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RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
If thats your view of what hunting is all about, may I suggest that you consider a high fence preserve? You will have sucesful hunts (by your definition) and you wouldn't have to give the PGC a dime. Perhaps if you talk to a local farmer, you could buy a cow or pig from him and shoot it yourself and have it butchered and consider yourself successful.
Your post also makes it easier for the rest of us to understand why you enjoy targeting button bucks. They are most certainly the easiest wild deer to kill and as you've agreed, you are all about the kill. |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
Your post also makes it easier for the rest of us to understand why you enjoy targeting button bucks. They are most certainly the easiest wild deer to kill and as you've agreed, you are all about the kill. We haven't killed a BB since 2001,even though we hunted archery and rifle every year. That's because we never saw 3 BB in a group so we could pick out the third one.:) |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
ORIGINAL: BTBowhunter Not much inline pressure in our part of 2F Just spent 2 1/2 days in and around ANF territory in 2F and saw three seniors with high powers but no inline guys except our group of 4. We have one with a peg leg and one with a bad heart so we did short hop drives along easy level areas near the roads and didn't run into a single othermuzzy hunter. We put out deer on half the drives but two of the shot opportunities were bucks and two more shot opportunities weren't taken because the foliage made it tough to be certain that those deer weren't packing horns too. A good hunt, no kills but plenty of sightingsand plenty of signin an area thats supposed to have no deer if you listen to the crowd at the local tavern. The best buck we saw was an 8 point that probably went 105"-110" The wind noise allowed me to walk up to within 15 yards of him while he fed. i was out FOX hunting in my yard last night,man, those FOX do come into a call, i am hooked now on FOX hunting.season opened yesterday . as for why i saw more hunters this year with in-lines with kids in WMU2Gis this. i happened to hunt with a school teacher friend from lock haven high school. he said he had more kids off school thursday/friday this week vrs last year,do too the early oct doe hunting. the reason is he said,THEY STOPPED THE DOE HUNTING IN WMU2G FOR FIRST WEEK OF DEER,so kids wanted their DEER JERKY:eek:and were going to get it early.:eek: that is why the number of vehicles i saw road hunting was triple of what i saw last year grouse hunting.;) i bet i stopped over 20 while hunting grouse or they stopped to ask me where are doe ?:eek:i hunt along roads in culverts .so, i get to OBSERVE and TALK to a lot of hunters.;) in almost every vehicle the rifles/in-lines were at ready in front seat. MANY said this is how they kill their GROUSE/SQUIRREALS.:eek: remember i said,TO kill today in WMU2G ,you have to cover territory.:eek: the hunters are not stupid, they are good at killing and are not wasting their time walking around NOT SEEING ANYTHING.like SPROULE:D i happen to interview a hunter that was at camp in clinton county for a WEEK of doe hunting. he said,SPROUL I SAW 3 DOE FOR 6 DAYS OF DOE HUNTING in the best area WHILE SITTING IN WOODS DAILY. he moves around too,does not hit same spot as I DO each year. this is first year,so far,that SPROULE has not seen a BUCK.:( NOT A ACORN ALSO.:( a DCNR friend,yes, i have some friends in DCNR but they have grit.;) he told me he is seeing very few large racks this year ,compared to last 2 years. he said 2 years ago, big racks but very few this year in wmu2g,clinton/potter/cameron. only people i feel are getting a deer ,is the road hunters that are doing it from 6 am to dark daily, they are really working hard to get a doe.[:@] a friend told me he has 2 doe left in his hunting territory,yet he said he had PICTURES on his trailcamof 5 different hunters in that area with IN-LIUNES trying to kill those last 2 doe. he said he cant understand why hunters will hunt until all doe are gone. I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO FIGURE THAT OUT ALSO AND ITS SIMPLE.;) meat/filling cost of tag is what is important now. ALSO, WE DID CATCH A POACHER,but only could get him for spotlighting after hrs.did you notice that most hunters are afraid to turn in a POACHER as they could burn your home down:)yes, i get those comments also. folks, we got to start taking their guns away when this happens and vehicle too. lets get active and get our reps to get togher, new updates are a little tougher but not enough.[:@] if INFO i am getting is true,POACHING is happening do to meat prices.[:@] so, there it is.this ,so far, is WORST year i have had hunting in WMU2G:( |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
Hey Sproul,
I managed to get my first Grey Fox with the bow the other night. If I wasn't so computer illiterate I would be able to figure out how to upload it here.Iwant to remove my name from the tag and I will try to upload it. |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
http://uploadpicz.com/zman/4SCHD3F.jpg
Ok, I think this worked. I've been hunting coyotes for the past year so far I haven't had much success but thisfox came running to the rabbit squeal just before dark. 25 yd shot as he was moving to get downwind of me. This is the 3rd one I've seen this year already. Ourkids tried to save a small bunny from the cat this summer, it didn't work of course. He is at the freeze drier's nowso he and the fox will be mounted together. If the cat keeps killing stuff and leaving it on the porch hemay be next.  |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
I've been trading e-mails with someone who is allowing us to hunt on a property in northern Clinton County (2G). This particular area apparently has a decent population of deer (more than the 10+- we are used to there). Unfortunately someone illegally killed a large buck there recently, cut off the head, and left the body. I'm sure a lot more are illegally killed in 2G, as it has a low human population. We used to hear a lot of shooting on Sunday night before the buck season opener when there was a lot of deer there.
