anyone in NY mad about the antler restrictions
08-27-2007, 06:59 PM
#71
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 7,208
RE: anyone in NY mad about the antler restrictions
No offense to you new york guys, but we've heard all this noisefrom the cynical gloom and doomers that WHINED TO HIGH HEAVEN in PA.
Every arguement, angle, &spin has been used a hundred times. Just deal with the regulation and move on. Adapt and keep hunting or quit. It's not the end of the world if you can't shoot your spiker each season. Once you see some results, it will be easier to take. Good luck.
Every arguement, angle, &spin has been used a hundred times. Just deal with the regulation and move on. Adapt and keep hunting or quit. It's not the end of the world if you can't shoot your spiker each season. Once you see some results, it will be easier to take. Good luck.
08-27-2007, 07:10 PM
#72
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Moravia NY USA
Posts: 2,164
RE: anyone in NY mad about the antler restrictions
Apparently you have not read much of the thread - many of the anti TM er's have listed many reasons some of the pro's ( like yourself) seldom counter.
We ask simply that if a major change is to come, there be some sound basis for it.
Steve
We ask simply that if a major change is to come, there be some sound basis for it.
Steve
08-27-2007, 07:15 PM
#73
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Caledonia, NY
Posts: 773
RE: anyone in NY mad about the antler restrictions
ORIGINAL: Airborneguy
Steve863,
What it comes down to is money... I spend a lot of money on hunting every year, thousands. I do it every weekend from September to January, and now switched to working midights so I can hunt certain areas right after work in the morning. It is economically infeasible for me to hunt in NY where I haven't tagged a deer in almost 10 years. Why bother? I make 3 trips in NY each year: opening day bow, gun, and usually one more weekend of rifle. I basically ONLY hunt NY because I still like to get my rifle out once a year or so.
MAYBE if I had private land, I would be there more, but considering I get to have practically free, poor-man's trophy hunts in NJ, why waste all the gas and time going to NY where everyone has already shot up everything in sight?
And yes, since I am not poor and dependant on venison for my diet, once I get a doe or two for the freezer, I am trophy hunting... and there is nothing wrong with that.
As far as hunting being easy anywhere, I have never heard anyone else say that except for some wall street people I know who like to take trips to Texas. I don't bait in Jersey because I hunt public land, so I lose out on that benefit. But, I scout and can actually decipher deer patterns there which they tend to follow... unlike public land in NY where no matter how much you scout, opening day is totally different because 25,000 orange suits are there for a few hours until the card games and drinking start.
Maybe I am looking to AR as a means to turn the public NY woods more into a hunting environment as opposed to the wild west shoot 'em up I see now. Maybe I am completely wrong with what I have seen over the years, including an actual shoot out 3 years ago between two guys with rifles at Mongaup in Sullivan County. But either way, NJ has been getting to bulk of this hunter's money for the last few years, which is a lot.
Steve863,
What it comes down to is money... I spend a lot of money on hunting every year, thousands. I do it every weekend from September to January, and now switched to working midights so I can hunt certain areas right after work in the morning. It is economically infeasible for me to hunt in NY where I haven't tagged a deer in almost 10 years. Why bother? I make 3 trips in NY each year: opening day bow, gun, and usually one more weekend of rifle. I basically ONLY hunt NY because I still like to get my rifle out once a year or so.
MAYBE if I had private land, I would be there more, but considering I get to have practically free, poor-man's trophy hunts in NJ, why waste all the gas and time going to NY where everyone has already shot up everything in sight?
And yes, since I am not poor and dependant on venison for my diet, once I get a doe or two for the freezer, I am trophy hunting... and there is nothing wrong with that.
As far as hunting being easy anywhere, I have never heard anyone else say that except for some wall street people I know who like to take trips to Texas. I don't bait in Jersey because I hunt public land, so I lose out on that benefit. But, I scout and can actually decipher deer patterns there which they tend to follow... unlike public land in NY where no matter how much you scout, opening day is totally different because 25,000 orange suits are there for a few hours until the card games and drinking start.
Maybe I am looking to AR as a means to turn the public NY woods more into a hunting environment as opposed to the wild west shoot 'em up I see now. Maybe I am completely wrong with what I have seen over the years, including an actual shoot out 3 years ago between two guys with rifles at Mongaup in Sullivan County. But either way, NJ has been getting to bulk of this hunter's money for the last few years, which is a lot.
