PA GOBBLER

I am w/ you, cut cut and cut. But what gets me is that they do a very small cut then put up the fences. [:@] I can see doing that where the deer numbers are high but notnow w/ the low numbers on puplic land

PA GOBBLER

you aint kidding, my dog is still having problems w/ the grouse.

DougE

PA Gobbler,the reason they have to fence,even at low densities is because in poor habitat,it takes very few deer to ruin any regeneration.Most of the damage is done during the winter when deer rely on browse.Deer need about 5 lbs a day to keep wait on and they're very picky eaters.They eat what's good for them at what's pallatable first.When you have poor habitat and make a cut,deer quickly key in on it.Around here,they actually are drawn to the sound of chainsaws and often start hitting the topswhile the loggers are still cutting.I can show exampleafter example of clearcuts that were ruined by deer,even though hunters claim these areas have no deer.

More logging would be great for the near future but then we'll be in the same situation we're in now.Clearcuts only benefit deer for about 15 yearsForests in the seedling sapling stage can easily support 60+ dpsm but in about 15 years when it turns to pole timber,there's virtually no benefit and the carrying capacity dominished to about 5 dpsm.That's exactly what's happened top alot of areas.Unfortuantely,timber stays in the pole timber stage much longer than the seedling sapling stage.

The plan is to cut 1% of the timber each year.That guarantees that we'll always have a certain amount of timber in the early succession stage.Let's say they bumped it up to 5% a year.That would mean all of our forests would be cut over the next 20 year.Things would be great during that time but in about 15 years,most of the timber would be in the pole stage and the carrying capacity would plummet and it would stay that way for a long,long time.

Fencing is bad for everyone,including the deer.Fortunately,now that the deer density is down,they are starting to have timber sales without the need to fence.This is the first year inmany yearsthat Moshannon state forest is having timber sales without having to fence them and it's all because of less deer.It's really important that people realize how bad low deer numbers can still impact poor habitat.The PGC is trying to make sure we get out of that mess and that's important for thefuture of wildlife and hunting.The sooner hunters understand that,the better off we'll all be.Killing does isn't about greed.It's doing what needs to be done.

This situation is very complicated and it is a science.Go out and spenda day with a foester from DCNR and it will boggle your mind what goes into marking,selling and cutting a piece of timber.There's also certain retraints that they are beyond their control that they have to abide by.They don't hate the deer and want them all gone.A certain amount of deer is actually necessary to keep a balance because deer browse many of the species thatare in direct competition with what they're trying to grow.However,the evidence is obvious and indisputable that deer are the number one factor effecting the habitat in not only Pa but many other states as well.

PA GOBBLER

Doug- at first you said at low numbers they have to put up fences then you said this year for Mosh they won't have to because of the low numbers. So is the DCNR doing the wrong thing? What is the PGC stance on this, are they going to use fences on low deer number cut areas?
Starting last spring they started cutting the area I hunt. They made one cut then moved over about 500yrds and did a 2nd cut. I happened to see the guy doing the cutting and talked to him, he told me that they are doing a 3rd cut also when the 2nd cut is done. I asked him about the fence and he said that he is contracted out so he is not sure. This area has a lot of fields very close to the cuts, it does have one very small clover plot- est. 1 acre. They did not touch it this past year and the plot was in bad shape.
I understand that the deer will eat a cut big time, but would it not be a good idea to maybe make some bigger food plots, in this area and maybe make some winter plots also. Maybe this will take off some of the pressure on the cuts. I see this at one of the largest farms in Pa, farm has too many deer but his browse is in pretty good shape also, because of the other food available. I understand that the questions would be how would they pay for that and I would think the money saved on the fence would be a good start. Good idea or bad??
thanks for the input

rybohunter

I’m no forester, but am trying to learn all I can.
From an economic view, how does selective cutting compare to clear cutting? It seems in my “local” areas many of the landowners have selective cuts done, this leaves the deer with incredible habitat. Now only 10 years have passed since the 1st cut, but there is still dense brush and browse available, and there are some pretty big trees that they could probably cut in another 5 years or so. Is selective cutting more feasible for small scale operations? You never seem to see that as an option for the state lands. I am just curious.

