Deer Crisis Seminar
02-27-2007, 08:29 PM
#21
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: Deer Crisis Seminar
Cougardaville, I dont think any reasonable member here will tell you that there's no chance of a cougar here in PA. I'm sure that the possibility exists for the occasional migrant big cat. I do question the idea of established breeding populations though. the PGC has recently begun to take sightings more seriously but they do make one point that is hard to dispute. That point is the one where there have been no documented road kills.For example, Florida (where there are a very few) gets the occasional panther kill on their roads . Whether or not PA actually has a resident population was not the point of the members here poking a bit of fun. It was more poking fun at the speaker and the small following of misguided souls who you will meet at the event.
As for predators being a force here, there is no doubt about that. The PGC fawn mortality has shown that coyotes and bears are a major factor in fawn mortality especially in poor habitat. As it turns out, predators are far more effective at killing deer than hunters have been in WMU 2G which happens to be the WMU that the folks at this meeting will claim has been the most overhunted. BTW there was one confirmed bobcat kill and zero cougar kills documented in the above mentionedstudies.
What you apparently dont know is that the seminar your are planning to attend is more likely to be yet another PGC bashfest than anything else. The featured speaker is not well repected here and I trust you will understand why after the event is over.
I've seen some of your threads over the years and I will say that if you want to be taken seriously, aligning with speaker at this meeting and his cronies will certainly not help your cause.
As for predators being a force here, there is no doubt about that. The PGC fawn mortality has shown that coyotes and bears are a major factor in fawn mortality especially in poor habitat. As it turns out, predators are far more effective at killing deer than hunters have been in WMU 2G which happens to be the WMU that the folks at this meeting will claim has been the most overhunted. BTW there was one confirmed bobcat kill and zero cougar kills documented in the above mentionedstudies.
What you apparently dont know is that the seminar your are planning to attend is more likely to be yet another PGC bashfest than anything else. The featured speaker is not well repected here and I trust you will understand why after the event is over.
I've seen some of your threads over the years and I will say that if you want to be taken seriously, aligning with speaker at this meeting and his cronies will certainly not help your cause.
02-27-2007, 11:03 PM
#22
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 142
RE: Deer Crisis Seminar
BTbowhunter.....I don't want to turn this thread into a mountain lion debate, we all know I have been there and done that! You did evade my question "have you or one of your associates seen a mountain lion, andI said the answer would be yes" I know any one that hunts as much as you do and is an outdoors men/woman with friends and family with the same interest the facts are... it is a big YES! [/align][/align]The road kill theory is poppy cock!! I won't expand here, like I saidso I don'ttogo on about mountain lions.[/align][/align]I also did notimplya "breeding population" theESA considers that number to be 50 breeding pairs. Who the heck would know this when no one is studying this. BUT females are seen with kittens so we do know they are multiplying, and the sightings are more frequent![/align][/align]I am glad you agree that predators are an impact on deerand I should mention other wildlife and not to exclude pets and livestock.[/align][/align]Now to the Seminar....I try to work along with game officials and police not against them, I have no problem with my DEC here as a matter of fact they are doing the best job they can do with the budget they have to work with. Of course we always want more....they now admit we have mountain lions and that coyotes are a serious problem.[/align][/align]I have had several occasions where Ihave been in contact with the PGC and the answers to my questions, or the task involved was not what I expectedfrom Game officials.?? Iplan to meet with more when I come to Pa. [/align][/align]Then you say and I quote:[/align]What you apparently dont know is that the seminar your are planning to attend is more likely to be yet another PGC bashfest than anything else. The featured speaker is not well repected here and I trust you will understand why after the event is over.
