|
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
That is a nice theory ,but that's all it is. The truth is the 2003 antlerless harvest of 20,370, removed approx. 11,000 adult doe from the herd which means there would be around 17,000 fewer fawns in 2004. That is why you were seeing a lot fewer fawns. Since Breeding rates did not increase as the herd was reduced that means the 2003 herd was not above the MSY carrying capacity ,so the herd crashed from over harvesting doe, not because of lack of food or low fawn production. Wesaw fewer fawns because they died shortly after they were born. That might be an unproven theory in your eyes, but based on facts provided by the real deer within the unit we are talking about. Therefore, I suspect it is a pretty realistic theory. You are wrong about the breeding rates not improving in the unit too. That has always been one of your flim-flam tactics too. You keep trying to use statewide data and apply it to all areas of the state, that is just plain wrong and even you know that. Maybe that is why the USP is so far out in left field too, they use too much of your twisted data and thinking in their arguments and law suits. Actually,the PGC is still calculating the DPSM estimates based harvest estimates and that is what they use to establish antlerless allocations. They only use forest health to establish the effects of reducing the herd. If that wasn't true they would still be trying to reduce the herd even more in 2F and 2G where the forest health is rated poor. You are full of crap. Estimated deer densities are not released to the public or used for ANY management decisions. The PGC specifically stated that the doe study harvest results did not represent the harvest rate of the rest of the WMU. They are also claiming the low harvest rates are keeping the herd stable in 2G so it is quite likely there are only 12 PSDPSM in 2G. Your speculative deer numbers for unit 2G are very laughable though for those that actually have been to the unit in recent times though there might be a few totally habitat depressed areas with populations that low. You did not answer my question regarding what the antlered /antlerless harvest ratio is needed to keep the herd stable. It is obvious that the harvest has to equal recruitment , but that doesn't tell you what the antlered to antlerless ratio should be. The USP needs to do their own research and come up with their own numbers if they want to file law suits. You are on your own for coming up with the right numbers. R.S.Bodenhorn |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 There are still four WMU that have a POOR habitat health rating. Those four units make up 23.9% of the land mass across this state. That is almost ¼ of the state where the habitat is still so poor it can hardly support the current deer numbers even through the periods of mild winters we have had the past few years. Furthermore, no state manages their herd based on the most extreme winter conditions . All herds are managed based on the average weather conditions rather than on the extremes, including the PA herd. Forest health is the deer food even if some people don’t understand how it works in the natural world or deer management objectives and realities. Winter kill of adult deer is not the important, or limiting, factor in deer populations. The limiting factor is when you don’t recruit a reasonable fawn crop following a hard winter. Without surviving fawns you are out of the deer business. Those fawns that don’t survive because mom didn’t have enough food through the winter and spring are winter mortality just the same as if buzzards were out there feeding on them in the spring. You are absolutely full of crap about states not managing for extreme winters too. Any state that doesn’t is not managing their deer or their harvests. That is pretty much what Pennsylvania was doing during those years we cut the allocations back in the late 1990’s. We got away with it for several years only because we had a run of good mast crops and mild winters for about six consecutive years. But, it didn’t last and we got caught with way to many deer for the environmental conditions with those couple of hard winters a few years ago. We started harvesting more deer but it was already too little too late to avoid the natural herd reduction that results of having too many deer for too long. It just doesn’t matter how good the habitat is on the ridges and plateaus during those hard winters. The only habitat that matters then is what is in the wintering grounds. The habitat on the ridges and plateaus is just as inaccessible to the deer when there is deep snow as if it were on the moon. Nor does it matter how much food the deer have in the good habitat before the winter, if those winter grounds will not support the entire deer population for those two or three harsh winter months those deer that don’t get enough food die and the others stop sending nutrients to the fawns they are carrying to keep from dying. Those are facts that you and the USP just refuse to accept. Probably because you don’t want to accept the facts. But sticking your head and sand doesn’t change the facts, it only limits your knowledge of the facts that already surround you. R.S. Bodenhorn |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
Here is a quote from the 2006-2007 AWR .
