RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

You would make a great politician![&:]

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

So, is that your answer to the questions I posed in my last post?

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

They are????

I'm not. I amfor fewer but bigger deer, but not by the "AR" method. If you want to practice "AR" on theland you hunt, great. I've been doing it for years, but it will not automatically bring significantly bigger deer to the entire state. You will just shoot more basket racked 6 and 8's. These deer still won't be at their potential, and they will be on someones bragging pole with a whopping 16 inch spread. Big deal. NOBODY HAS PROVEN MANDATED AR's HAVE A LONG TERM BENEFIT TO THE OVERALL A DEER POPULATION, STATEWIDE. Like I said before, How did Ohio develop such a huge population of GIANT BUCKS without "AR's" ??? Please answer this before you go on about implementing more red tape for hunters.

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

That's about right. But, how dare you inject truth into this debate! What's the matter with you?? You're..... you're...... you're MEAN!!!

:D

Sorry, that moonbat moment happened to "slip out"

Well said....

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

The reason for Ar's is most hunters won't let a small buck walk, regardless of it's rack size. I have seen several deer taken that had rack of 4 points or less this year, what a waste. Ar's are not necessary to promote larger antlers however,killing off the best genetic base weakens the herd and their chances of surviving. So how about this, the DEC hands out Doe tags which have to be filled before you get a buck tag. The doe has to be taken to a check-in station and at that point you are issued a buck tag. OR the DEC closes bucks to hunting for 2 seasons and all we can hunt are doe. I prefer to take a doe firstand did just that this season, filling my freezer is more important to me than hanging a rack on my wall.

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

Earn a buck program. Yes, that one has been also discussed. Heck this year I filled two doe tags, and missed a whopper ten point, my bad. But, there's a double-edged sword to the earn a buck program, and again goes back to information collection. I asked Region 9 Big Game Biologist Tim Speirto (he replaced retired Jim Snyder) about the affects higher DMP issuance had on button buck mortality, could more DMPs equate to more button bucks being harvested. The answer, although not confirmed through data collection (because they don't collect that data) is yes, the more DMPs are issued, and the more hunters are encouraged to harvest antlerless deer, the higher the potential for more button bucks getting whacked, which again puts us in a pickle concerningthe desire for more bucks?

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

AR is not complex.It's a start!It is a good way to start increasing the amount of bucks that are able to walk another year. Believe me, i've seen some beautiful bucks aged at 2.5 that were bigger than basket racks especially when they have genetics on their side. If you let 18 month old bucks live another year, the chances of 2.5 year oldsthe chances of gettingbucks to be 3.5 years old only increases because some of those bucks will make it. Now that's a step in the positive direction, at least in the part of the state I hunt. A 3.5 year old buck is a freak of nature nowadays. It's true!

Implimentation could start by installing a law limiting the harvest of juvinile 1.5 year old bucks. Like in the pilot program, 3 points or better on one side. Something like this would help.You question the idea of population control and AR, Simple, harvest more does and less bucks. Why does every hunter get a buck tag? They don't always get a doe tag? Tradition??????? Mans way and not Natures way?????? DEC seems to know how many does need to be harvested each year per particular WMU.......why aren't they doing this for bucks too? We know nature would show a 1:1 ratio of buck to doe, why aren't we managing it the same way? Owe, because everyone deserves a buck? That's the wrong way to think about herd managment imho.

As far as enforcement, hunters and landowners will turn in law breakers and this has alreadyoccured in 3J wmu. A farmer, I personally know, had 2 guys arrested because they shot spike horns in the pilot program area in which his farm resides. They were reported by hunters who were obeying the AR law. We all know more enforcement would be necessary with AR or new management techniques but most lands noware private and most law breakers don't go undetected. Word gets around. We can call the local manicipalities, county Sheriffs, State Police or DEC officers in our area. Money from our hunting license sales could go toward enforcement and hiring more game wardens. It's not much compared to temperary projects the DECis always funding and don't effect hardly any of us.

Why do fellow hunters who are against AR always bring up the idea that AR don't improve herd health? Why must scientific data always be our standard when deer will always survive and adapt to all the situations they have in history,,,,,loss of habitat, farms, development, food, etc.????? Can't we be happy that reversing the current system of AR would help give more hunters a chance at harvesting a more mature buck? Mother Nature did not intend to have the out of wack system we have in place and buck/doe ratios we have produced with our current herd program.How would nature intend for the NY herd to look? this should be our goal, not everyone deserves a buck mentality that is currently being practiced.