I've seen some of your threads over the years and I will say that if you want to be taken seriously, aligning with speaker at this meeting and his cronies will certainly not help your cause. [/align]
The featured speaker has a name.... Jim Slinsky, I have studied him for years. I have followedsome ofhis work, heis very involved in many bigprojects and tells it like it is! Then you say if I want to be taken seriously, aligning with Jim Slinsky and his cronies my reputation will be tarnished like a bad bar scene. Oh and BTY I hate that word "cause" it sounds like a crusade, what I do is research and study. Then I share and teach what we have learned. This is part of the reason I am coming to this seminar, I may have something to offer and then to gain. [/align][/align]I thank the person that linked my site, there is good information there for people that want to learn about mountain lions and other predators, plus some insight on government agencies.[/align][/align]Advertising this seminar in this site has only done one thing......You have made a list of who does not like or approve ofthe USP and Jim Slinsky, I will go and make my own decisions concerning both. I hope the PGC is there so I get a good look at all. Maybe some of you will be there so we can meet?[/align][/align]Geese........this will be some trip!!!![/align][/align]Cougardaville[/align][/align]
I've seen some of your threads over the years and I will say that if you want to be taken seriously, aligning with speaker at this meeting and his cronies will certainly not help your cause. [/align]
The featured speaker has a name.... Jim Slinsky, I have studied him for years. I have followedsome ofhis work, heis very involved in many bigprojects and tells it like it is! Then you say if I want to be taken seriously, aligning with Jim Slinsky and his cronies my reputation will be tarnished like a bad bar scene. Oh and BTY I hate that word "cause" it sounds like a crusade, what I do is research and study. Then I share and teach what we have learned. This is part of the reason I am coming to this seminar, I may have something to offer and then to gain. [/align][/align]I thank the person that linked my site, there is good information there for people that want to learn about mountain lions and other predators, plus some insight on government agencies.[/align][/align]Advertising this seminar in this site has only done one thing......You have made a list of who does not like or approve ofthe USP and Jim Slinsky, I will go and make my own decisions concerning both. I hope the PGC is there so I get a good look at all. Maybe some of you will be there so we can meet?[/align][/align]Geese........this will be some trip!!!![/align][/align]Cougardaville[/align][/align]
02-28-2007, 04:22 AM
#23
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location:
Posts: 317
RE: Deer Crisis Seminar
I don't want to be the wet blanket on this campfire, but the only significant predator on deer in the state of Pennsylvania is man. You can blame any other creature you want, bigfoot, mountain lions, coyotes, space aliens, but none of them takes anything approaching half a million deer in any year. Well, maybe the space aliens. I have seen some guys who claim to be hunters who are not from this planet.
The USP is a fringe loonie organization led by a financial consultant, a linoleum chemist (retired), and a talk show host who believes in wolf/coyote hybrids stocked by the insurance companies. Mostly they are a waste of good air.
The USP is a fringe loonie organization led by a financial consultant, a linoleum chemist (retired), and a talk show host who believes in wolf/coyote hybrids stocked by the insurance companies. Mostly they are a waste of good air.
02-28-2007, 05:36 AM
#24
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 196
RE: Deer Crisis Seminar
Cougardville,
You of course are free to believe and promote as you wish. The USP/Famous radio talk show host, event is a perfect setting for promoting basically anything that flies in the face of reality and facts.
Since there will be Pennsylvania hunters attending and since I am proud of my native PA heritage and since some folks are gullible, I hope you do not fall in line in promoting lies, as is often, (always), the case with that particular speaker.
For instance; the PGC did not deny the wolf/coyote hybrid existence. As a matter of fact the Pennsylvania Game News published and article about that very thing over 20 years ago.
Coyotes have been known to exist for over 80 years in this region, (PA/NY), in some numbers – no PGC denial of that either.
You asked the question about knowing someone who has seen a cougar. I know of no one who has seen a cougar. I do know of several who “think” they have seen a cougar. I also know of some who produced pictures of cougars and claimed they were local. They sure were, if you consider Idaho or Wyoming to be local to PA.
I have used the example many times of my neighbor who is now 70 years old and has lived in this mountain region all of his life and is a very active outdoorsman and hunter.
A couple of years ago I showed him a video of an extremely large bobcat in my field, (in pouring rain), I paused it, rewound and re-played it--- “cougar” was what he said. He was not the only one who quickly determined it to be a cougar, but he was the most experienced one.
Does having photos of deer that were “devoured” mean, – having photos of dead deer that were “eaten” by predators? No surprised there! Do you have photos of predators “killing” those deer?
We could go on and on but the bottom line is that there is no credible evidence of any substantial number of cougars in this region --- none! Delaware had two or three that were determined to be released captives. West Virginia had “tracks” and guess who, coincidently, found those tracks? None other than the founder of the Eastern Cougar Foundation!
No one is saying it is impossible that formerly captive cougars exist. In fact, one was shot by a PA hunter in 1967.
As you said, you can make your own decisions as to who you aligned yourself with.
If you have been active in studying JS then you should be aware of some of his claims. Many of which are proven to be lies, gross exaggerations or selective bits of the whole picture.
If, in that case, you still see him as “tells it like it is,” then you have more then adequately introduced yourself.
And oh yeah, we are not in "A Crisis" here in PA. Sorry, the sky is not falling and, by far, most outdoorsmen and women are aware that we have it pretty darn good.
You of course are free to believe and promote as you wish. The USP/Famous radio talk show host, event is a perfect setting for promoting basically anything that flies in the face of reality and facts.
Since there will be Pennsylvania hunters attending and since I am proud of my native PA heritage and since some folks are gullible, I hope you do not fall in line in promoting lies, as is often, (always), the case with that particular speaker.
