RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

Windwalker, you speak of “the PGC’ as though they made some official announcement as an agency.
I remember in about 1955 -1957 period, a barber, (Richard Daveler), from our town of Marietta shot a canine while deer hunting in Potter County. It was thought to be a “wolf.” It was later checked out by the local “Game Warden,” (Russell Shope), who saidsomething to the effect of he doubted it was a wolf but looked like an exceptionally large coyote.
It was not too many years after that another canine was shot along the river in York County and it was said, (by PGC),to be a coyote.
That was about 50 years ago and it was all the talk of the area at the time.
Yes, there was speculation as to coyotes breeding with dogs but that seemed to me to be a local myth that was not anything the PGC officially claimed. If you can show me evidence to the contrary I’ll gladly accept it.
The incidences were so rare at the time that nobody really knew what was what.
Irecall it was the PGC flat out stating (in PGN), that our coyotes were not “coy dogs.” I can’t tell you what year that was but it was a very long time ago. (decades)
We need to keep in mind that back then the technology simply didn’t exist. Even something like communication between regions was reliant on telephones – no call waiting, no answer machines, no voice mail or call forwarding. When the PGC finally had some evidence and genetic testing available, they were quick to clarify the wolf/coyote hybrids. That also was “decades” ago.
As for wild dogs, they definitely were a problem in some years and many claimed them to be coyotes when in fact they were not. In my area here, in the mid to late 70’s there was talk of “packs” of coyotes numbering 10 and 12 at a time, killing sheep and chickens.
Myself and many others believed it. At the time I didn’t know that our coyotes do not travel and hunt in packs. They hunt in family groups much smaller than the packs of the western coyotes.
One day as two friends and I were building my first cabin I had to go to town for some materials. I left my two friends and as I went out the dirt road a neighbor stopped me to tell me coyotes had attacked his sheep during the night and to keep my eye out for them.
When I got back from town, both my friends were perched on the roof trusses. They told me 9 wild dogs came through and had them “treed.” The next day I killed two of them and that same neighbor killed two about a mile away. I think all were killed in the following weeks as they kept returning to attack the sheep.
So much for the pack of coyotes. (even though we "did" have some coyotes here at the time)
You cannot blame anyone for not knowing the true extent of coyotes in the early years. PGC stated that coyotes were known to exist in the N.E. since the 1920’s, but they did not have the means to verify or estimate how many and in what range they were.
A lot of these post imply “cover up” or conspiracy” and it simply ain’t so.

As for mountain lions, read back. No one says it is impossible that some exist. To date, each and every ML that has been verified has been proven to be pets.
Now, if you want to believe there are “wild” populations, that’s up to you. But the rest of us are saying we need more than “someone said” evidence.
You say “it” has been proven. I ask, “what” has been proven?
“Proof” of wild Ml's is not someone saying they saw them.
And, as you point out, in many cases "seeing" them isn't even proof is was a pet ML.

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

This is my problem. I just recall this from when I was 12 and just starting hunting. I am now going on 43.

Many of the sheep farmers were all upset about the PGC blaming it all on dogs. I'm sure some of the incidents were the work of dogs.

This even made the evening news on TV. I remember the news crew interviewing a game commissioner in the small town where we hunt. It might have bee Rod Ansell giving the interview, but don't quote me on that. I remember my dad telling my mother that that is right where we hunt.

When the farmers started offerering rewards, many dead coyotes started turning up. The PGC seemed to take the matter more serious after that.

I'd like you to point out, Mr. Northstar, where in my post did I say anything was proven about ML's? You harp about others exagerating stories and twisting facts and seeing just what they want, yet you do the same.


Your previous post is an example. You state I said ML's were proven but I made no such statement.

I want proof just as much as the next guy. I've talked to a few people that claimed to have seem them. I believe these people to have seen what they claimed to have seen. I have no reason to doubt them.

