Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

Does anyone know the deadline this year for county treasurers to mail out doe permits (first and second round) to the successful applicants.

I forgot all about writing early archery on the envelope this year and didntdo it so I might be SOL for the 2B early doe opener!

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

my out of state license for 2D came yesterday. yum, can tatse them straps already.

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

Treasurers are required to mail-out first round and first round unsold antlerless licenses, by Sept. 15th this year. Second round unsold licenses must be mailed by Oct. 1st.

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

Strange thing....I got my second round license for 2D late last week, and got my initial round license yesterday, also for 2D. Different county treasurers, I guess...

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

That happened to me last year. Got the second round 3A tag a day or twobefore the first round tag came. Second round came from Bradford Co. The first roundtag came from Potter.

Both of this year's 3A tags came from Potter. First round tag came last week, second rounder came today, so I'm all done with gettin'doe tags for this season.

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

Are you planning on killing 2 doe in the area where you say the herd has been reduced by 50% or did you buy the tags to prevent some other hunter from killing 2 doe?

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

The fact that a threadhappens to beabouta Pennsylvania issue is not an invitationfor you to hijack itto get on your soapbox once again. This type of behavior got you banned before and will likely get you banned again.

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

Got all of mine in the last four days. First round 2F, second round 2D and second round 2B's just in time for the early opener Saturday!

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

Denny answered your question and after that everything else was off topic,so just what is your problem?

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

Please, go see a doctor!

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

I went to see Dr. Alt and found that he didn't know what he was talking about? I was thinking about seeing Dr. Kroll until I read his recent article and realized he wasn't much better than Dr. Alt. Maybe ,I'll have a talk with Dr. Demarais who at least is smart enough to know that ARs reduce the average rack size of 2.5+ buck due to high grading.

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

And just what in the hell does this have to do with when people received their antlerless tags??? Why don't you take your twisted crap and vacate the premisis?? You HAVE to know we are sick and tired of your continual harranging and no one even listens to you anymore. You are a plague on the net.
People like you surely show themselves after awhile, and your cover has been blown for a long time.
If you are so convinced of your beliefs and theories, get some funding and some BALLS and go sue the PGC. Get the hell off my computer screen.

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

I predict he will shortly advise you not to read his posts, if they bother you.;)

Bymy reckoning, he's dismissed the findings of just about every person with a Phd behind their name, that's everbeen involved withdeer, deer management, wildlife management, forest management and damn near anything else one might discuss on ahunting forum.

Figure some day he'll get around to pointing out the shortcomings of the Fish and Boat Commission, once he's exhausted his noggin full of wildlife managementlore.

Someone once asked me what I thought he might look like and this fellerimmediately came to mind.......

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

Hell BBird, I'm shooting everything i can! That is what the license is for...........I want everyone to smack and let the air out oflegal deer no matter the age. Then I get the second season in the good woods by myself. I have learned that Doctors do nothing but find things wrong w/ me. I quit going nothing is wrong! I also believe common sense in managing my ground and myself (which is all I can comforatbly manage and have rights too) is what I will do. If I put a moritorium on rack size (PAPGC be damned) on my ground, so be it, if I want to clean the doe herd up, so be it. You are not the only person who has an opinion, or reads management philosophies, Biology reportings, and cares about the land. The PAPGC is nothing but a police agency to me and is showing it's teeth because it's gums have receeded from OLD age and ideas. I do not buy into their ideas of game management for the same reason that they can't even get something as simple as a POS system installed. How can they or their paid proffesionals (PAPGC game lobbyists possibly ?)have any clue on building or maintaining a deer management program? So take those stats that you spew, and Dr.'s writings and philoso[phies and chuck them in that fenced in deer browse study area as that is what good I can see coming from them. You are the reason 'brown it's down" is popular in myth!

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

Zero social skills,fairly lowintelligence,an obsession with numbers but has difficulty applying even simple mathematical concepts to those numbers..........

I always figured he was the guy on the left......

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

I can't imagine why anyone would get so upset over my posts. You can still all believe whatever you want and sing the praises of the PGC deer management plan which reduced the buck harvest by over 45%. You can still shoot all the doe you want and reduce the herd as much as you want and manage your property any way you choose.