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RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
ORIGINAL: sproulman ORIGINAL: BTBowhunter Not much inline pressure in our part of 2F Just spent 2 1/2 days in and around ANF territory in 2F and saw three seniors with high powers but no inline guys except our group of 4. We have one with a peg leg and one with a bad heart so we did short hop drives along easy level areas near the roads and didn't run into a single othermuzzy hunter. We put out deer on half the drives but two of the shot opportunities were bucks and two more shot opportunities weren't taken because the foliage made it tough to be certain that those deer weren't packing horns too. A good hunt, no kills but plenty of sightingsand plenty of signin an area thats supposed to have no deer if you listen to the crowd at the local tavern. The best buck we saw was an 8 point that probably went 105"-110" The wind noise allowed me to walk up to within 15 yards of him while he fed. i was out FOX hunting in my yard last night,man, those FOX do come into a call, i am hooked now on FOX hunting.season opened yesterday . as for why i saw more hunters this year with in-lines with kids in WMU2Gis this. i happened to hunt with a school teacher friend from lock haven high school. he said he had more kids off school thursday/friday this week vrs last year,do too the early oct doe hunting. the reason is he said,THEY STOPPED THE DOE HUNTING IN WMU2G FOR FIRST WEEK OF DEER,so kids wanted their DEER JERKY:eek:and were going to get it early.:eek: that is why the number of vehicles i saw road hunting was triple of what i saw last year grouse hunting.;) i bet i stopped over 20 while hunting grouse or they stopped to ask me where are doe ?:eek:i hunt along roads in culverts .so, i get to OBSERVE and TALK to a lot of hunters.;) in almost every vehicle the rifles/in-lines were at ready in front seat. MANY said this is how they kill their GROUSE/SQUIRREALS.:eek: remember i said,TO kill today in WMU2G ,you have to cover territory.:eek: the hunters are not stupid, they are good at killing and are not wasting their time walking around NOT SEEING ANYTHING.like SPROULE:D i happen to interview a hunter that was at camp in clinton county for a WEEK of doe hunting. he said,SPROUL I SAW 3 DOE FOR 6 DAYS OF DOE HUNTING in the best area WHILE SITTING IN WOODS DAILY. he moves around too,does not hit same spot as I DO each year. this is first year,so far,that SPROULE has not seen a BUCK.:( NOT A ACORN ALSO.:( a DCNR friend,yes, i have some friends in DCNR but they have grit.;) he told me he is seeing very few large racks this year ,compared to last 2 years. he said 2 years ago, big racks but very few this year in wmu2g,clinton/potter/cameron. only people i feel are getting a deer ,is the road hunters that are doing it from 6 am to dark daily, they are really working hard to get a doe.[:@] a friend told me he has 2 doe left in his hunting territory,yet he said he had PICTURES on his trailcamof 5 different hunters in that area with IN-LIUNES trying to kill those last 2 doe. he said he cant understand why hunters will hunt until all doe are gone. I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO FIGURE THAT OUT ALSO AND ITS SIMPLE.;) meat/filling cost of tag is what is important now. ALSO, WE DID CATCH A POACHER,but only could get him for spotlighting after hrs.did you notice that most hunters are afraid to turn in a POACHER as they could burn your home down:)yes, i get those comments also. folks, we got to start taking their guns away when this happens and vehicle too. lets get active and get our reps to get togher, new updates are a little tougher but not enough.[:@] if INFO i am getting is true,POACHING is happening do to meat prices.[:@] so, there it is.this ,so far, is WORST year i have had hunting in WMU2G:( I have some bad news for ole Sproule. Unit 2G has one less doe then it had a week ago. I had a couple of DMAP permits so on Tuesday morning, my day off, I headed out to a spot on a 2G DMAP property. I had a stand of oaks in mind that I wanted to hike into and see if there were any deer feeding in them. I was less then half way to the oaks and less then a fifteen minutes from my vehicle when I spotted two deer feeding along toward some think laurel. The front one was a large adult doe that made the mistake of walking into an opening about 60 yards away. When I removed her jawbone it turned out that she was a 3 ½ year old. I went out the next evening, as soon as I got off duty at 5:00. That hunt was in unit 2F though. It took me an hour and five minutes to harvest that adult DMAP doe there and the first half hour of that time was the bicycle trip in to where I actually wanted to hunt. That doe was 4 ½ years old. Your right about the poaching problems though, it does seem to be worse this year then I have seen in a while. What I am seeing though are guys that can’t seem to resist the temptation of the nice bucks they are seeing. Dick Bodenhorn |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
Thats doubtful Rsb. Especially since there are so many fewer.
Id imagine the slobs are just poaching them because there are so few and they dont want to compete with all the other hunters in season. Same reason some idiot put poison out down here on gamelands 111 to kill coyotes, afraid theyd get some of the few deer left. It was after Christmas and apparently they didnt expect any hunters with dogs. Thats just what happened. A guys two bird dogs got into it, his dogs were poisoned when they ate the"bait"and it made the paper. No good excuse for that, or the poaching, butjust a few Pgc inducedmaleffects of the extreme deer program. "Your right about the poaching problems though, it does seem to be worse this year then I have seen in a while." Maybe a new Wco is needed that can actually curtail these crimes against our resources instead of having them increasing out of control in the area spoken of? Perhaps what should be "common sense" would be stricter wco performance evaluations?;) |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
ORIGINAL: Cornelius08 Thats doubtful Rsb. Especially since there are so many fewer. Id imagine the slobs are just poaching them because there are so few and they dont want to compete with all the other hunters in season. Same reason some idiot put poison out down here on gamelands 111 to kill coyotes, afraid theyd get some of the few deer left. It was after Christmas and apparently they didnt expect any hunters with dogs. Thats just what happened. A guys two bird dogs got into it, his dogs were poisoned when they ate the"bait"and it made the paper. No good excuse for that, or the poaching, butjust a few Pgc inducedmaleffects of the extreme deer program. "Your right about the poaching problems though, it does seem to be worse this year then I have seen in a while." Maybe a new Wco is needed that can actually curtail these crimes against our resources instead of having them increasing out of control in the area spoken of? Perhaps what should be "common sense" would be stricter wco performance evaluations?;) And had this happened to my dogs his very well being would be questionable. And making personal attacks against a fellow hunter whom you don't happen to agree with shows nothing more than an uneducated, inability to debate an issue on its merits. I have no good words for the P.G.C. or its deer program but personal attacks do no more than devalue your argument. You should think of yourselves as better than that.:eek: |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
Yes no sense in attacking Bodenhorn. He does his job, as evidenced by the WCO Reports in the PON.