I would sacrifice not taking a buck for a year or two and enforcing a all doe season. I would promote an exclusive "all deer check station" where we have to bring a doe that we harvested before a buck tag " might" be issued. I pass multiple bucks up every year to have a chance at a 2.5 year old and this is a sad way to hunt. If whole counties in Illinios can manage nice deer herds, or other states like Texas,Kansas, Iowa, and increase local and state revenue...well then what is NYS waiting for?

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

That is just the type of "trophy hunting" jargon that puts people off to ARs. Why is my 4 point a waste when it is legally and ethically harvested? And why is it a waste when it is in my freezer? Why is it a waste when I have an excellent day in the woods or times at hunting camp, maybe with family or friends. Who are you or anyone to tell me what is a waste. I am not totally against or for some type of "antler restriction", but that type of statement makes me lean toward the against side of the debate.

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

[quote I have seen several deer taken that had rack of 4 points or less this year, what a waste.][/quote]

Waste!! To who?? Certainly not the legal hunter who took him!!

A waste to those who think AR will give them the same conditions as we can see 24/7 on the hunting/shooting shows - you know the ones where they sit in a stand on a huge private track of land with almost no hunting pressure - watch the bucks parade by until the right "shooter" stops and poses.

Most hunter's? According to tmeservey, huge numbers of hunters support AR. Since they support it and want to make it mandatory, they ALL must be passing on "non-shooters" now. Otherwise they would be blatant hypocrites - true? Talk the talk then walk the walk.


As Doc and I both have said, there is no evidence to support this, especially in central and western NY. I have already listed the info from studies showing it could actually hurt here as it has in other states.
Especially with the lack of any hard data - and the answers we are waiting for to Doc's questions back a couple posts.

Right now I,as well as most here in CNY, are against mandatory AR based on the studies and non emotional facts I've seen.
Show me some sound, factual, scientific reasons to make a great voluntary program mandatory, and I will support it.

Unsubstantiated opinions, and "should work" statements will not change me.

Steve

RE: New York Antler Restrictions State Wide?
 

Do you have any proof to back this claim up? If so, please present it. But you do not, because no proof exists. Wishful thinking at best. Hey, its noble, and I, along with many others pass on small bucks voluntarily. Not because of a small rack, but because of the small body. I like lots of meat and an 8-point is typically larger than a spike or a fork. But, regardless, Some 1 1/2 yr olds are larger than some 2 1/2 yr olds. Some 2 1/2 yr olds have superior racks to some 5 1/2 yr olds. Your claim is subjective, not objective as no data substantiates it.

Ok, so how do you age the deer in the woods? Ask for their birth certificate? What about higher button buck mortality rates when you increase the DMPs? Nothing about that. Really, you "know" nature sets up 1:1 buck:doe ratios? I got news for you... Nature's only set up is as many animals as the land can support. There is no grand design for natural buck:doe ratio. That is the funniest thing I ever heard of. Watch another Dr. Deer program.


Well I am glad they are enforcing the statute in these limited WMUs. But how many poaching calls went unanswered? Probably a lot more than were even taken from this pilot program. I can find out, too. Would take me a few days, maybe a week, but I can find out.

because it doesn't. Ask any wildlife biologist and they will confirm it. Healthy balance of numbers to what the land can sustain, no overcrowding and good habitat keep herds healthy. Buck:Doe ratios do not equate to a healthy herd, nor even a natural herd. Too many dynamics in nature and anyone who has spent any time emersed in natgure knows this reality all too well.

I don't take a buck every year as it is. So whatis the point of that statement? OMG. Again, you make some pretty wild claims without backing them up. Do I have to dig out the numbers from IL, TX, KA,IA as well (I have them)....

We do noot have the reporting, we do not have the need, we do not have the reason. All we have are emotional nonsensical argumentsby a few disgruntled hunters whopass on smaller bucks, only to find out the guy hunting the property next door shot it, and that makes you mad. TOO BAD. The deer do not belong to you, they belong to nature. Everyone has the same right and chance to harvest a deer, and by you imposing your own standards of harvest onto another huntershows elitism and selfishness. "Think like I think, do like I do". And if you don't, well let's passs a law so everyonehas to abideby what I want.

Support your claims with scientific proof, hard information that can be debated. The emotional and personal desires are the last thing that is relavent when we are talking about management of very valuable, and living resources. Start behaving like thedeer and hunting come first, rather than your own personal desire to have people hunt the way you hunt.