But if cheapshots and insults are all you have to defend the PGC and their plan, then I feel even more confident that my position ,which is supported by the PGC data, is the right position. However, if any one can provide the data that proves the plan worked as predicted , I will be willing to change my position and support the plan.

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

If any of the crap you've spewed out over the past few years made any sense or had any validity, at least one or two biologists or game agencies would have changed their managementstrategies. Guess what? They arent going to let one rain man wannabe change their plans no matter how insistent he becomes.

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

There you go again ,firing another cheap shot with no facts to back it up. I posted the data that showed breeding rates and productivity have decreased instead of increasing and you provided nothing. I posted PGC 2.5+ buck harvest data and you misrepresented Dr. Koll's article and claimed it debunked Miss. claims about reduced rack sizes when it did no such thing. I'm still waiting for you to prove anything I have posted was false or misleading and I expect I will have to wait a lot longer.

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

The habitat was severly degraded in many areas do to years and years of too many deer.This can't be disputed.Now that the herd has been reduced,the habitat is coming back nicely.

I met up with pawildman for the first time a few weeks ago.We took a semi-short tour through some public land in 2G.I think he'd agree that the habityat is on the upswing in these areas.

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

Can you explain why the improvement in the habitat isn't reflected in the PGC's assessment of forest health? Forest health in 2G is still rated poor with only 42% successful regeneration. How much more does the herd have to be reduced to improve regeneration to 70% in order to get good forest health?

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

Apparently you are still listening or you wouldn't be so bent out of shape.Maybe you can explain how my posts have any negative effect on what you do or believe or are you just upset because everybody doesn't agree with you?

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

2G is a big unit and I've never seen the PGC's regeneration plots.I do however,cover alot of ground throughout that unit and I see many promising signs of recovery,not verywhere but much more so than before.

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

That does not explain why the PGC experts disagree with your observations. Their survey plots are spread out over the entire WMU and their location is kept secret in order to prevent tampering.All of the plots have adequate sunlight, so if the plots aren't regenerating at 12 PS DPSM, then isn't the obvious solution to reduce the herd in 2G to 5 DPSM or less?

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

Boy what a load of bologna. Where did you get the idea the survey plots aren’t regenerating or improved from what they had been just a few years ago?

You are wrong, very wrong.

Even though the survey plots are still listed as poor the habitat in 2G is still much better then it was just few years ago. The habitat used to be horrible, from years of far too many deer, and now it is slightly better then that because the numbers have been lower for the past few years.
And no the deer herds don’t have to be taken down to 5 deer per square mile in order to continue having habitat improvement, so that isn’t the obvious solution as you suggested. Your comment was nothing more then pure nonsense posting in order to generate more misunderstanding and misinformation.

All that is required to continue having habitat improvement is holding the deer herd in check from becoming higher then what the long term habitat carrying capacity is. We have been marginally successful at that the past few years, even though the herd is presently on the increase. It will probably be decades yet before many areas of unit 2G will support many more deer then already exist there. In fact, if we were to have another couple of harsh winters like those we had a few years ago the winter grounds habitat most likely wouldn’t support the deer numbers we have in unit 2G right now or what we will have following this fall’s hunting season.

The plain and simple fact is that the fastest way to have more deer for the long term in unit 2G, or nearly any other unit, is by trying to keep fewer deer then the habitat can support. If you do that the habitat will recover and when it does the deer numbers will also increase to match the habitat and can also be sustained at the higher numbers as long as hunters continue to harvest about as many deer as they can.

What is also true is that if hunters don’t control the population we will have too many deer through the winter until the habitat declines. Then the deer numbers will decline to meet the reduced food supply. That is simply the way nature works and it has nothing to do with what you or anyone else wishes were true or different. That is what the deer and nature have already proved to us. It is time to listen to messages of the deer and nature instead of people that don’t understand much of anything about either deer or nature.