I've been noticing, on all the boards I frequent but one, where the anti-PGC folks are pretty much kept in check through banning, that hunter dissatisfaction seems to be erupting to a higher level this year. Perhaps the personal attacks are just an indicator as to the degree of frustration some folks are feeling towards this deer program. |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
5miler, I agree with all.
"Any one that is mentally challenged enough to try to poison coyotes in order to save deer should be banned from ever setting foot on any game lands and never receive a hunting license in any state." And had this happened to my dogs his very well being would be questionable." And I also agree withthis completely up till this: "And making personal attacks against a fellow hunter whom you don't happen to agree with shows nothing more than an uneducated, inability to debate an issue on its merits. I have no good words for the P.G.C. or its deer program but personal attacks do no more than devalue your argument." Uneducated inability to debate an issue on its merits?? You mean like people attempting to stretch anothers statement to be something it wasnt in an attempt to discredit?? Yeah. I see your point. I guess you just wanted to provide us with a firsthand example.:D Where were the "personal attacks", aside from the one you just levied against me....?I simply stated what SHOULD be obvious. IF poaching is at an all time high in awmu, AS RSB HIMSELF POINTED OUT...thenperhaps something moreneeds be done there. Maybe we should just ignore it, like we do our deer plan results? I see nothing wrong with desiring to see performance evaluations conducted and addressing increases in poaching on a wmu by wmu basis.Same goes for every other wco in the state. Im sure most would pass with flying colors. I dont believe all would. RSB? Dont know or care. Would guess thathe would, since From all Ive read or heard, he is MUCH better at law enforcement than deer management debate! ;):D |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
You mean like people attempting to stretch anothers statement to be something it wasnt in an attempt to discredit?? I'm a moderator on another board. I was quite surprised by a PM I received from another mod on another board a few hours ago. Sneaky. They are very very sneaky. I know that B*** G*****/D**** contacted us way back when and tried to get us to ban anyone who disagreed and I refused to do it. So now I guess he badmouths us any chance he gets. I am really not to concerned. It is a shame that people can't respect each side of the argument and amazing how all the people that come out of the woodwork and love to give me advice on how successful my site will be if I ban the people that THEY don't like. |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
Thats doubtful Rsb. Especially since there are so many fewer. I have rarely had much trouble finding deer when many others were complaining. It has been that way for over forty years. Over my entire hunting career other hunters have been spending their time complaining about no deer.I insteadhave spent my time learning about deer, what they eat, when they eat, where they bed and where and when they are most likely to be moving. While other are sitting around complaining I am most likely either in the field working and learning. Then when the season is in and I have the tags, and the time when not at work,to hunt I spend my time hunting instead of complaining. I agree that I am seeing far fewer deer then there used to be, but I am still seeing plenty of deer in ALL of the places where anyone that knows much of anything about deer would expect to find deer. The difference is that now deer don’t have to spend nearly all of their time competing with way to many deer to find enough food to stay alive. Now deer can behave as deer were intended by living in the best habitat areas and only being up walking around feeding during short duration periods. Maybe a new Wco is needed that can actually curtail these crimes against our resources instead of having them increasing out of control in the area spoken of? Perhaps what should be "common sense" would be stricter wco performance evaluations? Boy talk about a cheap shot! I have spent over thirty-one years protecting the resources and sport of hunting for thankless people like you. People that don’t have even the slightest clue about most of the things they think they know so much about. I put my life on the line to save a few deer, turkeys and other wildlife so some jackass that spends all of their time bad mouthing the Game Commission and it’s Officers can go out and have a reasonable change of success even though most of them don’t deserve success because they haven’t put any honest effort into learning how to be successful. We arrest the poachers when we encounter them, and I have arrested a lot of them over my career. What have you done for the benefit of the resources or the future of hunting? I dare say that you and your ilk have done far more harm to the sport of hunting and the future of our resources then even the poachers can do. The poachers hurt the honest hunters but the clueless people that undermine sound scientific wildlife management, and the funding needed to maintain such programs, do irrepairable damage that lasts for decades and maybe even centuries. R.S. Bodenhorn |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
I dare say that you and your ilk have done far more harm to the sport of hunting and the future of our resources then even the poachers can do. 1. ARs would double or triple the number of 8 pt. bucks. 2. Buck harvests would return to normal after the first year of ARs. 3. HR and ARs would increase breeding rates and recruitment and offset the loss of adult doe. 4. The breeding window would decrease as a result of ARs . 5. The decrease in the breeding window would overwhelm predators resulting in better recruitment. 6. Dominant breeding of older bucks would improve the gene pool resulting in bigger 2.5+ buck. None of the above claims have been shown to be true and as a result the credibility of the PGC is at an all time low. |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 I dare say that you and your ilk have done far more harm to the sport of hunting and the future of our resources then even the poachers can do. 1. ARs would double or triple the number of 8 pt. bucks. 2. Buck harvests would return to normal after the first year of ARs. 3. HR and ARs would increase breeding rates and recruitment and offset the loss of adult doe. 4. The breeding window would decrease as a result of ARs . 5. The decrease in the breeding window would overwhelm predators resulting in better recruitment. 6. Dominant breeding of older bucks would improve the gene pool resulting in bigger 2.5+ buck. None of the above claims have been shown to be true and as a result the credibility of the PGC is at an all time low. |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