I also "recall" Wayne Van Dyne on one of the TV news stations many years ago going to the house of some lady that made claims of seeing mountain lions all the time. As they were interviewing her on her porch, one of the news crew saw a ML walking along the edge of a field. They got several seconds of footage yet it was blurry because they just swung the camera off of the lady and it wasn't quite focused yet. They showed the blurry footage several times and got alot of news hype about it. You could see that it was a tawny colored cat with a long tail. Even though it was blurry, you could easily see it was a ML and not a house cat.I believe this was back in the 80's.

I'm surprised someone wasn't able to dig up this piece of film. Of course this was pre internet days.

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

I should have addressed my post to both you and Sproulman.

Sproulman said "it is proven" but since then he went back and edited that out of his post.
That's the kind of thing that makes his claims questionable.

You did say, "As for mountain lions, yes they are here."
Now, that may not contain the word "proven" but it is said as a fact. A "fact" is something that is proven.

A cat with a long tail could easilly be a house cat at a distance. That "has" happened and been proven -- yup, "proven" to be the case in at least one report.
Funny how video gets blurry when those $30,000 news video cams pf 20 years ago had pretty much instant focus.
By the way, TV stations archive all of their reports. I'm sure if it exists they have it and may possibly share it with you since it would give them some ratings.

Ain't it also funny how some posts make these cats out to be ghost of the deep dark forests, but in others they casually walk past a house with a group of people standing there? And it just so happens it is a news crew!!!!!

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

I believe this was KDKA news team. The footage was out of focus but I recall seeing the black and white facial markings. You could also see the long thick tail floating and twitching as it casually walked along the edge of the field then went in the woods.

I recall they showed the film to some experts ( don't recall what made them experts) but they agreed that the footage showed a ML.

The lady made claims to seeing them around her house all the time.



Cougardeville,

Maybe you can look into this. I belive this was early 80's news segment for KDKA news out of Pittsburg. The reporter was Wayne Van Dyne. He was one of those invetigative reporters that usually did stories on fraud and ripoffs. If there was someone or some business that was ripping people off he'd interveiw the person and try to get the problem solved.

I'm sure that fottage is somewhere. I believe that even NorthPA would agree that it was a cougar after viewing it. Then he'd probably want proof that it was filmed in PA;)

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

Would this be considered as twisting words to make them say what you want?

I understand what I said. You made it seem as though, I said that there was proof of ML's in PA.

I'm convinced they are here.

I served on a jury once. I listened to an eyewitnes tell of what he saw. This wasn't proof or was it?

There's lots of guys sitting in prison because of witness testimony.


Sometimes there is just a blurry security camera photo to go along with the witnesses story.

That seems to be proof enough in that situation.

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

Windwalker, you are kind of ignoring what was said ain't ya?
I clearly explained and clarified that it was Sproul who said"proven."
If you didn't understand that here it is again --- Sproulman said "proven" and later changed his post to edit that out.

I also clearly said that you stated it as a fact, in as--- "yes they are." That isn't a maybe, it isn't a could be, it isn't might be, it is stated as a fact.
Do you need that explained also?

Anyway, you've convinced me -- "black and white facial markings" and a blurry video is enough to convict someone along with witness testimony.
I think humans are mostly capable of identifying other humans but blurry, unidentifiable video certainly isn't proof on it's own.

"You"stated some humans mistake bobcats for cougars -- it ain't the same thing as one human identifying another.

Oh well, I really don't care. If and when there's is "real proof" of a "wild" (not pet) mountain lion, then I will glady accept them as existing in our forests. (except when they go to Florida for the winter to avoid the snow) :eek:

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

Geeeez - How many more pages are you guys going Beat up on Each Other over the SAME OLE Mountain Lion stories.

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

Yes it is getting old.


There are some things that people believe or just consider as fact without being proven.

Example;

Everyone knows OJ Simpson killed his ex wife and her boyfriend. yet it just wasn't proven in court. Today he is a free man because of the lack of proof.