"Population changes (λs) for most WMUs exceeded 1.00 from 2005 to 2006 based on preliminary population estimates for 2006 (Table 8). Increases in some WMUs from 2005 to 2006 likely resulted from an increase in antlered deer harvest. Whether this increase is due to higher deer populations or change in antlered harvest rate is not known at this time. Following the 2007-08 hunting seasons, antlered deer harvest datassessment can be made. " And here is what you have to say about population estimates. You are full of crap. Estimated deer densities are not released to the public or used for ANY management decisions. Nope and I am not going to play any of your numbers games either since you are one of the ones using numbers in an effort to build laws suits for the USP. You are wrong about the breeding rates not improving in the unit too |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
RSB, your view are "extreme" to say the least. The only thing your post lacks is a "grim reaper" icon standing in the background and some grim background music.:D And thats even AFTER our extreme reduction!! I dont know how we ever had deer survive a day when we had 1.5 mil.(LOL)
Pgc's data disagrees with about 90% of what you say. Perhaps you should use PGcs new "ask the biologist" feature, read some of the more recent annual reports...Then get back to us. My guess is you will feel quite foolish once you read the actual data then reread what much of what you've posted. The herd slaughter was initiated thanks to STRONG input from a few extreme anti-deer outside interests. Its pretty rough to support a plan when pgc's OWN DATA doesnt support it. I used to think perhaps most of pgcs data was 90% made up. I found I was mistaken. If they were to lie about the numbers etc. Theyd certainly have done a good enough job to at least SUPPORT THE PROGRAM and the predictions and promises they'd made since day one. SInce thats not the case, I guess they are either telling the truth about much of the data, or just not very good at messaging it.(LOL) |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
Bluebird, ive seen so many contradictions stated by pgc and their data contridicting other data, Im sure a person could writea very thick book on the topic. Im sure it would be a more beneficial book than the umpteen different pamphlets pgc printed, all basically saying the same thing - Deer bad. OUr money at work for us!(LOL) And they want MORE?
|
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
I would be happy if we could just get a few outdoor writers across the state to point out the contradictions and how the plan has failed to produce the predicted results. Unfortunately, few if any writers will challenge the PGC ,so the vast majority of hunters have no idea how badly the plan has failed.
|
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
ORIGINAL: Cornelius08 RSB, your view are "extreme" to say the least. The only thing your post lacks is a "grim reaper" icon standing in the background and some grim background music.:D And thats even AFTER our extreme reduction!! I dont know how we ever had deer survive a day when we had 1.5 mil.(LOL) Pgc's data disagrees with about 90% of what you say. Perhaps you should use PGcs new "ask the biologist" feature, read some of the more recent annual reports...Then get back to us. My guess is you will feel quite foolish once you read the actual data then reread what much of what you've posted. The herd slaughter was initiated thanks to STRONG input from a few extreme anti-deer outside interests. Its pretty rough to support a plan when pgc's OWN DATA doesnt support it. I used to think perhaps most of pgcs data was 90% made up. I found I was mistaken. If they were to lie about the numbers etc. Theyd certainly have done a good enough job to at least SUPPORT THE PROGRAM and the predictions and promises they'd made since day one. SInce thats not the case, I guess they are either telling the truth about much of the data, or just not very good at messaging it.(LOL) But, guess what it was you USP members and supporters that caused it in the first place. And if you have your way it will be even worse in the future. No the PGC professionals don’t disagree with what I have to say or post, either. Nor do I have to go on line and post on the “ask the biologist.” I have a direct line to them where I can talk face to face with them on a regular bases or call them on the phone when I need to ask a question. In fact I was just at a meeting with them a few weeks ago that totally dedicated to deer management and the related data. R.S. Bodenhorn |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
The “grim reaper” of deer populations (harsh winter affects without supporting food conditions) already came to Pennsylvania. |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
Here is a quote from the 2006-2007 AWR . "Population changes (λs) for most WMUs exceeded 1.00 from 2005 to 2006 based on preliminary population estimates for 2006 (Table 8). Increases in some WMUs from 2005 to 2006 likely resulted from an increase in antlered deer harvest. Whether this increase is due to higher deer populations or change in antlered harvest rate is not known at this time. Following the 2007-08 hunting seasons, antlered deer harvest datassessment can be made. " And here is what you have to say about population estimates. I know the answer to the question , but i wanted to see if you knew the answer and obviously you don't. But, I wasn't disappointed since no one associated with the PGC seems to know the answer. So if I am so wrong, why didn't fawn breeding rates increase to around 40% like in 5C ,where the forest health is also rated poor and where we have almost 3 times as many DPSM as in 2G? Now wouldn’t a person capable of using logic sort of think that the forest regeneration evaluation would be less influential where there is a good mix of agricultural land in the over all picture? I suppose that too is an example of the UPS mixed up and twisted thought processes. R.S. Bodenhorn |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