[quote]ORIGINAL: RSB
I agree that I am seeing far fewer deer then there used to be, but I am still seeing plenty of deer in ALL of the places where anyone that knows much of anything about deer would expect to find deer. I do all the same things in Ohio (for instance) and I saw more deer in one day there than I have all season here in Pa. I saw more buck in 2 days than I have total deer in Pa. Your claim that the deer are "behaving as deer are intended" doesn't wash with me. The only way for deer to do what deer do naturally is to take man out of the equation. PAGC programs dictate behaviors and populations so don't claim things are so perfectto statethings are the way they "naturally" should be. Anyone "who knows much of anything" knows better! Please bless me with some insight from your expertise to help me become more successful at seeing all these deer in Pa that I apparently know nothing about. |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
Everybody does not share the same ill thoughts of the PGC as a whole RSB.:)
Heck, I basically stopped deer hunting in PA many years ago, due in large part to the predominant mindset of my fellow PA hunters, and in a small part because of the substandard(age limited) bucks. I have no doubt that the PGC`s plan for our deer herd is not perfect. I do not believe there can be a perfect plan here due to sheer hunter numbers. Couple those numbers with the rampant desire by the rank and file PA deer hunter to kill "his" buck, regardless of age of the deer, and damn the consequences down the road...........nobody has a plan that will work 100% in this state. Then there are the poachers......and the hunters who do not poach, but do not turn in the poachers they know of. |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
Couple those numbers with the rampant desire by the rank and file PA deer hunter to kill "his" buck, regardless of age of the deer, and damn the consequences down the road.... |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
"What’s doubtful? That I could harvest two adult does injust a few hours of hunting on two separate days? "
HUH??? Nothing I said had anything to do with that. The "doubtful because now there are so few" comment wasin reply to your comment of all thepoachers seeing all those "big bucks" we now have and not being able to help themselves!(LOL) Im far from being so impressed that someone killed a deer that Im gonna call 'em a liar!![8D] Has zero bearing on what anyones views of our deer management is or should be. Way to go, I guess.:D Ive been bowhunting for weeks now and couldve probably killed 8 or 10 doe, not to mention 2 barely legal bucks a 7 and 8 point. Not my cups of tea. "Boy talk about a cheap shot! " I know you are "thick skinned" Rsb, and know youve given and recieved far worse in the last several years you've been telling tales on several boards, so I dont see your need to whine, cry foul and pretend to be offended. "I have spent over thirty-one years protecting the resources and sport of hunting for thankless people like you. People that don’t have even the slightest clue about most of the things they think they know so much about. I put my life on the line to save a few deer, turkeys and other wildlife so some jackass that spends all of their time bad mouthing the Game Commission and it’s Officers can go out and have a reasonable change of success even though most of them don’t deserve success because they haven’t put any honest effort into learning how to be successful." WAAAA! Cant think of any rational response to that drivel. RSB, more often then not, its the ones in green that prove beyond doubt who the "jackasses" are. I didnt do a thing outta line, I give the wcos who do their job as they should all the credit in the world and appreciate what they do, but you wanna feign your disgustand use that as an excuse to take REAL cheap shots. Real classy Mr. "professional". I badmouth the game commission because they deserve it. And for the most part that has zero to do with you, and I have little problem with most wcos, but just like any profession there are complete idiots there as well. Most Ive met havent fallen into that category.....But sorry, Im not gonna sign you up for sainthood because you are doing the job you chose to do. If you werent doing it, someone else would be.;) "We arrest the poachers when we encounter them, and I have arrested a lot of them over my career. " Congratulations. "What have you done for the benefit of the resources or the future of hunting?" Enough by my standards.And I dont find it necessary for you to judge wether its enough or not.;) "I dare say that you and your ilk have done far more harm to the sport of hunting and the future of our resources then even the poachers can do. " Sorry. But Im not the one causing the hunter ranks to dwindle by over double the national average. Im also not the one crying for money, being sued, being cussed to no end, and soon to be audited because of their "credibility" issues. And"my ilk" isnt either. LOLOL!:D |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
Bigcountry, I agree that the numbers of hunters makes it a challenge and nothing is gonna be 100% perfect for everyone, but we should shoot a bit higher than the lows we are at currently.
Rediculous extreme reductions, and having VERY few areas anywhere near their carry capacity is a travesty. |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 Couple those numbers with the rampant desire by the rank and file PA deer hunter to kill "his" buck, regardless of age of the deer, and damn the consequences down the road.... Very eloquently stated.:) Wrong, but well put.......... Breeding rates play a huge part in population....when that population is too large from the start. Many areas were severely overpopulated for years now. Reducing numbers was the right thing to do. Did we go too far in certain areas? I don`t know, as I have pretty much given up on the state I has hunted in since 1972. I do believe the word I get from a few individuals that tell me we are under ideal levels in various areas of the state. I can state from personal knowledge that despite big antlerless allocations, and a serious case of EHD, we still have some high deer densities in the southwest corner of the state. As to shooting 80% of the 1.5 year old crop............playing armchair biologist only works with some of us.;) |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
1st. the southwest corner of the state is being far too general. You have areas of 2B with very high densities and areas like 2C with MUCH lower densities...With others in between.