R.S.Bodenhorn

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

Would you please explain why the horrible habitat in 2G in 2003 produced a buck harvest of 10,110 and an antlerless harvest of 20,370 while the much better habitat in 2007 only produced a buck harvest of 5,100 and an antlerless harvest of 6,600?
In 2000 the PGC said 2G had 14 DPSM and by 2005 it was reduced to 8 or 9 DPSM. If the horrible habitat in 2000 supported 14 DPSM, why can't the improved habitat we have now support more than 8 or 9 DPSM?

Also, could you please tell us what the antlered/antlerless harvest ratio is needed in order to keep the herd stable?

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

You use every opportunity you can to spread your venom. YOU are the one that hijacked this thread to brgin with. If you will go back and read my initial reply to you, you would see exactly what I said.....You jumped right into a topic that had absolutely nothing to do with AR, HR, forest regeneration or anything else you decided to take the opportunity to expound on. Once again...in BIG letters so you can see and hopefully grasp the context of the initial poster's question....WHAT IN THE HELL DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH WHEN PEOPLE ARE RECEIVING THEIR ANTLERLESS LICENSES?????

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

That was the topic of this thread and the question was answered by Denny in the third post so everything posted after that was off topic. Then you posted about when you got your second round license , which had nothing to do with the deadline. How many posts do you want to read about who got their tags , on what day from what county.
If you think issuing antlerless tags has nothing to do with HR. would you please explain how the PGC managed to reduce the herd by over 40%?

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

Once again, just what does that have to do wuth the timeframe people received their antlerless tags in ??
You are in dire need of professional help.

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

That was a great time spent with you, Doug.... You showed me some territory I was unfamiliar with, and it's looking great!! Looking forward to doing it again, and wish to give you a tour of "my neck of the woods"....

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

"Boy what a load of bologna. Where did you get the idea the survey plots aren’t regenerating or improved from what they had been just a few years ago?"

Pgc says many areas arenot regenerating sufficiently. IF they arent, and the deer herd isrock bottom levels, guess the bologna you speak of isnt coming from Bluebird. Fact is there are many contributing factors, but deer get the blame. Kinda hard to blame something that now is "barely there" yet that doesnt stop pgc. Its not soil dificiencies, acid rain, poor timber practices, nothin'. Just them darn woods wreckers! Kill em all is the chant from Elmerton! LOL:D

"Even though the survey plots are still listed as poor the habitat in 2G is still much better then it was just few years ago."

Yeah, with very few deer it really skyrocketed from poor to "still poor"... At this rate, heck another century and we'll be able to increase the deer herd 5%.(LOL) Maybe THEN our ranks will quit declining at over DOUBLE the national average?

Sorry guys about the off topic post, saw an ongoingdiscussion where my b.s. meter dang near redlined and thought Id"keep it real".

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

Yep there are many factors besides deer that affect regeneration. But guess what it still doesn’t matter because without the regeneration NATURE will simply not allow more deer to live there. Nature will always limit the number of deer that can live without the regeneration, unless you, and the other people that think they have it all figured out, are also smart enough to teach the deer how to survive by eating rocks.

The problem is that too many people haven’t figured out yet that in many areas, especially across the northern tier, it is NATURE limiting the deer numbers, not the Game Commission. You have to go back to the basics of understanding the first and most basic law of nature. The first and most basic law of nature guarantees that no living organism can exist in population greater then their food supply for more then short term periods of ideal conditions. That isn’t the Game Commission’s rule or doing that is simply Nature’s LAW.

Dick Bodenhorn

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

Sure that isn’t too hard for someone who has been paying attention to the realities if the deer, the habitat and other environmental factors in unit 2G to figure out.

In 2003 unit 2G was still coming off of a series of about six years of good to excellent mast crop years followed by winters with very little snow. Those very ideal environmental conditions that allowed the deer populations to increase to levels that were much higher then normal because the deer were going through the winter in good enough condition to have higher then normal fawn recruitment year after year. Combine that with the fact that the antler less allocations had been extremely low through those years and it isn’t too hard to figure out that the deer population was much higher then it should have been or what nature would normally allow. The 2003 was an attempt to get those higher then normal deer populations back in line before nature caused a deer population crash. But, the increased harvests of 2002 and 2003 was still too little to late to prevent the deer population crash.