For instance; the PGC did not deny the wolf/coyote hybrid existence. As a matter of fact the Pennsylvania Game News published and article about that very thing over 20 years ago.
Coyotes have been known to exist for over 80 years in this region, (PA/NY), in some numbers – no PGC denial of that either.
You asked the question about knowing someone who has seen a cougar. I know of no one who has seen a cougar. I do know of several who “think” they have seen a cougar. I also know of some who produced pictures of cougars and claimed they were local. They sure were, if you consider Idaho or Wyoming to be local to PA.
I have used the example many times of my neighbor who is now 70 years old and has lived in this mountain region all of his life and is a very active outdoorsman and hunter.
A couple of years ago I showed him a video of an extremely large bobcat in my field, (in pouring rain), I paused it, rewound and re-played it--- “cougar” was what he said. He was not the only one who quickly determined it to be a cougar, but he was the most experienced one.
Does having photos of deer that were “devoured” mean, – having photos of dead deer that were “eaten” by predators? No surprised there! Do you have photos of predators “killing” those deer?
We could go on and on but the bottom line is that there is no credible evidence of any substantial number of cougars in this region --- none! Delaware had two or three that were determined to be released captives. West Virginia had “tracks” and guess who, coincidently, found those tracks? None other than the founder of the Eastern Cougar Foundation!
No one is saying it is impossible that formerly captive cougars exist. In fact, one was shot by a PA hunter in 1967.
As you said, you can make your own decisions as to who you aligned yourself with.
If you have been active in studying JS then you should be aware of some of his claims. Many of which are proven to be lies, gross exaggerations or selective bits of the whole picture.
If, in that case, you still see him as “tells it like it is,” then you have more then adequately introduced yourself.
And oh yeah, we are not in "A Crisis" here in PA. Sorry, the sky is not falling and, by far, most outdoorsmen and women are aware that we have it pretty darn good.
02-28-2007, 07:04 AM
#25
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: Deer Crisis Seminar
NorthPA
Thanks!
I read Cougars last post and didnt have the time right then to repond but you have saved me the time. I cant possibly think of anything to add.
Your line:
absolutely says it all!!!
Cougardaville,
Just so I dont get accused of evading a question.... NO I have not seen a cougar anywhere near PA. I know a few folks who THINK they saw one but thats the extent of it. the last one sighted anywhere near me was captured by a tavern owner using an electrical cord to make a leash and that was several years ago. So yes, i guess if you count Cougar Bob from Kelletville PAI do know someone who has seen a "real" cougar. the locals made him a folk hero in the paper and the grateful owner got his cat back.
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[hr]
Thanks!
I read Cougars last post and didnt have the time right then to repond but you have saved me the time. I cant possibly think of anything to add.
Your line:
If, in that case, you still see him as “tells it like it is,” then you have more then adequately introduced yourself.
Cougardaville,
Just so I dont get accused of evading a question.... NO I have not seen a cougar anywhere near PA. I know a few folks who THINK they saw one but thats the extent of it. the last one sighted anywhere near me was captured by a tavern owner using an electrical cord to make a leash and that was several years ago. So yes, i guess if you count Cougar Bob from Kelletville PAI do know someone who has seen a "real" cougar. the locals made him a folk hero in the paper and the grateful owner got his cat back.
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02-28-2007, 08:15 AM
#26
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,262
RE: Deer Crisis Seminar
I know several experienced hunters and outdoorsman that claim to have seen a mountain lion.Funny thing is,none of them have any experience with mountainion lions so they have no more experience with the subject that some city dweller.I wouldn't doubt thatsome eco-wacko would try and release a cat from time to time to try and bring things to a more "natural balance" but I've yet to see any proof.
I've been all overcougardavile's website and fail to see anyproof of their existence.What I see is a bunch of hysterical posts about peopleclaiming they saw one.There's even a post about the supposed sighting around pittsburgh this month.I'd think with all the snow on the ground,it's existence would be fairly easy to prove.So where's the proof?Why even post something that easy to prove,yet with no proof?It's nothing more than stirring the pot.
As far as JS,look at the claims he's trying to make in some of his articles.He talks about a guy seeing a cattle truck loaded with coyotes that was parked at the Dallas regional headquarters of the PGC.Who would believe such nonsense?Worse yet,what kind of clown would promote it?There isn't one shred of ecidence that the PGC would so stupid as to import coyotes,but J.S keeps pushing the issue because his living depends on causing contoversy with the PGC.
