RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

Still haven't answered my question, How did Ohio turn into such a big buck producer with no AR? What states have shown the AR's improve B/D ratios, and produce a better deer genetically?

They kill as many deer in Ohio as they do in NY and have a good balance of buck/doe ratios in most areas. Basically, they only have 2/3s the land area of NYS to do it in. Most of western Ohio is farm fields, and no woods.

Lets see, kill off the 1.5-2.5 yo bucks, you mean the ones that are just getting to a good breeding age? Like I said the 6-10 pt, 14-16 inchrack spread deer "basket racks". Then we can shot 2 or 3 of them to brag about. At the end of the season you are left with spikes and forks to breed the does that haven't been bread. Works for me! Yeah, a few will make it through to be 3.5 but not many, and you won't be much better off than you are now

It was proven this year, the best way go grow big bucks is to not have snow during the gun season(and the previous season). Without snow, half of the hunters don't know there is a deer in the woods with them. No tracks, no deer, so they move on or give up. When there is snow on the ground, people stay on the deer (regardless of size or sex) until something dies. Especially if its buck, so I don't think the 1.5 to 2.5 would fare any better than spikes with snow on the gound. The next season you would see a lot of sub legal deer, plus these would be your breeders, with all the older bucks in the freezer.

Screw the AR and allow only 1 buck, any size, any season, butas many does as the DEC deems needed to keep things in balance.

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

This is typical of these type of conversations.People start out polite and courteous,and when enough people don't see the obvious intelligence of those in the know,those in the know begin to degrade the ability of the others conclusions or opinion.There are experts in every field who are considered genius's yet they have directly opposite opinions.I have heard reference to studies and statistics supporting that AR's wont work and I had PM'd Doctari with my email address,yet nothing has been forwarded to me.
I am in favor of change,it can come unit by unit as it should but something needs to change.We will ever have the funding or procedures in place for the collection of sufficient data or enforcement?I am guessing probably not.
We need to work toward changing the culture,and changing our present system.A one buck limit per entire hunting season,gives the hunters who wish to shoot any buck they care to that opportunity and takes the pressure of fby imposing the one buck rule.A limited firearms season.a week,two 3 day seasons,away from the rut,could be implemented to further assist.These are just idea's not,things to think about.If we wait for the state to get it together we will all be in the ground.
Let's stop bickering and look to arrive at a conclusion that meets everyone's desires and needs!

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

SO DON'T SHOOT ONE!!!Why is it sad you have to let a deer live??? It'sYOUR choice, not the DEC's,not the bucks. Why do you feel you must kill a "nice buck" every year??? I didn't kill a buck thisyear, big deal. I don't feel any less a of hunter, andI had a great time HUNTING.

It still sounds like you people want to turn HUNTING into SHOOTING. You look over all the deer around you, and pick the one you want to SHOOT.Like doctariAFC said, you all have been watching too many hunting shows. Remember, these are taped on private property under very controlled conditions.

So everydeer that walks through the woods should be 1.5-3.5 yo???

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

Tsoc - what many of those opposed to AR are saying is give us some sound, factual reasons to support it.
I seldom if ever see a request for mandatory AR backed with any.
Desires are not reasons and no one "needs" bigger bucks.
Steve

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

Sent you harvest info and the Oct Meeting Minutes last night. If you would like anything else, let me know, but please try to be specific in your requests. It saves me time in trying to find useful info.

In terms of harvest trends over the past 10 years, I have this info, but not to the detail level of per WMU. Its a top-line total statewide harvest.

You'll notice the harvest file I sent onto you is in excel. The originals came in as text files, and I can do nothing with those, so I imported the text into excel. When the official 2006 harvest report is released, I will be adding that to the excel workbook, as to start getting some trending information per WMU across a number of years.

Also bear in mind that the numbers are representative of the harvest, and do not include the additional mortality estimates (deer-car, predation, starvation and winter kills, etc). I have requested a few times to get that information from the State, but, they have yet to send it onto me, probably because they are busy. I have other options, too, for information sources, such as some of my colleagues, who sit on the Deer Management Advisory boards, but the info I would receive from them is specific only to the WMUs their specific board deals with. That's a lot of leg work to get to a full state picture going that route.