Actually your comment and post is just your twisted lack of understanding about how the deer estimated numbers are and aren’t used in the management program. Now wouldn’t a person capable of using logic sort of think that the forest regeneration evaluation would be less influential where there is a good mix of agricultural land in the over all picture And wouldn't one think the PGC experts would recognize that fact also, instead of applying the same standards to the areas with the best soils and best habitat compared to areas like 2F and 2G with the worst soils and poorest habitat. Why do you waste so much time talking about the USP when the PGC will have no problem refuting their extreme claims about the effects of HR and predators? Also, I doubt they have anything to challenge the PGC's harvest estimates or their population estimates. Personally ,I would think the PGC has more to fear from a truly independent audit than from the USP.. |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
Gawd I'm glad I live in a state that has all OTC tags.
 They damn near give away doe tags here, $24 for the first one, and a nearly unlimted supply of additional tags at $15 each. We also have no state bag limit for antlerless, no antler restrictions, and no zone management. |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
Whatever works for ya Kevin! Seems to work ok where you are. Seeing as you dont have 900,000 deer hunters like Pa.
When considering we DONT have unlimited tags over the counter, you guys harvested about 76,000 antlerless in 2006, and in 06, we harvested three times that amount.... Try having 900,000 hunters harvesting 226,270 antlerless per year, and that, not even on one of our highest, andsee how well that works fer y'all's deer herd and huntingin Indy.;) ...or how well having unlimited otc tags would work here![X(] |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
"The “grim reaper” of deer populations (harsh winter affects without supporting food conditions) already came to Pennsylvania. That is what has all of you USP people so twisted up in the first place."
Sorry. No uspguy here. Norare mostof the hundreds of thousands that dont support the buffoonery afflicting our deer herd. The "deer grim reaper" is a bit extreme these days. The reaper wants his friends at audubon to be happy, have lots and lots of trillium, a bird in every bush, marketable timber on every square inch and wears green, and collectively sits at Elmerton Avenue Pa. You arent representative of Pgc, despite being an employee. Your job isnt deer mangagement, but law enforcement, and it shows. Study the pgc annual reports. You've apparently never taken the time, and within is contained much data thatshows the err of your ways. You are doing people a great disservice by trying to speak as an expert on a topic of which you simply are unprepared to do so. Iunderstand you free to express your eco-extreme views, but some semblance of accuracy should be strived for. |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
ORIGINAL: Cornelius08 "The “grim reaper” of deer populations (harsh winter affects without supporting food conditions) already came to Pennsylvania. That is what has all of you USP people so twisted up in the first place." Sorry. No uspguy here. Norare mostof the hundreds of thousands that dont support the buffoonery afflicting our deer herd. The "deer grim reaper" is a bit extreme these days. The reaper wants his friends at audubon to be happy, have lots and lots of trillium, a bird in every bush, marketable timber on every square inch and wears green, and collectively sits at Elmerton Avenue Pa. You arent representative of Pgc, despite being an employee. Your job isnt deer mangagement, but law enforcement, and it shows. Study the pgc annual reports. You've apparently never taken the time, and within is contained much data thatshows the err of your ways. You are doing people a great disservice by trying to speak as an expert on a topic of which you simply are unprepared to do so. Iunderstand you free to express your eco-extreme views, but some semblance of accuracy should be strived for. How absolutely hilarious that you and bluebird can have the audacity to criticize RSB's qualifications to post about deer management. The posts he has taken the time to put up here are basically saying the same things that game managers and biologists all over this country have been saying. We know that Bluebird2 has no qualifications in wildlife management whatsoever. You're new here, or your screen name suggests it anywayso why don't you enlighten us on your qualifications that make you an expert and therefore qualified to question RSB's views? |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
We know that Bluebird2 has no qualifications in wildlife management whatsoever. |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
"How absolutely hilarious that you and bluebird can have the audacity to criticize RSB's qualifications to post about deer management."