The affects of the three years of failed mast crops combined with two back to back harsh winters with deep snows came along following and by 2004 the deer herd had crashed in unit 2G because of almost no fawns surviving beyond their first week of life for a couple of years in a row. That is exactly what happens and how nature guarantees that populations can only be higher then the winter carrying capacity for short term periods of ideal conditions. Ideal conditions just don’t last forever without getting a bad winter thrown into the mix from time to time.

Quote:

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In 2000 the PGC said 2G had 14 DPSM and by 2005 it was reduced to 8 or 9 DPSM. If the horrible habitat in 2000 supported 14 DPSM, why can't the improved habitat we have now support more than 8 or 9 DPSM?

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I have told you hundreds of times while you were ever name under the sun, from Beenthere to deerfly to what ever others dozens of names you have used that those DPSM numbers had little to no correlation to reality. That is why they are no longer used.

I would highly suspect that unit 2G had far more then 14 deer per square mile in 2000 and far more then 9 in 2005 as well. After all 2005 they harvested over 3 deer per square mile in unit 2G. Surely you don’t think they harvested anywhere near even 25% of the deer in 2G when the hunters harvested fewer then 12% of the collared does being tracked in the unit. Someone with you love of numbers should be smart enough to figure out that the deer numbers had to be MUCH higher then the number you like to use in your flim flam and misrepresentation of facts games.

The habitat today is supporting more deer then it did just a few years ago. But, now we manage deer based on the facts the deer and their food supply instead of a bunch of estimated deer numbers that might or might not be correct.

Quote:

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Also, could you please tell us what the antlered/antlerless harvest ratio is needed in order to keep the herd stable?

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The harvest ratio that is needed to keep a population stable would be the exact same number that were recruited into the deer herd that spring and summer. That is why it is desirable to have the correct buck/doe ratio needed to maximize the breeding rates and times. That is what maximizes fawn recruitment and allows hunters to harvest more deer each year. That is why the areas of the state that have had unlimited antler less deer harvests for the past twenty years can harvest three or four times as many deer per square mile, city streets and all, as they do in the big woods areas without reducing their deer populations. The difference is that they protect the deer food instead of the deer and in so doing they have high fawn recruitment because nature allows more deer to live in areas where they have food for more deer. Meanwhile the areas were we have over protected the deer the habitat was damaged to the point fewer deer were all that could live there.

There really isn’t anything difficult about understanding how that all works for anyone that really understands how the first and most basic law of nature works.


R.S.Bodenhorn

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

You wanna see deer in 2G. Go to 4 mile run road near elliot park. There are tons of deer there. I bet I seenover 60 there the other night.That is state forestland.

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

"Yep there are many factors besides deer that affect regeneration. But guess what it still doesn’t matter because without the regeneration NATURE will simply not allow more deer to live there."

There are so few areas of this state that currently fit into that description, I dont know why you bothered to mention it. The herd would need be over carrying capacity and in the huge majority of the state it isnt. And in many areas, it never was. But as for currently,even pgc doesnt believe that the case, since their herd health assessments for most of the state are not"poor". Also interesting that some of the areas of WORST habitat, have some of the highest herd health ratings according to pgc annual reports. Which tells me, things do not add up. Not surprising, since over most of the state, herd health was never an issue. This can also be seen by the DECLINE in overall statewidebreeding rates andembryo counts since the plan has been ongoing.

"Nature will always limit the number of deer that can live without the regeneration"

Of course it will in cases of extremes. There are no indicators that has been the case over most of the state, yet much to the contrary.

"unless you, and the other people that think they have it all figured out, are also smart enough to teach the deer how to survive by eating rocks."