That's one of the mostill-thought statements I have ever heard with hunting. Like any other group of people, there are some slobs, a large "average", and a few on the high-end of things. You don't seem to understand that.Worse yet, to lump NY huntersas you did is insulting.
I get that you want A/R. I don't agree with your reasons, nor do I agree with statewide A/R. But to resort to saying what you said about NY's huntersis below the belt.
08-27-2007, 09:13 PM
#74
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: cazenovia, NY USA
Posts: 2,973
RE: anyone in NY mad about the antler restrictions
Hey Phade -
Sure I realize Antler Restrictions is one tool that is possible in QDM. It in itself is not QDM - I do understand that - though people opposed to A/R often do not.
I support the idea if A/R, in lieu of a 3" antler minimum. I think it makes hunters be more sure of what they are taking, and helps to change the mindset of hunters, if they have to consider Antler points before pulling the trigger. Will yearling 7 pointers get taken..........YEP - and it will be legal and the hunter should get a pat on the back for making a good decision, he or she might be more proud of that seven point than 6 years of 4points in a row.
The way I see it, the law would "protect" 25% - 50% of yearling bucks no matter where you live. That same percentage would make up 1/3 of the harvest otherwise.............so more deer each year will live to see their Second Rack, etc. etc.
My understanding is that QDM backers that oppose a Point restrictions - favor a "width Minimum" for antlers. This might be a good rule for a hunt club - but I wouldn't want to see this law legislated as a statewide regulation. I think it would be too hard to adhere to - even if it is more effective.
I wouldn't care if we never had statewide regulations for bucks - if more deer were allowed to live past 1-1/2 years old. When 80% of your buck harvest is 1-1/2 years old or less.........Then the state is managing for Quantity - not Quality no matter what anyone else has to say about it.
So what do we do if we want more deer in each age class (QDM)- Here's the options:
1. Nothing - Lets leave things as they are - and harvest 80% of 1-1/2 year old bucks every year. Limit doe permits - so that we can boost the population to support this harvest.
2. Reduce the length of the regular firearms season to 5-7 days like many of the Mid Western states do. This would "protect" many more deer by default.
3. Change hunters mindset on what is deer is OK and desireable to harvest. How can we get more hunters to NOT WANT to shoot the first (or 2nd, or 3rd) yearling buck that happensby?
4. Keep the Gun hunting season long - and come up with another way to reduce the number of yearling bucks harvested - 1. Antler Restrictions, 2. Must harvest a doe before a buck tag is issued, etc. All are options.
In a nutshell this is what we are faced with - I favor Option 4 - because I like the long seasons - and the chances to hunt other areas. BUT - my next option would be #2 and reduce the gun season to a shorter one. Of course I hunt with bow & Blackpowder - so that option doesn't really bother me much.
FH
Sure I realize Antler Restrictions is one tool that is possible in QDM. It in itself is not QDM - I do understand that - though people opposed to A/R often do not.
I support the idea if A/R, in lieu of a 3" antler minimum. I think it makes hunters be more sure of what they are taking, and helps to change the mindset of hunters, if they have to consider Antler points before pulling the trigger. Will yearling 7 pointers get taken..........YEP - and it will be legal and the hunter should get a pat on the back for making a good decision, he or she might be more proud of that seven point than 6 years of 4points in a row.
The way I see it, the law would "protect" 25% - 50% of yearling bucks no matter where you live. That same percentage would make up 1/3 of the harvest otherwise.............so more deer each year will live to see their Second Rack, etc. etc.
My understanding is that QDM backers that oppose a Point restrictions - favor a "width Minimum" for antlers. This might be a good rule for a hunt club - but I wouldn't want to see this law legislated as a statewide regulation. I think it would be too hard to adhere to - even if it is more effective.
I wouldn't care if we never had statewide regulations for bucks - if more deer were allowed to live past 1-1/2 years old. When 80% of your buck harvest is 1-1/2 years old or less.........Then the state is managing for Quantity - not Quality no matter what anyone else has to say about it.
So what do we do if we want more deer in each age class (QDM)- Here's the options:
1. Nothing - Lets leave things as they are - and harvest 80% of 1-1/2 year old bucks every year. Limit doe permits - so that we can boost the population to support this harvest.