How absolutely hilariousthat you actually claim he has any. He is aWCO. Not a biologist. Though he disagrees with the pgc biologist accumulated data. If youtook a gander at thedata, as the rest of us do,and did so objectively instead of worryingabout discrediting me based on nothing, maybe you would be able to agree or at leastimplement a realistic rebuttal. As I said, Hehasno more deer management qualifications than probably most others on here. Since you dont know mine, and I dont feel in a sharing mood, your opinion is unbased anyway. "The posts he has taken the time to put up here are basically saying the same things that game managers and biologists all over this country have been saying." Ha ha ha. Good one. Not one state in the nation has gone to our extremes and none are going to. We are pointed at as "what not to do if you want to retain hunters, and have a healthy deer herd". Only biologists that would be even close to saying we need the things such as RSBs extreme views are the biologists that Audubon hason its staff... And if ya do a websearch, they'll be more than happy to say WORD FOR WORD what we should do with our deer management.... Then compare to what we've done since their input... Unless you are a pgc employee, friend or family member, it just may make you raise an eyebrow. "You're new here, or your screen name suggests it anywayso why don't you enlighten us on your qualifications that make you an expert and therefore qualified to question RSB's views? " Yes, I am new here. NIce of you to notice. I have just as much if not more qualification that RSB, and clearly more familiar with Pgcs pertinent data as well. Thats all you need know. Im not here to prove anything to those few extremists that arent gonna listen to anyone esle anyway... Just speaking my mind. Each of our words speak for themselves as do the facts presented. You need to worry less about my qualifications and more time spent searching for some shred of evidence that actually backs rsb and apparently your position. Ive looked over the data for years and cannot find any, but much to the contrary. |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
Wildlife management and biology is actually a pretty big part of a WCO's qualifications.I know R.S.B. personally and have spentmany hours with him in the field.His knowledge and experience is far beyond what most on here have.R.S.B works with foresters,biologists and land managers on a regular basis with issues concerning deer management.I'm sure some of that knowledge rubs off on him.I'm curious as to why you feel you have more qualifications than him.If it makes you feel any better,I kinda thought he was a quack at first.After I got to know him however,I realized that he was alot more knowlegable and about as dedicated as they come.
|
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
There is no doubt RSB has a lot of knowledge and experience and is extremely dedicated. Unfortunately his inherent bias prevents him from being objective and applying his knowledge and experience in a more constructive manner. His failure to admit that forest health is not indicative of habitat health is just one example of how his bias effects his opinions.