Im not the one who "thinks" they have it all figured out. I just knowa tall talewhen Im told it. To insinuate we needed statewide carpet bombing which is exactly what we got, and immense reduction even in the best areas of the state at times as much as 50-60%, in areas of low human conflict and habitat that never rated poor,in the worst areas of the state taken to rock bottom and all areas in between felt thewrath of the pgc slaughter andsome can make excuses till blue in the face, but many areas were overdone severely, and others, no reduction was warranted in the first place. I know youve been around these debates on a few different message boards for some time now, and I know you are aware of the influence audubon, timber industry and others have had on the deer program. While you'll never admitits the "driving force" behind the program, because those are good enoughreasons for most to agree with "staying the course".

I agree with "sound scientific management" in principal. Currently the "practice" has quite a few divets, and the reason has nothing to do with science, but everything to do withwho is on the boc and others making the decisions.

Rebuild pgc using "hunter friendly" biologists who actually care about the sport and Im sure "scientific management" would STILL BE scientific management, but Id lay a wager it would NOT mirror this current plan. Many other states do have such a "hunter friendly" system in place and NONE are following pgcs "lead". Thats because while Pgc thinks they are in the lead, they are actually so far behind, theyve been lapped.;)

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

bluebird, if you know so much about AR and deer population, you need to go to work for the PGC. i think you have worn out the subject with all your numbers and quotes. please give it a rest.

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

The PGC already knows everything I know about ARs and deer populations. But, politics demands that they manage the herd for the benefit of DCNR and the timber industry so if I was employed by the PGC it wouldn't make any difference in the way the herd was managed.

BTW, please feel free to ignore my posts if they annoy you. I'll do the same if your posts annoy me.

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

You know full well that you make it impossible to ignore you by hijacking nearly every thread where Pennsylvania people are involved.
Of course, the few times you've tried to start your own thread directly, they've gone mostly ignored because we're all tired of your lies, spin and venom.

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

That is a nice theory ,but that's all it is. The truth is the 2003 antlerless harvest of 20,370, removed approx. 11,000 adult doe from the herd which means there would be around 17,000 fewer fawns in 2004. That is why you were seeing a lot fewer fawns. Since Breeding rates did not increase as the herd was reduced that means the 2003 herd was not above the MSY carrying capacity ,so the herd crashed from over harvesting doe, not because of lack of food or low fawn production.
Actually,the PGC is still calculating the DPSM estimates based harvest estimates and that is what they use to establish antlerless allocations. They only use forest health to establish the effects of reducing the herd. If that wasn't true they would still be trying to reduce the herd even more in 2F and 2G where the forest health is rated poor.
The PGC specifically stated that the doe study harvest results did not represent the harvest rate of the rest of the WMU. They are also claiming the low harvest rates are keeping the herd stable in 2G so it is quite likely there are only 12 PSDPSM in 2G.
You did not answer my question regarding what the antlered /antlerless harvest ratio is needed to keep the herd stable. It is obvious that the harvest has to equal recruitment , but that doesn't tell you what the antlered to antlerless ratio should be.

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

My comment:
Your response:

Your response does nothing more then prove just how clueless you really are on the subject.
You claim that very little of the state has or ever did have habitat incapable of supporting more deer through the times of adverse conditions and that is purely incorrect. The most recent habitat evaluations, obtained after several years of reduced deer populations actually prove that the deer food across this state is still very fragile toward supporting the current deer numbers let alone even more deer.

Here are the habitat facts for people so see.

There are still four WMU that have a POOR habitat health rating. Those four units make up 23.9% of the land mass across this state. That is almost ¼ of the state where the habitat is still so poor it can hardly support the current deer numbers even through the periods of mild winters we have had the past few years.

Fifteen of the remaining eighteen units, or 67.0% of the state, have habitat that is only FAIR. Fair means that the habitat is only marginally able to support the current deer numbers. During the periods of adverse winter conditions that fair habitat might very well not support the current deer numbers or allow for adequate fawn recruitment the following spring since much of the better habitat wouldn’t be accessible to the deer if they get forced into wintering grounds habitats for extended time periods.

Only 7.3% of the state come out with a GOOD habitat evaluation.