2nd the ehd hardest hit areas are still VERY low dd. 3rd. Many areas of the southwest, much of 2Afor example have far fewer than could be and should be had. The habitat never rated poor. Human conflict rated as low, and the 50%+ overwinter reduction by pgcs data,was completely overkill. More deer than many areas of the state. But should be due to some of the best habitat type. Overkill all the same. And whats worse, continuing the decline despite the claims of "stabilization" for the last 3 years. The allocations and harvest goals that are much higher now, than the supposedlast year of reduction doesnt lie. Only places Im aware of that havent been over harvested and may be above carry capacity, aside from an isolated pocket here or there, would be the sras. |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
While I do not perform deer density checks here in the southwest, I can safely say that around my hometown of New Stanton, we have ample number of deer.
In the Dunbar area in 2A where I do a lot of turkey hunting.......lots of deer. In Greene county near Aleppo where I have a camp, despite finding 80 deer that succumbed to EHD last fall, we still have WAY too many deer on the 600 acres we have. |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
Breeding rates play a huge part in population....when that population is too large from the start. Many areas were severely overpopulated for years now. Reducing numbers was the right thing to do. Did we go too far in certain areas? I don`t know, as I have pretty much given up on the state I has hunted in since 1972. I do believe the word I get from a few individuals that tell me we are under ideal levels in various areas of the state. I can state from personal knowledge that despite big antlerless allocations, and a serious case of EHD, we still have some high deer densities in the southwest corner of the state. As to shooting 80% of the 1.5 year old crop............playing armchair biologist only works with some of us. The harvest rate of 80% for 1.5 buck is from the PGC, not from an armchair biologist. |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 Breeding rates play a huge part in population....when that population is too large from the start. Many areas were severely overpopulated for years now. Reducing numbers was the right thing to do. Did we go too far in certain areas? I don`t know, as I have pretty much given up on the state I has hunted in since 1972. I do believe the word I get from a few individuals that tell me we are under ideal levels in various areas of the state. I can state from personal knowledge that despite big antlerless allocations, and a serious case of EHD, we still have some high deer densities in the southwest corner of the state. As to shooting 80% of the 1.5 year old crop............playing armchair biologist only works with some of us. The harvest rate of 80% for 1.5 buck is from the PGC, not from an armchair biologist. Second, I do not dispute that PA hunters kill 80% of the 1.5 year old crop of bucks......my comment regarding armchair biologists was a reference to you.;) You seemed to feel that this was an acceptable practice. |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
Only places Im aware of that havent been over harvested and may be above carry capacity, aside from an isolated pocket here or there, would be the sras.
And imagine we got AR in 2-B now that makes a whole lot of sense.:D |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
First, I would need to see where breeding rates have decreased? Where did this info come from? Why would breeding rates decrease? Obviously, with deer numbers down, fawn counts would drop accordingly, but breeding rates Second, I do not dispute that PA hunters kill 80% of the 1.5 year old crop of bucks......my comment regarding armchair biologists was a reference to you. You seemed to feel that this was an acceptable practice. yes ,it is an acceptable practice and it resulted in a harvest of 52k ,2.5+ buck in 2002 ,compared to a harvest of 48K 2.5+ buck in 2007. |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 First, I would need to see where breeding rates have decreased? Where did this info come from? Why would breeding rates decrease? Obviously, with deer numbers down, fawn counts would drop accordingly, but breeding rates I will look into that..... Second, I do not dispute that PA hunters kill 80% of the 1.5 year old crop of bucks......my comment regarding armchair biologists was a reference to you. You seemed to feel that this was an acceptable practice. yes ,it is an acceptable practice and it resulted in a harvest of 52k ,2.5+ buck in 2002 ,compared to a harvest of 48K 2.5+ buck in 2007. BTW, statistically speaking, what are the odds of a twice banned members survival rate? I`m just asking? |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
"While I do not perform deer density checks here in the southwest, I can safely say that around my hometown of New Stanton, we have ample number of deer. "
Yeah. "ample". That doesnt mean much in the way of deer management and proving it success or failure. Id hardly call that area "ample" but thats a to each his own opinion dealI guess. "In the Dunbar area in 2A where I do a lot of turkey hunting.......lots of deer." Oh yeah. Tons.;) I too hunt the area. One can certainly find deer. To say there are "lots" would be a bit strong of a statement however. "In Greene county near Aleppo where I have a camp, despite finding 80 deer that succumbed to EHD last fall, we still have WAY too many deer on the 600 acres we have." Id say you have a problem and should have opened the area to the public. I hunton about a dozen properties, maybe more In Greene. I travel here daily and live there. I assure you, if that is true, and I have my doubts, then thats a rediculous extreme, and about as far from the norm as one can get. Aside from my observations, or your extreme example,[8D]According to pgcs datathe