|
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
ORIGINAL: Cornelius08 "How absolutely hilarious that you and bluebird can have the audacity to criticize RSB's qualifications to post about deer management." How absolutely hilariousthat you actually claim he has any. He is aWCO. Not a biologist. Though he disagrees with the pgc biologist accumulated data. If youtook a gander at thedata, as the rest of us do,and did so objectively instead of worryingabout discrediting me based on nothing, maybe you would be able to agree or at leastimplement a realistic rebuttal. As I said, Hehasno more deer management qualifications than probably most others on here. Since you dont know mine, and I dont feel in a sharing mood, your opinion is unbased anyway. "The posts he has taken the time to put up here are basically saying the same things that game managers and biologists all over this country have been saying." Ha ha ha. Good one. Not one state in the nation has gone to our extremes and none are going to. We are pointed at as "what not to do if you want to retain hunters, and have a healthy deer herd". Only biologists that would be even close to saying we need the things such as RSBs extreme views are the biologists that Audubon hason its staff... And if ya do a websearch, they'll be more than happy to say WORD FOR WORD what we should do with our deer management.... Then compare to what we've done since their input... Unless you are a pgc employee, friend or family member, it just may make you raise an eyebrow. "You're new here, or your screen name suggests it anywayso why don't you enlighten us on your qualifications that make you an expert and therefore qualified to question RSB's views? " Yes, I am new here. NIce of you to notice. I have just as much if not more qualification that RSB, and clearly more familiar with Pgcs pertinent data as well. Thats all you need know. Im not here to prove anything to those few extremists that arent gonna listen to anyone esle anyway... Just speaking my mind. Each of our words speak for themselves as do the facts presented. You need to worry less about my qualifications and more time spent searching for some shred of evidence that actually backs rsb and apparently your position. Ive looked over the data for years and cannot find any, but much to the contrary. RSB and the rest of the PGC have virtually every wildlife management entity, both public and private,standing theirpractices while you and a few others grab a few stats and embarass yourself by twisting em out of context and declaring that all the experts who do this for a livingmust be wrong. It would be funny if it weren't so pathetic. |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
RSB and the rest of the PGC have virtually every wildlife management entity, both public and private, standing their practices while you and a few others grab a few stats and embarass yourself by twisting em out of context and declaring that all the experts who do this for a living must be wrong. Can you name one state at the similar latitude as PA that manages their herd in any WMU at 12 PSDPSM? Can you name one state that intentionally manages their herd at considerably below the MSY carrying capacity? |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 RSB and the rest of the PGC have virtually every wildlife management entity, both public and private,standing theirpractices while you and a few others grab a few stats and embarass yourself by twisting em out of context and declaring that all the experts who do this for a livingmust be wrong. Can you name one state at the similar latitude as PA that manages their herd in any WMU at 12 PSDPSM? Can you name one state that intentionally manages their herd at considerably below the MSY carrying capacity? I'm not taking the bait and spending hours trying unspin your distortions. Why don't you tell us what professional game management entity disputes Pa's present management plan? I'm willing to bet you can't provide even one link where any game manager condemns Pa's current practices. You'll be hard pressed to find any agency who hasn't openly applauded PA's efforts. |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
"I'm willing to bet you can't provide even one link where any game manager condemns Pa's current practices."
and I'll triple that bet if you can find ONE link saying anything about anyoneunbiased outside of Pgc dcnr or audubon who has said, yes this is how it must be. Noone has and noone is gonna go unpaid and analyzewether or not our allocations are"appropriate" or if we can or cant have more deerand where. There is such a lack of evidence that this "plan" is based on anything more than extreme minority demand, that its been necessary for Pgc to be sued by sportsmen, petitioned endlessly, government crackdown (preventing increase in fees) and impending audit... If anything were cut and dried, these things wouldnt be going on. |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
Why don't you tell us what professional game management entity disputes Pa's present management plan? I'm willing to bet you can't provide even one link where any game manager condemns Pa's current practices. You'll be hard pressed to find any agency who hasn't openly applauded PA's efforts. But here are a few examples of where other agencies have recognized a problem and made changes to correct. Ark. reduced their herd and implemented ARs just like PA. then they closed antlerless season in several WMU's and voted to repeal ARs in 2 out of 3 districts. Miss. implemented ARs and found that it reduced average rack size of 2.5 buck across all regions. As a result they implemented spread restrictions and allowed the harvest spike bucks. Wisc. manages their herd in agricultural areas at 30 DPSM while PA's goals for 5C was 6 DPSM and 5B was 5 DPSM. WMU118 in Mich. repealed ARs after 4 years. |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
ORIGINAL: Cornelius08 "I'm willing to bet you can't provide even one link where any game manager condemns Pa's current practices." and I'll triple that bet if you can find ONE link saying anything about anyoneunbiased outside of Pgc dcnr or audubon who has said, yes this is how it must be. Noone has and noone is gonna go unpaid and analyzewether or not our allocations are"appropriate" or if we can or cant have more deerand where. There is such a lack of evidence that this "plan" is based on anything more than extreme minority demand, that its been necessary for Pgc to be sued by sportsmen, petitioned endlessly, government crackdown (preventing increase in fees) and impending audit... If anything were cut and dried, these things wouldnt be going on. Funny how you had to add that qualifier "this is how it MUST be" Including such an inflexible qualifier makes your challenge meaningless. Oh and this one ..... I never saw a challenge. I simply stated its none of your business.:D |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
Doug, I believe rsb to be somewhatknowledgable. I agree with bluebird also,his views are extreme and biased. That effect how he uses the knowledge. And as far as knowledgegoes, as I said, there are someof us who know as much or more and its extremely evident.At any rate, he DOESNT have the knowledge level tocompletely counter the pgc biologists data.