By the way,it would be illegal to kill a mountain lion in Pa because they aren't listed as a game animal and they were once indigenous to Pa.That's how it works with respect to the game laws.It's not some big conspiracy to cover up their existence.We've had snow cover accross Pa and New york for over a month now.Mountain lions don't fly so let's see some actual tracks.Better yet,how about someone follow the tracks with dogs and take a picture of the cat.
I've been all overcougardavile's website and fail to see anyproof of their existence.What I see is a bunch of hysterical posts about peopleclaiming they saw one.There's even a post about the supposed sighting around pittsburgh this month.I'd think with all the snow on the ground,it's existence would be fairly easy to prove.So where's the proof?Why even post something that easy to prove,yet with no proof?It's nothing more than stirring the pot.
As far as JS,look at the claims he's trying to make in some of his articles.He talks about a guy seeing a cattle truck loaded with coyotes that was parked at the Dallas regional headquarters of the PGC.Who would believe such nonsense?Worse yet,what kind of clown would promote it?There isn't one shred of ecidence that the PGC would so stupid as to import coyotes,but J.S keeps pushing the issue because his living depends on causing contoversy with the PGC.
By the way,it would be illegal to kill a mountain lion in Pa because they aren't listed as a game animal and they were once indigenous to Pa.That's how it works with respect to the game laws.It's not some big conspiracy to cover up their existence.We've had snow cover accross Pa and New york for over a month now.Mountain lions don't fly so let's see some actual tracks.Better yet,how about someone follow the tracks with dogs and take a picture of the cat.
02-28-2007, 08:52 AM
#27
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Moravia NY USA
Posts: 2,164
RE: Deer Crisis Seminar
I've been all overcougardavile's website and fail to see anyproof of their existence.What I see is a bunch of hysterical posts about peopleclaiming they saw one.There's even a post about the supposed sighting around pittsburgh this month.I'd think with all the snow on the ground,it's existence would be fairly easy to prove.So where's the proof?Why even post something that easy to prove,yet with no proof?It's nothing more than stirring the pot.
Steve
02-28-2007, 12:29 PM
#28
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 196
RE: Deer Crisis Seminar
Yeah there was a whole lot of "someone stepped in all of the tracks," (but PGC took a cast and the guy said it was too small to be the cougar he witnessed!!!).
"People are scared of the law, so they don't report road kills"and the always reliable -- "he knows what he saw."
Not one shred of any DNA or accpetable proof. Amazing!
"People are scared of the law, so they don't report road kills"and the always reliable -- "he knows what he saw."
Not one shred of any DNA or accpetable proof. Amazing!
02-28-2007, 12:57 PM
#29
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,262
RE: Deer Crisis Seminar
Alot of otherwise intellegent and educated peoplebelieve this nonsense.I have a good friend and business owner in Montrose.This guy is a pretty good hunter and college educated.Last year I was at his place and he began telling meabout his neighbor seeing a black helicopter dropping a mountain lion off in a net behind his house.This guy actually believed it and nothing anyone said would convince him it wasn't true.Honestly,why would anyone go through the expense and hassle to use a helicopter when a pick-up truck would have been just as easy to use?Where did they air lift this cat from and why didn't anyone else see it?Simply amazing.
02-28-2007, 02:06 PM
#30
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 142
RE: Deer Crisis Seminar
ORIGINAL: DougE
Alot of otherwise intellegent and educated peoplebelieve this nonsense.I have a good friend and business owner in Montrose.This guy is a pretty good hunter and college educated.Last year I was at his place and he began telling meabout his neighbor seeing a black helicopter dropping a mountain lion off in a net behind his house.This guy actually believed it and nothing anyone said would convince him it wasn't true.Honestly,why would anyone go through the expense and hassle to use a helicopter when a pick-up truck would have been just as easy to use?Where did they air lift this cat from and why didn't anyone else see it?Simply amazing.
Alot of otherwise intellegent and educated peoplebelieve this nonsense.I have a good friend and business owner in Montrose.This guy is a pretty good hunter and college educated.Last year I was at his place and he began telling meabout his neighbor seeing a black helicopter dropping a mountain lion off in a net behind his house.This guy actually believed it and nothing anyone said would convince him it wasn't true.Honestly,why would anyone go through the expense and hassle to use a helicopter when a pick-up truck would have been just as easy to use?Where did they air lift this cat from and why didn't anyone else see it?Simply amazing.
Now don't fall down BUT.........I agree with you about your story of the air lifted cat.....also this is turning into ...first bashing of USP, then Jim Slinsky, now we are on to my site and mountain lions......all this wasdue to an advertisement to a DEER seminar.....END OF STORY!
Any one with mountain lion questions, bashing or storieslets do it at my place.....
Cougardaville