We all take for granted that there are other planets in our solar system ( Saturn, Uranus, Jupiter, Neptune) yet science can only show "Enhanced" photos to prove it. Nothing material, just photos. No soil, no rocks, not a thing. Just enhanced photos. We all know they are there though.

Many of us believe in God, yet many atheist ask for the same " proof " We can't, we just know there is a God and we accept that as "fact".

Some things we just have to sort out for ourselves.

When I make a statement that "they are here" I am convinced of that. I can't prove it anymore that I can prove there is a God or planets.

I guess maybe I can make you understnd it this way, NorthPA. If you wife or daughter told you they saw a large bear walk through your yard and there were no tracks or photos, would you believe them? After you grilled them with dozens of questions and all were answered pointing toward a bear, would you believe they were telling the truth? Why would they make up a story?

Well after questioning a few witnesses myself I believe they saw a cougar. Everthing they described pointed towards a ML. The tail the color, the reaction.

The one my old GF saw was crouched beside the road as she passed. She was within 10ft. She even commented that it had white hair coming out of its ears. Said it was crouched down with its ears laid back and acted like it was scared. She describe the hair curling outof its ears.


I immediatly thought BOBCAT with ear tufts. She went on to describe how she watched it cross the road behind her in the rearview mirrior. She kept saying it was orange, big as a deer and had a long tail that curled up in the air as it ran.

If you ever seen a cougar run, that is exactly what the tail does.

She got made fun of pretty bad at work by all us guys ( we worked at the same place)

She stuck to her story but wasn't one to make up stuff anyway.



Well, we've beat this dead horse for way to long. Hopefully time will tell, and when it does, I expect a full apology from you;)

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

It,s breaking some law. If not the holy ones its the pets owners. That may be a steep fine sproulman.:)

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

Posted this one before....look close by the porch.....

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

WAS THAT PICTURE HERE IN PA?WHAT COUNTY,THANKS..

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

Hard to tell but the last thing I would guess is a lion. the legs are too long in proportion to the body for any feline. The coloration makes It really look more like a deer but I suppose a dog could have white markings under the belly, tail and rump.

My vote is that's a whitetail deer!

Maybe the PGC is experimenting with crossing deer with lions:eek:

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

Looks like someone's yellow lab.

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

Spoulman.... That was in Moshannon S.F., Clearfield Co., PA.

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

I'm thinkin it looks like a dog.Man this thread is getting ruff.:eek:

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

well, it looks like a yellow lab to me,rear legs are not COUGAR..i saw cougar and legs did not look like that..

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

On second thought that is a cougar, definately a cougar. No doubt in my mind. :D

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

dog...

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

sorry, don't know why 2 pics. but as you see I turned the lights on!
Body too short, no cougar paws, legs not correct, tail won't touch ground, can't see head clearly.....
I say dog
Cougardaville

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

O.K. guys... You got me.... That's my 100 lb. Yellow Lab "Moses" at camp.
I guess my point was that sometimes people see what they want to see. The mind somehow takes control of what is actually there, because we wanted to see something other than what is or was there. I feel this is probably the main reason people get shot in turkey season. Someone wanted to see a turkey so badly that they actually thought they did. Maybe kind of ties into the main topic of this post, do you think?
A real quick glance at the camp picture with the tpoic of cougars under discussion, and woah!! There's one!! Just some food for thought.
Thought you might want to see the "cougar" during one of his hunting trips.....into dreamland!!

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

Beautiful dog!! and I can keep my reputation:)

Cougardaville;)

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

if it took anyone more than 8/10ths of a millisecond to identify the yellow lab in the pictue , well, i just don't know what to say!

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

tplank,do you really think thats a COUGARr?what is your reason to think it is?maybe i missed someting,not being smart!

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

the cougars we are seeing have tail that is longer and will reach ground ..tails we are seing are ROUND not flat like dog in that picture..

when cougar runs tail will twist in the air behind cougar..legs are much different than lab..

color is not bad but ones we are seeing are more of ORANGEISH color or some said TAWNY..

thanks for picture but i have to say that is not COUGAR..