"As I expected you ducked the challenge of your qualifications proving yourself to be just one more frustratednimrod who didn't see enough deer last season so you therefore need to find someone to blame. " I never saw a challenge. I simply stated its none of your business.:D "RSB and the rest of the PGC have virtually every wildlife management entity, both public and private,standing theirpractices while you and a few others grab a few stats and embarass yourself by twisting em out of context and declaring that all the experts who do this for a livingmust be wrong." The expertsdata at pgcarent wrong. Rsb is.The current deer levels arent because anyone is right or wrong about anything. They are catering to interests other than the hunter. Plain and simple. No conspiracy. Just the facts. "It would be funny if it weren't so pathetic." When pgcs plan is being challenged and no logical retort is available, that iswhen that linecomes out the most, so I guess Im doing a pretty good job. Thanks for corroborating what I already knew.[&:] |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
"Why would the game managers in other states dispute or condemn the PGC plan ,when they have enough problems managing their own herds?"
Its quite simple bluebird. They agree in principal and with the rock bottom basics... As do most of us. Do you think we shouldkeep the herd within the habitats capabilities? Of course Do you think we should strive for a healthy herd? Yep. But when we go far above these basicsto cater to eco-wieners, as well as fortimber cashetc., then I dont see that as something "peer aproved". NOr the necessity to hold usso low as to have arediculously low herd, and a 109k buck harvest when none of the health indicators have improved in years. But, oh...The report system is peer reviewed and the general goals approvedso everything single other detail has to be too right? WRONG. The most important issues arent even addressed by unbiased"outside peers". |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
Yup, you and Bluebird HAVE been drinking the same koolaid!
Game managers allover the country have applauded PA's courageand are watching closely as they adopt similar practices. None ever said that PA would get it 100% right the first time but all agreed that it was a good start. 6 years in and none from the scientific community have come up with any serious criticism. Oh, we know.they're biased LOL ! The onlydetractors come from the USP types and their misinformed, uneducated "the sky is falling" mentality. |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
":Including such an inflexible qualifier makes your challenge meaningless. "
Meaningful or not is open todebate. Justlike yoursetting of the parametersof what is and isnt. But its doesnt matter a lick, as I see it, it was one completely meaningless challenge youpresentedwhich wasnt in the least sincere in the first place, because the subject of the challenge wasnt based in any rational reality. Since you know the person or organization who could make that judgement call (good or bad)you asked for doesnt even exist because the entire program with all its details data etc. have NOT been audited, and to do so would be a very lengthy very expensive undertaking. Thanks to pgcs continued mismanagement, I hear one is in the works. Pgc is an answer to nearly noone independent agency, and other states have their own deer herds to manage. They arent paid to in depthaudit pas deer management. |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
"The onlydetractors come from the USP and their misinformed, uneducated "the sky is falling" mentality. "
Thats funny. Im not usp and I know many others who arent as well. And none of the support the failed deer programs direction. Nor do the most of the 900000 deer hunters of our state or most legislators who are "pro-hunting". If you go through our entire wmu, you might be able to find enough people that support pgc to count on your fingers and toes, but as of yet, I havent. If you doubt the lack of pgc support, you might wanna see the poll on Sportsman portal where like 68% support pgc being sued. You might also see the lack of interest the hunting license petition got! (LOL) Though to add them up, you gotta get rid of "Mickey mouse", Donald duck and all the various hundred or so sports stars I saw listed.:eek: |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
