New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
01-23-2007, 10:16 AM
#201
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location:
Posts: 87
RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
well steve i dont know what you want to hear....honestly around here a 1.5 yo 6 point is pretty rare, but not unlikely last year a kid killed a 95lb 10 pointer, nothing is perfect, however i would liek to give them a little better odds, we can disagree that is fine. and our experiences are different, most of the guys i know shoot smaller bucks then say they shot it because they hadn't seen anything else and wanted to shoot something. .....i DO NOT agree that AR's should be used in general al over teh state, i think that in places where the herd can benefit from ti they shoudl eb implemented, not in others..........either way.......not everyone is going to be happy, either way....if we keep it the way it is or change to AR's people ill be pissed....hell Gary Alts life was threatened when he changed.......i say that the only thing that can be implemented state wide is higher penalties for poaching and more enforcment of the laws that are already in place.......i personally believe this will help the herd more than people think. ......................
Doctari.....also the only way i can see the button buck situation working is if someone uses their buck tag to tag a button buck.. thats the only solution, and most likely not a fair one. there will never ever be an ideal situation in the NYS deer herd, but i feel that AR's in certain areas would at least give the deer a little bit of an edge to get a little older.
Doctari.....also the only way i can see the button buck situation working is if someone uses their buck tag to tag a button buck.. thats the only solution, and most likely not a fair one. there will never ever be an ideal situation in the NYS deer herd, but i feel that AR's in certain areas would at least give the deer a little bit of an edge to get a little older.
01-23-2007, 12:07 PM
#202
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 184
RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
Yes, Big John, it is a Hunter Safety rule. Know your target and what is beyond.
The best we can do in this situation is know you're shooting at a deer, and know that a person isn't near the line of fire (in front and behind).
Our safety record proves out that NYS is one of the safest, if not the safest hunting state in the Union.
But, that isn't the issue. Guys who have DMPs and want to harvest an antlerless deer willidentify the deer as having no antlers, and if a safe shot is presented (and a quality shot, I hope), they take it. I would bet that the majority of hunters do not know what a button buck looks like at a distance. They see its a deer, they have a permit, it ain't got antlers that are visible, and the harvest happens.
With increased DMP comes increased bb harvest, no way around it. Legal definitions of a buck are 3" tine(s) or greater. Even a 1" spike is considered antlerless. This has been the strongest argument against high harvest of does, and to a degree the folks who stated this as an issue were correct.
This one I do not have any easy answers for, unless you drive hunters out of the woods, which is exactly what higher AR/ QDM will do.
I believe hunter education, better education is the answer, as hunters are the ones doing the harvesting (predominantly). ENcouragement and reinforcement. But legislation? Not without a biological benefit/ advantage to the herds. Still comes back to hunter satisfaction, and that varies too much to base a law on.
The best we can do in this situation is know you're shooting at a deer, and know that a person isn't near the line of fire (in front and behind).
Our safety record proves out that NYS is one of the safest, if not the safest hunting state in the Union.
But, that isn't the issue. Guys who have DMPs and want to harvest an antlerless deer willidentify the deer as having no antlers, and if a safe shot is presented (and a quality shot, I hope), they take it. I would bet that the majority of hunters do not know what a button buck looks like at a distance. They see its a deer, they have a permit, it ain't got antlers that are visible, and the harvest happens.
With increased DMP comes increased bb harvest, no way around it. Legal definitions of a buck are 3" tine(s) or greater. Even a 1" spike is considered antlerless. This has been the strongest argument against high harvest of does, and to a degree the folks who stated this as an issue were correct.
This one I do not have any easy answers for, unless you drive hunters out of the woods, which is exactly what higher AR/ QDM will do.
I believe hunter education, better education is the answer, as hunters are the ones doing the harvesting (predominantly). ENcouragement and reinforcement. But legislation? Not without a biological benefit/ advantage to the herds. Still comes back to hunter satisfaction, and that varies too much to base a law on.
01-23-2007, 12:47 PM
#203
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location:
Posts: 130
RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
Now I am getting what you are saying about AR's, because the law says 3" if a person has a DMP they can legally take a 2-15/16" or smaller deer with it and, as so they don't have to legally know if it is a buck or not. NOw I can see where AR's can be a problem. It never dawned on me that I could take a BB with a DMPbut, even knowing that now I wouldn't! The law should be rewritten.