wmu has had the ow density cut by over 50%. Id say thats very conservative. And considering the things they were supposed to look at to determine acceptable herd levels....Well...NONE of them supported reduction. The habitat wasnt poor, the human conflict low etc. The average dd is now approximately 25 dpfsm in the wmu according to pgc data.According to your observationsIf one takes into account YOUR spot and leaves it out, Im guessing that overall average would drop.:D;)(LOL). Most ehd areas, some of which I have friends at daily (they live there) and I have hunted the areas just for kicks, not wanting to harvest anything but a coyote or huge buck maybe if seen, but not likely. Mainly to get an idea of whats going on... WAAAAAY down. We're talking single digit ow deer density in some areas last year and being generous, low double digit densities preseason this year. I wouldnt shoot a deer on several of those properties if pgc paid me to do it. They do like to do damage control and say things about the area like no damage done etc. We who have lived and hunted in the wmu for many years know better. Its a pr stunt and their desire is to kick the herd here while its down. Dont get me wrong, there are huntable areas very good areas. Most are a shadow of what they were. Some due to way too many tags. Some due to ehd and the worst areas, thanks to both. Yet the pen never waivers when it comes time to add up the next years rediculous allocation. |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
"First, I would need to see where breeding rates have decreased? Where did this info come from? Why would breeding rates decrease? Obviously, with deer numbers down, fawn counts would drop accordingly, but breeding rates? "
Yep Its fact. And these are the more recent years when most reduction has been achieved and the rates where supposed to be at their best. Percentages of adult does bred: 2003----93% 2004----90% 2005----90% 2006----89% More importantly the embryos per adult doe DECLINED. 2000---1.60 2001---1.58 2002---1.64 2003---1.60 2004---1.53 2005---1.51 2006---1.53 If this didnt INCREASE as it was supposed to, Id say that the data doesnt support the unnecessarily extreme plan. Since it actually shows SIGNIFICANT DECLINE, when couple with all the other failed predictions and unbased claims, and conflicting data...Id call it a MISERABLY FAILED PROGRAM. "BTW, statistically speaking, what are the odds of a twice banned members survival rate? " Why not stick with debate instead of throwing around accusations just because you arent faring well with the facts. Ive seen bluebird be nothing butpolite with you and havent seen any board rules broken. If you think otherwise, feel free to contact whoever you need to. I dont see a need to keep throwing out accusations. Pgc will survive without you having to try and have anyone who challenges them banned.[:@] |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
I guess that our definition of "lots" is not thesame.;)
As to greene county, still too many deer, and it is not limited to the private ground I hunt. I can`t drive to Waynesburg of an evening without dodging deer. And letting the public in to hunt.........not in this lifetime. There are so many poachers with no regard for property, game laws, and littering, we will never go down that road again. Other people do hunt there, but you can bet that I know them personally, and know when they are around. And they know what the rules are. |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
"And letting the public in to hunt.........not in this lifetime. There are so many poachers with no regard for property, game laws, and littering, we will never go down that road again. Other people do hunt there, but you can bet that I know them personally, and know when they are around. And they know what the rules are. "
I dont blame you for those reasons. Seems to me though, you are basing support of this program on a property that has not at all been touched by it. Also, if you support sound management, there is no excuse to have those numbers of deer on one square mile, yet you seem to support numbers less than1/5 or 1/6 that, and continuing to decline everywhere else in the wmu. And yes, I see adeer or few on nearly daily basis on my travels through the county. I dont find that odd since the area isnt exactly "big woods" and the deer here are HIGHLY visible due to the broken habitat, and ya gotta remember you are driving through many square miles of deer habitat. My problem isnt with "no deer" here. ITs with provenless than can be had responsibly for no reason. Its also with the desire of pgc to have thenow muchlower numbers to continue to decline even though they claim to be "stabilizing" it. The allocations dont equal that and will not allow it. |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
ORIGINAL: the outsider I've been trading e-mails with someone who is allowing us to hunt on a property in northern Clinton County (2G). This particular area apparently has a decent population of deer (more than the 10+- we are used to there). Unfortunately someone illegally killed a large buck there recently, cut off the head, and left the body. I'm sure a lot more are illegally killed in 2G, as it has a low human population. We used to hear a lot of shooting on Sunday night before the buck season opener when there was a lot of deer there. if that BIG BUCK was in HYNER,PA. area of clinton county, i have a good idea who did it.[:@]headless bucks were also found 2 years ago in clinton county off rt.144 near the beech crrek rd/swamp branch rd. i think they found 5 headless huge bucks.[:@] WCO knows who it is. but he is only allowed 5 hrs overtime a month.:eek: i said it before,WCO MUST BE PUT ON SALARY,GET RID OF OVERTIME.;) |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
Sometimes somepeople scoff at your posts sproulman, but you hit this one right on the head. You seem to know what's going on in that area.