ORIGINAL: Cornelius08 ":Including such an inflexible qualifier makes your challenge meaningless. " Meaningful or not is open todebate. Justlike yoursetting of the parametersof what is and isnt. But its doesnt matter a lick, as I see it, it was one completely meaningless challenge youpresentedwhich wasnt in the least sincere in the first place, because the subject of the challenge wasnt based in any rational reality. Since you know the person or organization who could make that judgement call (good or bad)you asked for doesnt even exist because the entire program with all its details data etc. have NOT been audited, and to do so would be a very lengthy very expensive undertaking. Thanks to pgcs continued mismanagement, I hear one is in the works. Pgc is an answer to nearly noone independent agency, and other states have their own deer herds to manage. They arent paid to in depthaudit pas deer management. BTW I don't personally know RSB, I have never met himnor corresponded with him other than in this forum but I have known enough of his peers over the years to know thatWCO's are far more than just law enforcement personnel. |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
"the challenge was appropriate simply because you challenged RSB's credibility based on the fact he is from law enforcement and not a biologist."
I didnt challenge his credibility. I simply flatly stated it was no more thanmany others.... And thats a fact. I stated the obvious. Hes not a biologist. sorry you have a problem with that, maybe he can take some night classes? "I simply contend that you have no ground to challenge his observations as your qualifications to comment are far less than his." He has very few. I have as many or more. YOu have no proof of my knowledge level, my credentials or anything else. As for a "challenge" I challenge you to make one post that makes sense with no whining involved. This is getting tiresome.[:'(] "My challenge stands." And myrefusal stands. You arent talkingto a kid, though Im starting to believe I may be. Yourlack of acceptance of the word "no" is reminiscent of my 6 yr old nephew when he wantscandy andasks every five minutes. "Please prove that I'm wrong " You are wrong. I dont need proof. My posts speak for themselves. If the person making my posts were an unemployed vagrant, that wouldnt make them any less accurate. The facts are the facts. They prove themselves as posted. When something is as cut and dried when posted as saying 100-50=50, does it REALLY matter who made the deduction?(LOL) "when I say that if you can claim that RSBis notqualified to answer your claims then you have an obligation to demonstrate your qualificationsto dispute hisobservations. " I have no obligation to you or anyone else. Its not in my best interests to divulge my "qualifications". "BTW I don't personally know RSB, I have never met himnor corresponded with him other than in this forum but I have known enough of his peers over the years to know thatWCO's are far more than just law enforcement personnel. " Yes. Since their duties encompass more than simply catching poachers a I hear they are gonna fire the biologists since one of the wcos disagrees with their data of the last few years.[8D] |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
Btw, audubon and even some extreme antihunting groups utilize theirown like-minded biologists. The fact they are also qualified as any other biologist holding the same degree, that doesnt mean they should be managingour deer!!:eek: Just making the point anyone can be qualified. Just like pgcs new "enviro-extremist" biologists. Definately qualified. But not the first choice a state should hire if maintaining quality of hunting is any priority at all. OF course according to pgcs stated management goals, we can all see that it is not even on the list.