2. Reduce the length of the regular firearms season to 5-7 days like many of the Mid Western states do. This would "protect" many more deer by default.
3. Change hunters mindset on what is deer is OK and desireable to harvest. How can we get more hunters to NOT WANT to shoot the first (or 2nd, or 3rd) yearling buck that happensby?
4. Keep the Gun hunting season long - and come up with another way to reduce the number of yearling bucks harvested - 1. Antler Restrictions, 2. Must harvest a doe before a buck tag is issued, etc. All are options.
In a nutshell this is what we are faced with - I favor Option 4 - because I like the long seasons - and the chances to hunt other areas. BUT - my next option would be #2 and reduce the gun season to a shorter one. Of course I hunt with bow & Blackpowder - so that option doesn't really bother me much.
FH
08-27-2007, 09:43 PM
#75
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Treasure Lake DuBois,Pa.
Posts: 1,571
RE: anyone in NY mad about the antler restrictions
If I may add some comments to the thread. You may not want to hear from a PA hunter , but I think there are some things missing in the thread.
First, NY didn't impose AR just to grow bigger bucks. NY has been watching PA since AR and increased doe tags began.
If someone has information on issues like Buck to doe ratio, overbrowsing,fawn mortality, and % of 1 1/2 yr old bucks killed it would help. I don't have these things , but this is what PA considered when AR was descided.
The % of 1/1/2 yr old bucks killed in PA every year was....90%. Think about that, "90%". Almost ALL of them. Mostly made up of spikes and fork horns. On top of that we had a 3 day doe season.
Long story short what you end up with is an unbalanced herd.A 15 to 1 doe /buck ratio.Forrests overbrowsed to the point that there is virtually NO regeneration at all. No regeneration means NO food for the deer. There are state lands that are void of deer because the herd has moved on , because there is nothing to eat.A hard winter kills the bigger bucks first because they are worn from the rut. Which, if you are interested lasted 3 months because the does were not bread , because there were no breeding age bucks. Alot of the late breeding that did occur was by the spikes.
It's just not a good situation.
Anyway, back to the point....
NY is not High grading. They are attempting to increase the age structure of the breeding class bucks.Saving the 1/1/2 yr old bucks and allowing them to live another year makes a big difference. A 21/2 year old buck is much smarter than a 1 1/2 yr old. He will probably make it a couple more years to be 3-4 1/2. They are much harder to kill.
AR can't work if doe harvest is not increased. The does have to be thinned to allow the regeneration to take place. I've been to NY and seen the same thing that PA has in it's woods. No forrest floor. Just ferns growing. Ther are no new sprouts shooting up from the ground. There are exceptions, like large pieces of private property.
My guess is that NY has boilogists that feel that this is a way to improve the deer situation and the health of the forrests.. It will work given time.
First, NY didn't impose AR just to grow bigger bucks. NY has been watching PA since AR and increased doe tags began.
If someone has information on issues like Buck to doe ratio, overbrowsing,fawn mortality, and % of 1 1/2 yr old bucks killed it would help. I don't have these things , but this is what PA considered when AR was descided.
The % of 1/1/2 yr old bucks killed in PA every year was....90%. Think about that, "90%". Almost ALL of them. Mostly made up of spikes and fork horns. On top of that we had a 3 day doe season.
Long story short what you end up with is an unbalanced herd.A 15 to 1 doe /buck ratio.Forrests overbrowsed to the point that there is virtually NO regeneration at all. No regeneration means NO food for the deer. There are state lands that are void of deer because the herd has moved on , because there is nothing to eat.A hard winter kills the bigger bucks first because they are worn from the rut. Which, if you are interested lasted 3 months because the does were not bread , because there were no breeding age bucks. Alot of the late breeding that did occur was by the spikes.
It's just not a good situation.
Anyway, back to the point....
NY is not High grading. They are attempting to increase the age structure of the breeding class bucks.Saving the 1/1/2 yr old bucks and allowing them to live another year makes a big difference. A 21/2 year old buck is much smarter than a 1 1/2 yr old. He will probably make it a couple more years to be 3-4 1/2. They are much harder to kill.
AR can't work if doe harvest is not increased. The does have to be thinned to allow the regeneration to take place. I've been to NY and seen the same thing that PA has in it's woods. No forrest floor. Just ferns growing. Ther are no new sprouts shooting up from the ground. There are exceptions, like large pieces of private property.