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RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
ORIGINAL: RSB Thats doubtful Rsb. Especially since there are so many fewer. I have rarely had much trouble finding deer when many others were complaining. It has been that way for over forty years. Over my entire hunting career other hunters have been spending their time complaining about no deer.I insteadhave spent my time learning about deer, what they eat, when they eat, where they bed and where and when they are most likely to be moving. While other are sitting around complaining I am most likely either in the field working and learning. Then when the season is in and I have the tags, and the time when not at work,to hunt I spend my time hunting instead of complaining. I agree that I am seeing far fewer deer then there used to be, but I am still seeing plenty of deer in ALL of the places where anyone that knows much of anything about deer would expect to find deer. The difference is that now deer don’t have to spend nearly all of their time competing with way to many deer to find enough food to stay alive. Now deer can behave as deer were intended by living in the best habitat areas and only being up walking around feeding during short duration periods. Maybe a new Wco is needed that can actually curtail these crimes against our resources instead of having them increasing out of control in the area spoken of? Perhaps what should be "common sense" would be stricter wco performance evaluations? Boy talk about a cheap shot! I have spent over thirty-one years protecting the resources and sport of hunting for thankless people like you. People that don’t have even the slightest clue about most of the things they think they know so much about. I put my life on the line to save a few deer, turkeys and other wildlife so some jackass that spends all of their time bad mouthing the Game Commission and it’s Officers can go out and have a reasonable change of success even though most of them don’t deserve success because they haven’t put any honest effort into learning how to be successful. We arrest the poachers when we encounter them, and I have arrested a lot of them over my career. What have you done for the benefit of the resources or the future of hunting? I dare say that you and your ilk have done far more harm to the sport of hunting and the future of our resources then even the poachers can do. The poachers hurt the honest hunters but the clueless people that undermine sound scientific wildlife management, and the funding needed to maintain such programs, do irrepairable damage that lasts for decades and maybe even centuries. R.S. Bodenhorn rsb, comeon down to CLINTON COUNTY,we dont have deer but we do have POACHERS and they are after the BIG BUCKS and hunters are getting awful mad over the bucks killed illegally at night. i will tell you also what hurts the HONEST hunters. the BROWN ITS DOWN HUNTERS WITH KID ALONG OR KIDS TAG ALONG .no need to look for horns or 3 point rule. how do you stop that? its happening and a lot of it is in the CREWS driving deer. i hear it all time,i even told WCO at lock haven,pa. about it..[:@] |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
ORIGINAL: sproulman ORIGINAL: RSB Thats doubtful Rsb. Especially since there are so many fewer. I have rarely had much trouble finding deer when many others were complaining. It has been that way for over forty years. Over my entire hunting career other hunters have been spending their time complaining about no deer.I insteadhave spent my time learning about deer, what they eat, when they eat, where they bed and where and when they are most likely to be moving. While other are sitting around complaining I am most likely either in the field working and learning. Then when the season is in and I have the tags, and the time when not at work,to hunt I spend my time hunting instead of complaining. I agree that I am seeing far fewer deer then there used to be, but I am still seeing plenty of deer in ALL of the places where anyone that knows much of anything about deer would expect to find deer. The difference is that now deer don’t have to spend nearly all of their time competing with way to many deer to find enough food to stay alive. Now deer can behave as deer were intended by living in the best habitat areas and only being up walking around feeding during short duration periods. Maybe a new Wco is needed that can actually curtail these crimes against our resources instead of having them increasing out of control in the area spoken of? Perhaps what should be "common sense" would be stricter wco performance evaluations? Boy talk about a cheap shot! I have spent over thirty-one years protecting the resources and sport of hunting for thankless people like you. People that don’t have even the slightest clue about most of the things they think they know so much about. I put my life on the line to save a few deer, turkeys and other wildlife so some jackass that spends all of their time bad mouthing the Game Commission and it’s Officers can go out and have a reasonable change of success even though most of them don’t deserve success because they haven’t put any honest effort into learning how to be successful. We arrest the poachers when we encounter them, and I have arrested a lot of them over my career. What have you done for the benefit of the resources or the future of hunting? I dare say that you and your ilk have done far more harm to the sport of hunting and the future of our resources then even the poachers can do. The poachers hurt the honest hunters but the clueless people that undermine sound scientific wildlife management, and the funding needed to maintain such programs, do irrepairable damage that lasts for decades and maybe even centuries. R.S. Bodenhorn rsb, comeon down to CLINTON COUNTY,we dont have deer but we do have POACHERS and they are after the BIG BUCKS and hunters are getting awful mad over the bucks killed illegally at night. i will tell you also what hurts the HONEST hunters. the BROWN ITS DOWN HUNTERS WITH KID ALONG OR KIDS TAG ALONG .no need to look for horns or 3 point rule. how do you stop that? its happening and a lot of it is in the CREWS driving deer. i hear it all time,i even told WCO at lock haven,pa. about it..[:@] I’d love to have the time to come down and help catch the poachers in Clinton County but I have too darn many of them here to eat up my time. I agree that many unscrupulous hunters will kill any buck and use a Mentored Youth or Junior Hunter’s tag on it. I also wish I knew the answer on how to fix that problem with today’s political attitudes. The only thing that would make that less of a problem would be to make everyone, youth included, conform to the antler restrictions. A lot of the hunters and certainly the politicians are apposed to making youth pass on a buck regardless of the antler size. Other then that just keep working with the WCO toward arresting the people violating in such a manner. R.S. Bodenhorn I’ll get back to some of the other posts on this thread as time permits. It is time to get to bed now. Tomorrow is an early work day. |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