01-23-2007, 12:56 PM
#204
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 184
RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
ORIGINAL: BigJohn H
Now I am getting what you are saying about AR's, because the law says 3" if a person has a DMP they can legally take a 2-15/16" or smaller deer with it and, as so they don't have to legally know if it is a buck or not. NOw I can see where AR's can be a problem. It never dawned on me that I could take a BB with a DMPbut, even knowing that now I wouldn't! The law should be rewritten.
Now I am getting what you are saying about AR's, because the law says 3" if a person has a DMP they can legally take a 2-15/16" or smaller deer with it and, as so they don't have to legally know if it is a buck or not. NOw I can see where AR's can be a problem. It never dawned on me that I could take a BB with a DMPbut, even knowing that now I wouldn't! The law should be rewritten.
01-23-2007, 12:56 PM
#205
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Moravia NY USA
Posts: 2,164
RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
I believe hunter education, better education is the answer, as hunters are the ones doing the harvesting (predominantly). ENcouragement and reinforcement. But legislation? Not without a biological benefit/ advantage to the herds. Still comes back to hunter satisfaction, and that varies too much to base a law on.
Steve
01-23-2007, 06:59 PM
#206
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,102
RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
Like a lot of you I am searching for answers not assuming I already have them.I know how it seems to me with the experiences I have and what I see and all the literature I read about these topics.I do believe that from a management point of view,we should manage for the habitat first,the deer herd second and the hunter last.
I do not see why hunter satisfaction should not be part of the equation,you could reasonably argue that this has been done for many,many years with the key part of hunter satisfaction being giving hunters what they want in the way of seeing many deer.Either way we are manipulating harvest numbers to fullfil management objectives.Over the last several years the DEC has been much more in tune with at least attempting to arrive at a more appropriate balance.
There is a flip side to every thing and the satisfaction thing is no different.I have seen many instances in my home area where physically capable hunters have stopped hunting because of the low probability of them seeing a buck beyond a 1 1/2 year old.What is the average age of a deer hunter in NY? I am quite certain that it is over 45 years old.I seem to recall it was 48 years old.My wish is that we could pursue something that addresses every one's interest's in the order I previously stated.Habitat first,deer herd second,hunter last.
For those of you that are ready to jump at me and tell me that I just want to have it be made easier for me to kill bigger deer,I will tell you that I don't need anybody's help in that area,most every year I kill deer that are very good bucks for the area I hunt in.But I devote a tremendous amount of effort and time in to working toward having that happen.
I think we need to have a greater consideration for those outside of our home management units.Many of you may reside in area's where you don't see a problem,where you have a reasonable possibility of seeing older age bucks without losing your job or your marriage.
I want to throw out as questions a couple of things from a biological perspective,absolutely every thing I have ever read indicates that it is most beneficial to a deer herd to have a concise breeding period in which the very large majority of the doe's are bred in their first estrus cycle,the supposition here being that as a result of this fawns are dropped early enough to give them the greatest opportunity for nutritional benefits and size for survival going in to the winter.Is the stress on older age classes of bucks in a balanced herd because of the competition for breeding any more severe than the stress that a younger age class buckwould experience in an unbalanced herd where the young buck continued to breed doe's through their first,second and third estrus cycles? And in that scenario what are the implications as it relates to fawn drop,and the fawns ability to survive going forward?
I do not see why hunter satisfaction should not be part of the equation,you could reasonably argue that this has been done for many,many years with the key part of hunter satisfaction being giving hunters what they want in the way of seeing many deer.Either way we are manipulating harvest numbers to fullfil management objectives.Over the last several years the DEC has been much more in tune with at least attempting to arrive at a more appropriate balance.
There is a flip side to every thing and the satisfaction thing is no different.I have seen many instances in my home area where physically capable hunters have stopped hunting because of the low probability of them seeing a buck beyond a 1 1/2 year old.What is the average age of a deer hunter in NY? I am quite certain that it is over 45 years old.I seem to recall it was 48 years old.My wish is that we could pursue something that addresses every one's interest's in the order I previously stated.Habitat first,deer herd second,hunter last.