My guess is that NY has boilogists that feel that this is a way to improve the deer situation and the health of the forrests.. It will work given time.
08-27-2007, 09:44 PM
#76
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: cazenovia, NY USA
Posts: 2,973
RE: anyone in NY mad about the antler restrictions
Airbone Guy - no offense - but your last response is pretty lame.
You think it comes down to money? Maybe in your world it does - but I'll wager that most hunters in NY could care less where you spend your money to hunt - I know I couldn't care less.
No one's making you hunt in NY - Spend your time & money and target your trophy deer in NJ, or PA, or Delaware for all I care.I ABSOLUTELY don't agree with STEVENY onantler restrictions - but I'd probably like to hunt with him! I don't think I can say the same about you based on the last comments.
FH
You think it comes down to money? Maybe in your world it does - but I'll wager that most hunters in NY could care less where you spend your money to hunt - I know I couldn't care less.
No one's making you hunt in NY - Spend your time & money and target your trophy deer in NJ, or PA, or Delaware for all I care.I ABSOLUTELY don't agree with STEVENY onantler restrictions - but I'd probably like to hunt with him! I don't think I can say the same about you based on the last comments.
FH
08-28-2007, 04:14 AM
#78
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Moravia NY USA
Posts: 2,164
RE: anyone in NY mad about the antler restrictions
Long story short what you end up with is an unbalanced herd.A 15 to 1 doe /buck ratio.Forrests overbrowsed to the point that there is virtually NO regeneration at all. No regeneration means NO food for the deer. There are state lands that are void of deer because the herd has moved on , because there is nothing to eat.A hard winter kills the bigger bucks first because they are worn from the rut. Which, if you are interested lasted 3 months because the does were not bread , because there were no breeding age bucks. Alot of the late breeding that did occur was by the spikes.
It's just not a good situation.
It's just not a good situation.
NY is not High grading. They are attempting to increase the age structure of the breeding class bucks.Saving the 1/1/2 yr old bucks and allowing them to live another year makes a big difference.
AR can't work if doe harvest is not increased. The does have to be thinned to allow the regeneration to take place. I've been to NY and seen the same thing that PA has in it's woods. No forrest floor. Just ferns growing. Ther are no new sprouts shooting up from the ground. There are exceptions, like large pieces of private property.
One of the biggest reasons for my oppsosition to STATEWIDE mandatory AR is that many of those seeking it point to conditions in one area and them claim it is needed everywhere. When in fact in much of the state, it could actually hurt. I agree there are some areas it may be beneficial, but keep the paitbrush narrow and where needed.
Steve
08-28-2007, 05:39 AM
#79
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,102
RE: anyone in NY mad about the antler restrictions
SteveB,
Please forward your reference source for the 60% figure you have mentioned.I am assuming it is a written document.I don'tknow how that information would be compiled,check stations?Our tag reports don't ask for our estimated age of the animal like some states do.
I will tell you flat out I don't believe that percentage,unless it was made up of units that are highly agricultural and even then I don't know how reliable information would be compiled.I am not interested in biologists speculation,I would like to see the study.
Please forward your reference source for the 60% figure you have mentioned.I am assuming it is a written document.I don'tknow how that information would be compiled,check stations?Our tag reports don't ask for our estimated age of the animal like some states do.
I will tell you flat out I don't believe that percentage,unless it was made up of units that are highly agricultural and even then I don't know how reliable information would be compiled.I am not interested in biologists speculation,I would like to see the study.
08-28-2007, 05:48 AM
#80
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Western NY
Posts: 790
RE: anyone in NY mad about the antler restrictions
my 2 cents regarding A/R...NY state should extend the season in order to allow us to hunt longer. If they did this, it would take some of the pressure off us "week-end warriors" to get a deer. I might let that 4 point go during bow if I knew I had more time to hunt and I'm sure other hunters would think the same way. Look at some of the other states...SC has been hunting for 2 weeks! Ohio and NJ have an extended season into January. Our season is too short to be a picky hunter and there are plenty of deer out there for all of us! Bow is what...5 weeks andgun maybe 6. Becauseof myactive family life, I'm very lucky to get out 75% of the time on weekends. Which, if you compare to some of the other states, it's not enoughtime. My vote is not to restrict the antler size but to extend the season.