ORIGINAL: RSB ORIGINAL: sproulman ORIGINAL: RSB Thats doubtful Rsb. Especially since there are so many fewer. I have rarely had much trouble finding deer when many others were complaining. It has been that way for over forty years. Over my entire hunting career other hunters have been spending their time complaining about no deer.I insteadhave spent my time learning about deer, what they eat, when they eat, where they bed and where and when they are most likely to be moving. While other are sitting around complaining I am most likely either in the field working and learning. Then when the season is in and I have the tags, and the time when not at work,to hunt I spend my time hunting instead of complaining. I agree that I am seeing far fewer deer then there used to be, but I am still seeing plenty of deer in ALL of the places where anyone that knows much of anything about deer would expect to find deer. The difference is that now deer don’t have to spend nearly all of their time competing with way to many deer to find enough food to stay alive. Now deer can behave as deer were intended by living in the best habitat areas and only being up walking around feeding during short duration periods. Maybe a new Wco is needed that can actually curtail these crimes against our resources instead of having them increasing out of control in the area spoken of? Perhaps what should be "common sense" would be stricter wco performance evaluations? Boy talk about a cheap shot! I have spent over thirty-one years protecting the resources and sport of hunting for thankless people like you. People that don’t have even the slightest clue about most of the things they think they know so much about. I put my life on the line to save a few deer, turkeys and other wildlife so some jackass that spends all of their time bad mouthing the Game Commission and it’s Officers can go out and have a reasonable change of success even though most of them don’t deserve success because they haven’t put any honest effort into learning how to be successful. We arrest the poachers when we encounter them, and I have arrested a lot of them over my career. What have you done for the benefit of the resources or the future of hunting? I dare say that you and your ilk have done far more harm to the sport of hunting and the future of our resources then even the poachers can do. The poachers hurt the honest hunters but the clueless people that undermine sound scientific wildlife management, and the funding needed to maintain such programs, do irrepairable damage that lasts for decades and maybe even centuries. R.S. Bodenhorn rsb, comeon down to CLINTON COUNTY,we dont have deer but we do have POACHERS and they are after the BIG BUCKS and hunters are getting awful mad over the bucks killed illegally at night. i will tell you also what hurts the HONEST hunters. the BROWN ITS DOWN HUNTERS WITH KID ALONG OR KIDS TAG ALONG .no need to look for horns or 3 point rule. how do you stop that? its happening and a lot of it is in the CREWS driving deer. i hear it all time,i even told WCO at lock haven,pa. about it..[:@] I’d love to have the time to come down and help catch the poachers in Clinton County but I have too darn many of them here to eat up my time. I agree that many unscrupulous hunters will kill any buck and use a Mentored Youth or Junior Hunter’s tag on it. I also wish I knew the answer on how to fix that problem with today’s political attitudes. The only thing that would make that less of a problem would be to make everyone, youth included, conform to the antler restrictions. A lot of the hunters and certainly the politicians are apposed to making youth pass on a buck regardless of the antler size. Other then that just keep working with the WCO toward arresting the people violating in such a manner. R.S. Bodenhorn I’ll get back to some of the other posts on this thread as time permits. It is time to get to bed now. Tomorrow is an early work day. dam, of all years we poked at each other,WE FINALLY AGREED ON SOMETHING:D THAT WAS MY idea also, i feel a kid should go by rule ,3 point to side.you are right, it could put the BROWN CROWD out of business. i also would like to see, let only kids shoot a doe in WMU2G,not us. this could put many more kids in woods. only thing that could help SOME,is the WCO to stop and tell crews or any adult with kid that shooting at any deer and having kid tag it WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. THIS I THINK, WOULD SCARE most OF THE HUNTERS DOING THIS.;) RIGHT NOW IN CLINTON COUNTY, WE VERY SELDOM EVER SEE AWCO, THEY KNOW THIS.:eek: |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
Big Country,did you ever think that guys like you are the reason hunters have become the way they are today,especially in Greene County.I've hunted there the past 25 years and it's the mentality you exibit that causes people to do the things you bitch about.When I started hunting in Green,all you had to do was ask for permission and most of the time it was o.k. It was an untapped resource since the majority of hunters in western Pa still went to the big woods up north to hunt.But as that herd declined and word got out more guys stated to look for places to go close to home where the deer population was booming and big bucks were a lot more prevalent.Since then,it's become more or less a private hunting ground for landownwers and guys who can afford to lease propery there.Now I'm not defending the actions like you describe,but don't complain about too many deer and then turn everyone away who wants permission to hunt . As far as poaching, the residents and landowners there kill more deer out of season than poachers could ever kill,and I personally don't have a problem with them taking an occasional deer for meat,but they shouldn't point the finger at somebody else when they're guilty of the same thing.Owning property does't give anyone the right to break the laws that everyone else is expected to adhear to. Landowners don't own the deer so they're no more entitled to them than anybody else.I've witnessed more than one confrontaion between an irrate landowner and a hunter that the landowner "thinks" is doing something wrong (remember a few years back when the landowner killed a guys he thought was road hunting and all he was doing was taking a leak).Most of the property I hunted the landowners themselves couldn't get along with their neigbors and wouldn't allow them to hunt on their property.You can't have it both ways ! You can't complain about too many deer and then do everything in your power to keep people from hunting them.In the last 10 years I've lost my hunting areas 3 times due to guys willing to pays big dollars to lease the property I had permission to hunt on.The only option then is the state gamelands which are almost void of deer and hunters behind every tree.It's not the place I want to take my 3 sons to.You show me a piece of private ground that open to hunting with permission and I'd be glad to go there but it's tough sledding at best.Try getting turned down 20-30 times a day when asking permission and you'd get discouraged too.Put yourself on the other side of the fence and you'll realize how tough it is.Consider yourself extremely lucky for what you have because there are a lot of us around with no opportunities out there and not enough $'s to pay for our own private hunting grounds.P.S. I'd be more than happy to take care of some of those deer for you ! I can provide refences upon request.
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RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
OK, but what percentage of the harvest was the 48k compared to the 2002 52k percentage? |
RE: Pa Game Comm. Overhaul
[quote]ORIGINAL: 4evrhtn
ORIGINAL: RSB I agree that I am seeing far fewer deer then there used to be, but I am still seeing plenty of deer in ALL of the places where anyone that knows much of anything about deer would expect to find deer. I do all the same things in Ohio (for instance) and I saw more deer in one day there than I have all season here in Pa. I saw more buck in 2 days than I have total deer in Pa. Your claim that the deer are "behaving as deer are intended" doesn't wash with me. The only way for deer to do what deer do naturally is to take man out of the equation. PAGC programs dictate behaviors and populations so don't claim things are so perfectto statethings are the way they "naturally" should be. Anyone "who knows much of anything" knows better! Please bless me with some insight from your expertise to help me become more successful at seeing all these deer in Pa that I apparently know nothing about. Is the secret to count the same deer over and over again? |
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