For those of you that are ready to jump at me and tell me that I just want to have it be made easier for me to kill bigger deer,I will tell you that I don't need anybody's help in that area,most every year I kill deer that are very good bucks for the area I hunt in.But I devote a tremendous amount of effort and time in to working toward having that happen.
I think we need to have a greater consideration for those outside of our home management units.Many of you may reside in area's where you don't see a problem,where you have a reasonable possibility of seeing older age bucks without losing your job or your marriage.
I want to throw out as questions a couple of things from a biological perspective,absolutely every thing I have ever read indicates that it is most beneficial to a deer herd to have a concise breeding period in which the very large majority of the doe's are bred in their first estrus cycle,the supposition here being that as a result of this fawns are dropped early enough to give them the greatest opportunity for nutritional benefits and size for survival going in to the winter.Is the stress on older age classes of bucks in a balanced herd because of the competition for breeding any more severe than the stress that a younger age class buckwould experience in an unbalanced herd where the young buck continued to breed doe's through their first,second and third estrus cycles? And in that scenario what are the implications as it relates to fawn drop,and the fawns ability to survive going forward?
01-24-2007, 12:16 PM
#207
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 184
RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
ORIGINAL: tsoc
Like a lot of you I am searching for answers not assuming I already have them.I know how it seems to me with the experiences I have and what I see and all the literature I read about these topics.I do believe that from a management point of view,we should manage for the habitat first,the deer herd second and the hunter last.
I do not see why hunter satisfaction should not be part of the equation,you could reasonably argue that this has been done for many,many years with the key part of hunter satisfaction being giving hunters what they want in the way of seeing many deer.Either way we are manipulating harvest numbers to fullfil management objectives.Over the last several years the DEC has been much more in tune with at least attempting to arrive at a more appropriate balance.
There is a flip side to every thing and the satisfaction thing is no different.I have seen many instances in my home area where physically capable hunters have stopped hunting because of the low probability of them seeing a buck beyond a 1 1/2 year old.What is the average age of a deer hunter in NY? I am quite certain that it is over 45 years old.I seem to recall it was 48 years old.My wish is that we could pursue something that addresses every one's interest's in the order I previously stated.Habitat first,deer herd second,hunter last.
For those of you that are ready to jump at me and tell me that I just want to have it be made easier for me to kill bigger deer,I will tell you that I don't need anybody's help in that area,most every year I kill deer that are very good bucks for the area I hunt in.But I devote a tremendous amount of effort and time in to working toward having that happen.
I think we need to have a greater consideration for those outside of our home management units.Many of you may reside in area's where you don't see a problem,where you have a reasonable possibility of seeing older age bucks without losing your job or your marriage.
I want to throw out as questions a couple of things from a biological perspective,absolutely every thing I have ever read indicates that it is most beneficial to a deer herd to have a concise breeding period in which the very large majority of the doe's are bred in their first estrus cycle,the supposition here being that as a result of this fawns are dropped early enough to give them the greatest opportunity for nutritional benefits and size for survival going in to the winter.Is the stress on older age classes of bucks in a balanced herd because of the competition for breeding any more severe than the stress that a younger age class buckwould experience in an unbalanced herd where the young buck continued to breed doe's through their first,second and third estrus cycles? And in that scenario what are the implications as it relates to fawn drop,and the fawns ability to survive going forward?
Like a lot of you I am searching for answers not assuming I already have them.I know how it seems to me with the experiences I have and what I see and all the literature I read about these topics.I do believe that from a management point of view,we should manage for the habitat first,the deer herd second and the hunter last.
I do not see why hunter satisfaction should not be part of the equation,you could reasonably argue that this has been done for many,many years with the key part of hunter satisfaction being giving hunters what they want in the way of seeing many deer.Either way we are manipulating harvest numbers to fullfil management objectives.Over the last several years the DEC has been much more in tune with at least attempting to arrive at a more appropriate balance.
There is a flip side to every thing and the satisfaction thing is no different.I have seen many instances in my home area where physically capable hunters have stopped hunting because of the low probability of them seeing a buck beyond a 1 1/2 year old.What is the average age of a deer hunter in NY? I am quite certain that it is over 45 years old.I seem to recall it was 48 years old.My wish is that we could pursue something that addresses every one's interest's in the order I previously stated.Habitat first,deer herd second,hunter last.
For those of you that are ready to jump at me and tell me that I just want to have it be made easier for me to kill bigger deer,I will tell you that I don't need anybody's help in that area,most every year I kill deer that are very good bucks for the area I hunt in.But I devote a tremendous amount of effort and time in to working toward having that happen.
I think we need to have a greater consideration for those outside of our home management units.Many of you may reside in area's where you don't see a problem,where you have a reasonable possibility of seeing older age bucks without losing your job or your marriage.
I want to throw out as questions a couple of things from a biological perspective,absolutely every thing I have ever read indicates that it is most beneficial to a deer herd to have a concise breeding period in which the very large majority of the doe's are bred in their first estrus cycle,the supposition here being that as a result of this fawns are dropped early enough to give them the greatest opportunity for nutritional benefits and size for survival going in to the winter.Is the stress on older age classes of bucks in a balanced herd because of the competition for breeding any more severe than the stress that a younger age class buckwould experience in an unbalanced herd where the young buck continued to breed doe's through their first,second and third estrus cycles? And in that scenario what are the implications as it relates to fawn drop,and the fawns ability to survive going forward?
Although I am a bit hazy on the specifics, I seem to recall something about what causes the "second rut", which in basic terms was explained that does who are not successfully bred during the first rut will go into a second estrus period. A third estrus cycle is rare.
Yes, the later a doe is bred during the rut, the later the fawn will be born in the Spring, and this does have an affect on a fawn's survival through their 1st winter.
And you have truly nailed the way to go in this post. In order to build a good house, one must first build the foundation. Habitat is the foundation. Great post...
01-25-2007, 02:22 PM
#208
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Moravia NY USA
Posts: 2,164
RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
Info on buck/doe ratios from a North Carolina wildlife biologist.
This is from a thread here: http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1952006
Basically telling us that even in a high pressured area, birth rates make it impossible for the ratio to be as bad as sometimes feel.
Steve
The sex ratio your observations suggest may not be indicative of the true sex ratio of the local herd. Behavior differences may account for much of the discrepancy: bucks are generally more secretive and less predictable than does, and therefore less likely to be seen. Also, fawns are born into a deer herd at a 50/50 ratio, and you would expect a herd that received little hunting pressure to maintain a sex ratio along those lines. Skewed sex ratios generally result from harvesting most of the bucks and very few does from the population. In heavily hunted populations the actual sex ratio rarely exceeds 2.5-3 does/buck, although the observed sex ratio may be considerably higher than that.
Basically telling us that even in a high pressured area, birth rates make it impossible for the ratio to be as bad as sometimes feel.
Steve
01-25-2007, 02:29 PM
#209
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 184
RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
ORIGINAL: SteveBNy
Info on buck/doe ratios from a North Carolina wildlife biologist.
This is from a thread here: http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1952006
Basically telling us that even in a high pressured area, birth rates make it impossible for the ratio to be as bad as sometimes feel.
Steve
Info on buck/doe ratios from a North Carolina wildlife biologist.
The sex ratio your observations suggest may not be indicative of the true sex ratio of the local herd. Behavior differences may account for much of the discrepancy: bucks are generally more secretive and less predictable than does, and therefore less likely to be seen. Also, fawns are born into a deer herd at a 50/50 ratio, and you would expect a herd that received little hunting pressure to maintain a sex ratio along those lines. Skewed sex ratios generally result from harvesting most of the bucks and very few does from the population. In heavily hunted populations the actual sex ratio rarely exceeds 2.5-3 does/buck, although the observed sex ratio may be considerably higher than that.
Basically telling us that even in a high pressured area, birth rates make it impossible for the ratio to be as bad as sometimes feel.
Steve
Recruitment of new bucks does suffer with increased Doe management. That is unfortunately the other edge of the sword. Education is the critical link to shoring that problem up.
01-26-2007, 02:05 PM
#210
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location:
Posts: 87
RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
ok i gotta say it, yes button bucks get killed accidentally, but that is not the big problem here..let it go, it happens but not the majority of doe tags are filled with button bucks....nobody i knows intentionally harvest a small doe or buck, therefore illiminating a yearling being killed i.e. button buck.