|
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
He has very few. I have as many or more. YOu have no proof of my knowledge level, my credentials or anything else. As for a "challenge" I challenge you to make one post that makes sense with no whining involved. This is getting tiresome.[:'(] And myrefusal stands. You arent talkingto a kid, though Im starting to believe I may be. Yourlack of acceptance of the word "no" is reminiscent of my 6 yr old nephew when he wantscandy andasks every five minutes. You are wrong. I dont need proof. My posts speak for themselves. If the person making my posts were an unemployed vagrant, that wouldnt make them any less accurate. The facts are the facts. They prove themselves as posted. On second thought, ARE you an unemployed vagrant? I have no obligation to you or anyone else. Its not in my best interests to divulge my "qualifications". Yes. I hear they are gonna fire the biologists since one of the wcos disagrees with their data of the last few years.[8D] |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
is it to late to send out for a doe permit ?
|
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
Waa.. Who are you cornelius! I gotta know WHO ARE YOU! WHAT ARE YOUR CREDENTIALS AAAAAAAHHH!
He he he. Sorry, but thats about what Im seeing from my end.:D Rob, depends on the wmu. Some are sold out, a few arent. Some dmap permits might also be available. |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
That one is a real gem! Obviously RSB agrees with the biologists. I can see that you're cofused. Maybe I can help. The only data RSB disputed was YOUR and Bluebirds spin on that data. |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
Rsb also said the herd health was poor across much of the state. Look at the latest available annual report that I posted previously. PGC biologists disagree.
No spin possible. The words in the far right wmu health column are either POOR, FAIR or GOOD. Lemme know how many "poor" you see! (LOL)...hint. ZERO. |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 That one is a real gem! Obviously RSB agrees with the biologists. I can see that you're cofused. Maybe I can help. The only data RSB disputed was YOUR and Bluebirds spin on that data. Nope the Game Commission biologist and I are not in disagreement nor am I disputing the data they use. The difference is that I know what the data and studies mean while you do not. The advantage that I have is that besides having access to a lot more data then you have I also have a direct line to the people that do the research and write the reports. I talk with them either face to face or by phone anytime I have a question about the data or what it means. Besides I have no agenda to do anything beyond helping people toward a better understanding of sound resource management principles and practices so both the resources and the hunters can have the best possible future. Though you might think I have no qualifications to speak on the subject, beyond law enforcement, I assure you that you are wrong. I have not only been very heavily involved with numerous deer and habitat research projects for over three decades but also pretty highly trained in the wildlife management field, to include talking about the deer/habitat relationships. Your attack on my qualifications was nothing more then a pitiful attempt to discredit what I have to say because it proves you don’t know what you are talking about. R.S.Bodenhorn |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
ORIGINAL: Cornelius08 Rsb also said the herd health was poor across much of the state. Look at the latest available annual report that I posted previously. PGC biologists disagree. No spin possible. The words in the far right wmu health column are either POOR, FAIR or GOOD. Lemme know how many "poor" you see! (LOL)...hint. ZERO. Nope that isn’t correct at all. I’m not sure if you are just confused or if you have taken on one or Beenthere/Bluebird’s flim-flam tactics. I did not say the herd health was poor across much of the state I said the FOREST REGENERATION HEALTH (read that as deer food) is POOR across the units that make up 23.9% of the state. I also said that the FOREST health was only fair (that is marginal) across another 67.0% of the state. As for herd health the most recent data indicated the herd health was within the targeted range in 19 of the 22 units last year. That certainly doesn’t mean all is well though. It simply means that the adult does had a reproductive rate that was with in the target range following a couple years with no winter snows. Those units being above target very might not hold at that range following a harsh winter. It is also very likely that the target range is presently set too low since it was based on the conditions from the years when we were carrying way to many deer over much of the state. It would not surprise me to see those target ranges increase in the future. As for your comment about how the WMU are rated that in its self proves you are either confused or intentionally trying to mislead people since the good, fair and poor designations are only used in the forest health evaluation and not in the herd health evaluations. Here it is for anyone who want to check it out. http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/deer/pdf/antlerless_allocation_handouts.pdf R.S. Bodenhorn |
RE: Pa doe permits.. anyone know the deadline?
Nope the Game Commission biologist and I are not in disagreement nor am I disputing the data they use. Therefore, there are very valid reasons for questioning you qualifications. |
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:45 AM. |
Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.