DougE

Pagobbler,Low numbers is a pretty subjective thing and means something different to different people.I consider low deer numbers tobe around 15 dpsm overwinter.That gives you right around 20 dpsm preseasonand most hunters you talk to that hunt at those densities start claiming there's no deer.The district forester for Moshannon state forest said they're owdd is righta round 8-9 dpsm in the areas where they aren't having to fence but that isn't the magic number every where.It also matter where a cut is done.Cut's on ridgetops do alot better because during winter when most of the damage occures,the deer tend to move down into the lower elevations and valleys.I can show you low lying areas that have no regeneration and excellent regeneration on the ridgtops just a short distance away.Deer in the mountainous regions effect regeneration differently than they do in the southern part of the state.In moshannon state forest,the habitat is so poor that deer numbers have to brought to an extremely low level in order to get adequate regeneration.

Food plots are another story.First of all,it's extremely expensive to build and maintain food plots in many state game lands.(over 3k per acre in mnay areas)In alot of cases,these lands were purchased cheaply because the ground was worthless for farming.On top of that,deer need bowse to make it through winters.Food plotsdo absolutely no good when there's a heavy snow cover.Deer need browse and it has to be high quality.If you look at what's growing in many places,it's worthless.Beech,striped and birch are not what deer need.As the habitat declines,you see more of these species and less of the preferred species.In turn what happens is these species out compete the preferred species and you're left with poor habitat with an extremely low carrying capacity.In short,you have to look at what browse is actually on that farm.Just because something is growing,doesn't mean it's beneficial.

rybohunter,I'm not a forester and forestry is an actual science.My advise would be top get with an actual forester and have them show you exactly what they do and why they do it.This is very complicated and different areas and different forest compostions respond differently to different forestrytreatments.Go on a few habitat tours and you'll gain alot of insight.

Alot of people mistake a select cut for a shelterwood cut.In areas where oak regeneration is preferred,they often come in and do a shelter wood cut before they do a larger scale cut.Oak seedling need light so they come in and just thin the area to get some advanced regeneration occuring.This is important because if they just came in and clearcut the area,other non-preferred species would quickly dominate theoak and drown them out.

This is all very complicatedand much of it is over my head.However,the guys in charge of managing the game and the habitat really do know what they're doing.Many of us don't likewhat has to be done to get there but it has to be done.Go out and see for yourself what they're doing and why they're doing it.You'll gain a much better understanding of the relationship deer play with the habitat and you'll become a much better hunter in the process.I guarantee it.

mikepsu54

A selective cut usually cuts the hardwoods.. Usually your oaks, cherry,maple, hickory, beach,walnut etc. They pick only these trees mostly. YOu are then left with a forest of green maple, pine trees, aspen, birch, witch hazel, hemlocks, and etc. These trees take over the forest because you open up the canopy and they quickly try to take up as much space as they can. IT is survival of the fittest. These trees dont produce mass crops like most of the hardwoods which makes it less than desirable habitat. The young saplings from the hardwoods will quickly die or grow slow since the lack of light. THe ideal thing is clearcutting. IT gives everything a fair shot. THe ideal of a good clear cutt is to rotate the cut every 15 years so you have a balance in your ecosystem. IF i had land though i would cut everything that wasnt a good mass producing tree. But that waymakes you no money.

mikepsu54

DOUGE sounds good i hunted black moshannon when i went to school, i seen few deer.n i found it hard to believe their was even 9 deer per square mile their. you can see forever and i never seen any deer, few. MAybe it was just the area that i hunted, but i quickly learned to find a different area to hunt.

rybohunter

Thanks for the help guys. I am going to try to make it to one of those tours this year. I always seem to have something going on when they schedule them. [&:]

The places I hunt were selective cut for cherry. That was the predominant tree. They didn't take many, if any oaks. I think they may have been too small still. The predominant species now are mostly tulip poplars, with some mixed in maple, ash, and oaks. And still a few cherries that were too small to cut. I'm figuring this was all done for money, not habitat improvement.

DougE

Mike,Good post.I agree with what you said but it all really depends on what the forest composition is.Approximately 40% of Pa is northern hardwoods which includes most of the trees you mentioned execept the oak.Oak is not part of northern hardwoods forest and it shouldn't be counted on to regnenerate in these areas.About 40% of Pa is make up of oak/hickory forests.In an oak hickory forest,the best method to ensure regeneration of oaks is to first go in and do a shelterwood cut to get some advanced oak regeneration going.This really is a science and it isn't as simple as going in and cutting everything in sight like so many think.

I was actually referring to Moshannon state forest not Black moshannon.I think it's actually the same district but the parts of Moshannon state forest I'm talking about are close to Parker dam.Your assessment about Black moshannon is right on the money.I can't even understand why people would expect areas like that to have alot of deer.