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

How big are thetracks those tawney cats are leaving this winter?Oh,that's right,they don't leave tracks.Just funnin with ya.

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

everyone i talked to douge, has not seen cougar in winter other than people in LYCOMING CO..they are seeing cougar,they say now..

this is why i threw out the theory that cougars may be leaving our harsh winter areas for better hunting grounds,i dont know..

i dont believe they are WAYBACK as no food is wayback..

almost all our local sighting have been june to dec,but that is also time hunters and fisherman are out..

most were seen in middle of the DIRT roads in remote areas..

there is farmer in hyner,pa.farmed his land for 60 years..he knowswhat a bobcat looks like..he said that cougar came right out in his field while he was plowing,he got good look at it..he reported it to PGC..

these people i trust with my life..when they say it had long tail and big, thats no DOMESTIC PET..

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

I have a different theoryand thecougars aren't heading south for the winter.Do you honestly believe that could be possible?

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

Gee, the cougars in other parts of the country, with much more severe weather don't go south.........
Seems they are different in Lycoming County. Bet that would be a good spot to check the "middle of dirt roads" for tracks now that there is snow on. Should be tons of them since reportings are so hot there. I wonder how many of those reporting cougars are out there looking for tracks.....

And are you saying that cougar pets released have different tails than wild cougars?

And the farmer saw a cougar in a freshly plowed field -- how about tracks? Or didn't the cougar step into the plowed part? Maybe they don't like stepping onloose dirt or snow -- yes, that is tongue-in-cheek.

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

i only offered the leave area thing here in wmu2g,i dont know if that happens..there really is not much to eat here in winter with game scare and less deer..

i agree, pgc should be able to get tracks in LYCOMING CO..

as for farmer, i understand that the pgc DID investigate this farmers property..i will try to see farmer and ask him what they found..

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

I thought you said 2G was overloaded with coyotes.What do they eat in the winter that mountain lions couldn't kill?Do the coyotes also leave 2G in the winter?

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

dont know if they leave,i did not see as many this year ,as last..
friend sent me picture of 29 coyotes they got this year in a couple of days..he is in farm areas..he said coyotes are worst this year than ever..

i am hearing oposite here in wmu2g from trappers, they say less this year..

it may be do to OVERHARVEST OF DOE..coyotes, i think will go where deer are,thats not in wmu2g..

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

Not long ago you were complaining about seeing coyote tracks all over the place.They must be eating something.Why do they leave tracks and mountain lions don't?

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

:D:D:D:D:D:D

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

Why do they leave tracks and mountain lions don't?

I may have figured it out: We don't have mountain lions...we have Griffins!

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

maybe they do leave tracks
maybe they move out of the rugged areas in winter if food is better elsewhere
maybe do to weather, people are not in woods or on roads as much as in june/dec

again, i dont know but if there are only a FEW cougars here and they move around a lot,sighting could be seen here, cougar moves then seen somewhere else

i dont know but i know you will certainly have answer,NO COUGARS EXIST.

that douge, is where you are WRONG.sad you never saw COUGAR ,most i know that are hunters, have seen one..

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

You honestly believe that most hunters have seen a cougar?That's just plain funny.Let me get this strait,hunters say there's no deer in a WMU where thousands are proved to be killed every year.Yet,most see an animal that doesn't leave any sign what so ever.

It is sad that I've never seen an animal in which no credible evidence has ever been provided to prove it's existence.That really bums me out.

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

Yes, the illogical thinking is indeed sad.

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

Well then screw that.I'm not hunting where there's griffens.Aint never seen one of those critters but then I don't want to either.:D

RE: FEDS PLAN STUDY OF COUGARS
 

hunters i know have seen a cougar ,douge..many ,many of them..i belong to 6 sportsman clubs and MANY have seen acougar..some saw cougar 3 times on the beech creek rd in clinton/centre countygoing to work..