That should be a very strong message to anyone that has even a small particle of functional brain power or common sense. Those with a lick of sense certainly should realize that the habitat in the VAST MAGORITY of Pennsylvania simply will not support more deer through adverse winter years and can only marginally support the current deer numbers through even the mild winter years we have experienced the past couple of years.
Herd health and the habitat are two totally separate evaluations because you can have good herd health on even marginal habitat during ideal winter condition periods like we have experienced the past two years. That certainly doesn’t mean everything is ok or that the habitat will support more deer through those harsh winter years though. When the habitat really will support more winter deer the deer numbers will increase to match that improved habitat and it will be impossible for hunters to prevent them from increasing.

My comment:

Quote:

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"Nature will always limit the number of deer that can live without the regeneration"

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Your response:

Quote:

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Of course it will in cases of extremes. There are no indicators that has been the case over most of the state, yet much to the contrary.

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Ok, at least you are acknowledging that nature controls populations in the extreme cases. Harsh winters have proven time and again to be just the extreme that does cause deer to reduce their own numbers. Besides winter mortality of existing deer harsh winters have also been documented to cause as much as 92.9% of the next year’s fawn crop to die within days of being born. That failure to recruit fawns during a year causes a significant reduction in the deer population. The deer numbers will then only increase again with good habitat and during good environmental conditions. That is exactly what happened with deer population declines pretty nearly all across this state just a few years ago.

Your comments:

Quote:

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Im not the one who "thinks" they have it all figured out. I just know a tall tale when Im told it. To insinuate we needed statewide carpet bombing which is exactly what we got, and immense reduction even in the best areas of the state at times as much as 50-60%, in areas of low human conflict and habitat that never rated poor, in the worst areas of the state taken to rock bottom and all areas in between felt the wrath of the pgc slaughter and some can make excuses till blue in the face, but many areas were overdone severely, and others, no reduction was warranted in the first place. I know youve been around these debates on a few different message boards for some time now, and I know you are aware of the influence audubon, timber industry and others have had on the deer program. While you'll never admit its the "driving force" behind the program, because those are good enough reasons for most to agree with "staying the course".

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The affects of Nature most certainly aren’t a tall tale; they are reality though and that seems to be something a lot of people refuse to accept or deal with.
We didn’t have any carpet bombing either, every unit was managed differently based on the facts the deer and habitat within that provided. I already pointed out that the habitat on over 90% of this state were sending a very clear message that they couldn’t support the continuous increase of the deer population through anything but ideal conditions.

Your insistence that something other then doing what was best for the wise and responsible management of the resources of this state is another positive indicator of your being clueless of the facts of reality. There is no conspiracy, just good common sense management based on the facts provided by the resources.

Your comments:

Quote:

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I agree with "sound scientific management" in principal. Currently the "practice" has quite a few divets, and the reason has nothing to do with science, but everything to do with who is on the boc and others making the decisions.

Rebuild pgc using "hunter friendly" biologists who actually care about the sport and Im sure "scientific management" would STILL BE scientific management, but Id lay a wager it would NOT mirror this current plan. Many other states do have such a "hunter friendly" system in place and NONE are following pgcs "lead". Thats because while Pgc thinks they are in the lead, they are actually so far behind, theyve been lapped.

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It might be true that deer management in Pennsylvania is behind the times. If it is behind the times, or other states, it is only because we had far too many times in the past when the Board of Commissioners listened to the demands of clueless hunters and Politian’s instead of doing what the professions knewto bethe best things for the future of both the resources and the hunters. Those benefits would also have benefited the clueless if we could just do as the deer and habitat have repeatedly proven to be the right and responsible thing to do. But, to many people, like you have always stood in the way of having the best possible management in this state. When you want see what the real problem is just look in the mirror, you and your attitide are a large part of the problem.

R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
 

The current forest habitat surveys do not measure habitat health, they only measure forest health based on the regeneration of the existing canopy. Forest health in 5C is rated poor but the habitat is excellent and can definitely support a lot more deer than the PGC will allow. Winterkill is almost non-existent and the deer can survive even the harshest winters because the they don't depend on browse to survive under the most extreme conditions which only last for a few weeks at most.

Furthermore, no state manages their herd based on the most extreme winter conditions . All herds are managed based on the average weather conditions rather than on the extremes, including the PA herd.