Again, if you could provide some very specific requests in terms of information needs, it would help me out tremendously.

CNYGUY brought up another great point - weather conditions. Especially snow cover. He hit the nail on the head with this one, and in fact we talk about this every year at camp. WHen the snow is on the ground, it is far easier to see deer, as they stand out a bit better against the white backdrop. When no snow.....it can seem like the deer have Klingon cloaking devices on, demanding far more from the hunter, and making the hunting experience that much more challenging. YOu also have winds that can be different season to season. THis year we had more than a few days where I hunt where the winds were fromm a fairly constant direction. This means deer. WHen the winds are swirling out of every direction - no deer, they smell you and hunker down.

Treestands, too, have had a somewhat negative affect on deer numbers. 30 years ago, not too many hunted from treestands. Now, with the affordable and very safe portable stands, climbers, lock ons, ladders, etc, more hunters are taking to the trees in an effort to reduce potential detection. How many of you guys pushing for AR hunt solely from the ground? Give it a try, go a season on the ground, and report back how many bucks you saw and actually got a quality opportunity on?

But this is now surprise. We have already established that a lot of these "great ideas" (AR/ QDM) were first "stumbled upon" by guys watching TV shows. HOw many of these televised deer hunting shows do you see a hunter hunting from the ground? MOst are in treestands - and that sells you on using treestands. They talk with the landowner, and discuss their food plots, and it sells you on food plots. They discuss how they have chosen to go the QDM route on their property, showing off monster racks as the result, and you're sold on QDM. The power of television!

Too bad nature ins't a TV show, eh?

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

Exactly. Hey, last night I sent Tsoc the harvest reports for 2004 and 2005, by WMU (I'll have 2006 in another few days, start of Feb at the latest). As I mentioned in the previous post, 10 year trends are statewide (haven't sent that one, because its totals, not WMU, or County, or Region specific) totals, so I am compiling the info with the specifics myself in excel spreadsheets (one workbook) to be able to trend it myself.

But one thing that is readily apparent from the information I sent to Tsoc is the lack of detail. Bucks and antlerless - that's it. It does illustrate the severe insufficiencies in the reporting we have in NYS. The reports and information are fine for overall numbers control and desired number of bucks per sq mile. Not sufficient for age structure or Buck:Doe ratio.

We have a long way to go before we can start down the road of a more granular approach to deer management. And we still haven't touched on habitat management, either.

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

For the guys against AR's...do you guys think NY should do away with the current AR of 3" spikes??

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

So ARs mean if I shoot a deer with less than 3 pointson one side, or its not wider than the ears, I can fill my antlerless tag with that deer??? Sweet! Then I can keep hunting for the big boy.

Be real, you have to draw the line between antlered and antlerless somewhere. EVERY state that I have hunted in has a minimum length for spikes to seperate doe/bucks. I'm of the opinion if you shoot a button buck, it counts toward your buck tag, if it has "nads", you killed a buck.

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

Steve,
We all seek a particular experience when hunting deer.None of need to kill deer.Very few of us need the meat,or would be imposed upon if we didn't have it.So we hunt for a particular experience.
I have read much in the way of biological debates on both sides of this matter,honestly I have never kept or categorized these things because I didn't think I would be using them to defend a position.The struggle with all of this is to find objectivity,it is human nature to gravitate toward conclusions,theories or statistics that support what we would care to see.
From the little knowledge that I have I think habitat health is first and foremost and that relating to the deer herd would be a discussion about the carrying capacity of the land.Beyond that I wonder (I don't have a definitive answer)how a herd so out of balance as it relates to age structure and perhaps older buck to doe ratio's can be considered healthy.I don't know the answer but logically it doesn't make sense to me.
So why not implement things that work toward everyone having an opportunity at an experience that will be satisfying to them?

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

No, because this has a direct and biologically beneficial reason behind it. To identify whether you're target is a male or a female, and this was implemented because 3" should be visible, where smaller antlers or buttons may not be. THis was in place to assure herd growth/ restoration as this AR identifies male vs female, and the females are the obvious source of new fawns, new recruits.

That's an AR with a biological benefit to the herd. It is in place to help protect the Does. Hope that helps.