoot deer at 530 without spotlight?

they use snow,deer stick out, yes, they are not worried about if it has horns or not.

i also told him i feel the poachers are not shooting deer in woods now, they are doing it next to homes and privateland do to lack of deer in woods,times are around 10to 12pm.

i also ASKED him to stop hunters and tell them you have reports of the adults shooting spikes etc then having the junior hunters tag itwhile driving the deer,i believe most of violations are hunters in crews driving deer.

maybe you did not read to close,did i not say they caught a POACHER in hyner,pa with spotlight .sadly, they
could not get him for shooting a deer but we know he got a huge 5 point before.


only thing you are right on is, I HAVE NOT SEEN IT HAPPEN ,only what i FEEL is happening from info i hear.

do you know some carry hacksaws to cut deer horns off if not 3 point to side,yes, THAT WAS REPORTED TO WCO, NOT BY ME BUT BY A PERSON WHO SAW IT.

soooooooooooo,what else do you want me to do, stand on my head.:eek: