Definitely some serious PGC numbers here not adding up! Let's blame the financial status for the bad math.

Once again it appears that you are intentionally trying to mislead hunters to believe that the PGC has no way to estimate fawn recruitment. I know you qualified your claim by saying the PGC doesn't have an accurate way of measuring recruitment, but they do have a way of estimating recruitment ,just like they estimate , population densities and harvests. The PGC uses the SAK computer model ,modified for the effects of ARs, to estimate recruitment.

If the PGC couldn't estimate recruitment ,they couldn't tell if the herd was increasing or decreasing and they would have no idea how many antlerless tags to issue each year. WMU 2g is a prime example of how it works. After the 2006 the PGC said the herd in 2G increased by 42% so the PGC increased the antlerless allocation from 19,000 in 2006 to 26,000 in 2007.

Here is a quote from the 2005-2006 AWR which explains how they use the SAK model to calculate fawn recruitment rates.

RSB,i have 3 doe and 4 fawns and 1, 3 point buck in my yard.

my area is protected from coyotes ,so far and i allow NO HUNTING.

THESE DEER STAY HERE ALL WINTER AND SOME GET HIT BY CARS.

now, out in tamarack areai have relatives.
they have corn planted and soybeans and deer have it nice all year getting fat and sassy.

yet, NO FAWNS.

they hear all kinds of coyotes barking in around june 15th area,they said doe running scared and swimming streams to get away.

i saw 2 fawns killed within 1 hr at alvin bush dam in the middle of day, noon,while we were fishing in our bass tournaments,the sound was awful.

5 mother doe swam the lake to get away.

the vice president of USP was a STATE EMPLOYEE working dcnr at park.his name was don clemmer,he also lives there too.

he stated to us he saw it and saw it many times in tamarack area.

he said barking is always heavy around time the fawns are born..


RSB , i have pictures on my trail camera of 2 coyotes attacked 3 doe while they were feeding on pipeline in my area at 10.15 pm last week.

those doe did not return until 1.30 am that morning and were very spooky lifting their heads,not calm at all.

these were full grown deer.

i feel from what i see and hear that in wmu2g reason for lack of fawns is early doe season in oct and coyotes killing fawnsand hunters shooting what is left.

ALSO, i interviewd many muzzleloader late season hunters and they said they found baby fawns in doe they killed,WE WOULD NEVER SHOOT A DOE IN LATE MUZZLELOADER SEASON, ONLY BUCKS.

gary alt sat at our table with state rep hanna,he stated to SPROUL,he said, the early doe seasonin oct will REDUCE the number of fawns bigtime.

he also said for this to work,HUNTERS MUST LET THE FAWNS LIVE,that aint happening.

he also said,KILL OLD DOE AS THEY ARE ONES THAT HAVE 2 FAWNS OR MOST OF FAWNS.

RSB, WE DONT HAVE MANY OLD DOE LEFT, MOST I SEE ARE 2 YEAR OLD OR LESS DOE.

i agree with you, if doe does not have good food,they will not be healthy BUT wmu2g has had deer herd reduce so low, acorns were rotting on ground UNTIL THIS YEAR. STILL IS plenty of feed for deer that are left to be healthy.in area i hunt, i feel i have about 3 to 4 deer in a 2 mile area but you can go to 2 miles away, no deer .

now, i have more hunters in my area than i ever had,i had 6 on my camera in 3 days,all scouting those 3 doe that are left.

this is why i dont hunt doe but in comes other hunters and they clean area out and move on.

how are we ever to manage this so we have deer if hunters kill off what is left in area and move on,we already have miles of area with feed and no deer and many more are going to be cleaned out this year as hunters go WHERE DEER ARE NOW.+


doe i see are healthy looking,but no fawns.


same with SGL252,greatest habitat for deer,PGC does a great job there,but hunt there like i do for pheasants,very few sign of deer, no poo and very few buck rubs etc.

locals say ITS SHOT OUT.

go 5 miles away,100s of deer on the rockview prison, fawns all over,lots of deer but habitat is no where near as good as the PGC SGL252.

why, its privateland and they shoot a coyote if they see one

BIGGEST PREDATORS ARE COYOTE ANDFILL TAGS HUNTERS AND THROW IN BEAR ALSO and you have reason why lack of fawns.

"You claim that 2A is not a metropolitan unit but I say horse puckey. From my perspective as compared to unit 2G it is a very metropolitan unit"

He he he. No my friend. Its not "metropolitan" by any stretch. Just because you compare it to the "wilderness" of the big woods to suit your needs STILL does not make it "metropolitan" and that isTHEE DUMBEST self serving comment Ive ever heard you make and thats saying a bunch!!!

"And, buy the way I am pretty familiar with unit 2A. I have worked in Washington and Greene Counties and I have hunted in Allegheny and Washington Counties."

Ive lived, worked and hunted here for 40 years. Youlive halfway across the state and made rediculous claims! (LOL) BTW, ALLEGHENY COUNTY which IS a "metro" area is in 2B NOT 2A. ALsothe only fragment of Washington county is the most rural area of the county.South of theslightly urban area. Greene, the entire county is in 2A and the biggest "city" LOL is Waynesburg Pa.....Better check out the population of that major "metropolis" LOL!!! Half of Fayette, which isnt exactly full of "city slickers"! (LOL)(LOL).....and as stated, Pgc has said HUMAN CONFLICT: LOW![8D][8D][8D]

Get a grip RSB. You are reaching far and wide now! PGC doesnt consider it an urban area, and has stated such. In fact, NOONE does or should. But you like to think far FAR outside the box! (LOL)[8D]

"I have been in all of the counties that make up unit 2A and have seen how metropolitian it is as compared to unit 2G."

You can comparethe huge majority of the wmus to 2G and theywill have higher populus than one of the very leastpopulated in the state! (LOL) Big deal!!Whatdoes that prove other than you wanna decieveanyone and everyone into thinking anywhere but "the big woods" is urban, and thatthere is somereason for the madness when there clearly isnt!

BTW, the habitat in 2A can, and should support more deer than any of the big woods areas.

The harvests are also reducing the herd in 2a. Have been, and continue to.

"Now go ahead and explain to everyone how it is that the deer herd can’t increase in 2G because we have been harvesting too many does."

Quite simple. Much smaller herd, takes muchsmaller harvest to reduce it.

"Then go ahead and tell us again how they have reduced the deer population by 50% in 2a yet the hunters are still harvesting so many more deer. "

The tag level has increased by over 15,000 since 45,000 tags reduced it previously, which is why it didnt initially decline. The harvest has NOT continued to increase either, but has decreased. PGC's own data shows that the herd decreased from 69 dpfsm-owin greene county, and 74 in Wash, down to21-30 ow, or an average of 25owdpfsm in wmu2A. Dont shoot the messenger.

"The facts simply don’t bear out your opinions. But like a lot of others I guess you think opinions should carry more weight then facts? "

he hehe. Like yours? And 2A being "metropolitan"? LOLOLOL! Or our herd not having been reduced when even Pgc says so? When EVERYONE even those satisfied with the plan admit to seeing 3 to 5 times less deer? When even the people for less deer on the cac said they believe the herd to be "decreasing"?

RSB, I think Ive lost just about the last shred of respect Ive had for your "opinions". No way you can be taken seriously after your last compilation of unsubstantiated completeramblings.

UNBELIEVABLE! (LOL)

....This just in....From the great "metropolis" of 2a! (LOL)(LOL)

According to 2000 census.

Greene County Pa ----- 40,672
Elk County Pa----------- 35,112

Now Rsb, THIS is a metropolitan area, (and not in 2A!)--

Allegheny Co.-----------1,281,666

The only other "pieces" of 2a are just that. Pieces of other counties, andWash for example is the rural part, and not to be confused with the more populated areasto the north.Id hardly call Fayette a "metropolis" either.It falls in the lower middle of the pack of wmus, andonly half of it is in the wmu 2A.

Greene, only has 13 -14 counties with lower human populations and many of those are only by 1 to 2 thousand. Not bad considering we have 67 counties!


Ha ha ha. Think I'll go over to my cousins place over on the other side of 2a towatch a fieldthis evening. Hope I dont get hit by one of those spoiled,rich yuppies riding around on their tractors, or get mugged by one of those rough gangs that just might pull a length of bailer twine on me!....or perhaps hassle me to buy an "eight ball" of ginseng root!(LOL)(LOL)


Here ya go! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greene_County,_Pennsylvania

ole SPROUL has been at odds with RSB for longtime now,i guess we are like ,CAPT RSBcoming after me,GERONIMO

when my friend said,SPROUL I DROVE FROM DRIFTWOOD TO KEATING[CLINTON/CAMERON/ELK COUNTY WMU2G]AND I SAW 12 DEER IN THOSE 15 MILES,WHAT DO YOU MEAN THERE ARE NO DEER.

I GUESS TO SOME, SEEING 12 DEER IN 15 MILES IS SEEING A LOT OF DEER

i agree, seeing 12 deer in 15 miles is seeing a LOT OF DEER IN WMU2G NOW.[:@]

You're a hoot Sproul.I hunt around Sinnemahoning and see lots of deer.In fact,I've seen over 20 in one morning alone a few times in the last three years.I also routinely see well over a dozen deer a day while hunting SGL 93 and 77 in WMU 2g.They're slow days compared to whatI see in certain parts of Moshannon state forest and on Seneca resource properties,which are open to the public.

I know you find RSB's post quite disturbing ,but let me show you what a nice guy old RSB really is. not many guys would post data that proves they don't know what they are talking about as RSB does routinely. Here is a prime example.

What the data for 2G shows is that after the habitat had been overbrowsed by much higher deer densities for over 50 years, the habitat supported an antlerless harvest which is more than double the current harvest for 15 years. But, now that the deer density in 2G has been reduced by 50%, RSB is claiming the habitat is controlling the herd even though the habitat did not the control the herd at much higher DD from 1988 to 2002.
Now let's look at what the data from 2A tells us. The PGC told us the habitat in 2A could only support 13 DPSM while the habitat in 2G could support 15 DPSM. from 88-92 the habitat in both 2g and 2A supported a harvest of over 5 doe/SM. But 15 years later the habitat in 2A is supporting a harvest of 9.49 DPSM, which is over 3 times the harvest rate in 2G. So after 15 years the deer in 2A didn't over browse the habitat as RSB claims the would. Furthermore, 2A has 61% regeneration with at least 3 times as many deer as 2G with 42% regeneration.

So ,it is obvious that RSB and the PGC don't listen to what the deer are telling us and have no clue how to manage our herd.

douge,20 deer is not a lot of deer.

sinnemahoning has a lot of PRIVATELAND and a lot of camps that feed and protect deer somewhat.

no doubt you saw 20 deer there.i used to see 200 there from bridge up to dam easy.i hunted the summerson property at bridge with dad when it was nothing to see 20 deer a drive.

so, you see sproul has been around, i have.

my privateland has about 11 deer on it,my yard has 3 doe,4 fawns, 1 buck.

yet, you can drive on stateforestland and you are lucky to see many deer.if any at times.

most i saw scouting this year together was 3 doe.most times its 1 deer or 2 ,mostly 1 doe.


is pheasant hunting any good over your way?

Sproul.I don't know what to tell you but seeing 20 deer in one area during a morning hunt is alot of deer by my standards.

I hunt elk state forest and 200 acres of privately owned,dmappd and open to the public land.The guy who owns the place practically begs for hunters to hunt his property.

I can't tell you about the pheasant hunting becauseI don't hunt stocked birds.