One buck rule
 

How do you guys feel about a one buck rule in NY. I think it should happen. Rich

RE: One buck rule
 

I do too!!!

RE: One buck rule
 

Why? We have the deer, well at least there are plenty where I hunt. It's been a long time since I had a bow season where I didn't pass a few buck before taking one. Nearly the same in gun season too. Why would we want to reduce our options? Reducing the buck take may make sense in regions where a buck is hard to find but that certainly isn't the case everywhere. I like it the way it is. I can take a nice buck in bow season and still have the chance'/option to do it again in gun season. I think a lot of guys would loose interest in hunting with a gun if they suddenly couldn't take a buck.

Given the serious loss of hunters in NY, seems to me we should be looking for ways to increase the options a hunter has not reduce them.

RE: One buck rule
 

In the units I hunt in I would definitely be in favor of it.

RE: One buck rule
 

i dont think one buck rule would be right to those of us that hunt with bows,muzzle loaders and rifles of shot guns.but i do think putting an antler restriction would be god in all counties,so the litlle ones can grow ,so we all can start to see more mature bucks.and if your hunting for meat take some does,why take a small buck?

RE: One buck rule
 

Good Morning Sylvan,
I would like to hear some of your suggestions to increase hunter options. I'm not sure where you hunt from, but like others, in my area the buck to doe ratio is low. However, I do see alot of spikes, 4 pters, and 6 pters prior to gun season, then it's a major drop from then on due to hunter kills. My concern is many hunters are seeing less mature bucks invarious areas and think an AR, one Buck or AR combined with 18" Spread rule should be impleamented to increase the buck to doe ratio and age levels of the harvested bucks.

I'm new to hunting, so help me understand your position. Some post here indicate that hunters shoot young bucks for the tender meat, but refuse to shoot young does because they feel their killing of the future deer.Some feel the experience in hunting is that they go into the woods and shoot anything that wanders by, (especially any size buck) and that consitutes a fun, succesful hunt. And I can see their point, most only get a week to hunt and can't wait to get in the woods and harvest a deer, any deer. Some only hunt for the meat, to feed the family. I see their point too. So for those of us that feel a fun, succesful hunt is in the harvest of a mature buck, how can that be accomplished if the smaller deer are being harvested at an 90% rate. How can all of us get our cake and eat it to.

Off the subject of harvesting small bucks, whats your position on crossbows in NY. I for one would like to see it as an option for our hunters.

Thanks, Rod.

RE: One buck rule
 

Wow, someone who can approach this subject unselfishly and with a rational mind. How refreshing!
Well let me start by saying that I can't speak for all of NY state but only my little piece of it. In my little piece I reject totally the premise that mature buck are that rare. Now granted, I'm retired and have a lot of time to hunt, and do, and I'm fortunate enough to be able to hunt a fair amount of good private land but still, as far as I can tell mature whitetail buck are taken pretty much everywhere in NY under the current rules. So we are not talking about not having the option to hunt them but about how to increase the chances of getting one for those that it's important to. Seems that you and I both understand that for many, it's not important at all. I might argue that it's not important enough to most hunters and totally eliminating their current option of taking a small buck wouldn't balance against the wants of a few to merely increase their chances of taking a large mature one. But no matter, even if it's the wants of a few, the desire is a legitimate one and the question you posed was how to satisfy both camps. I really don't think it is possible to do that on a state wide basis so I would suggest it's done kind of piece meal. Why not set aside given areas kind of like they do now with the trophy sections on streams. I won't suggest specific details right now as that would take some serious planning but it seems that kind of approach might indeed let everybody have their cake and eat it too.
With regard to xbows. Certainly. I wouldn't be interested myself but an xbow season would certainly increase our options and might get a few more youngin interested in hunting.

RE: One buck rule
 

I think that there should be a 3 buck rule...
One for bow, one for shotgun, and one for muzzleloader

RE: One buck rule
 

I am in favor of a one buck rule.

RE: One buck rule
 

Hard to agree with one buck per session when the deer population across the state is so varied. In the area that I hunt (4W), a one deer per session may be more appropriate as the deer population is still way down. I would much rather see a management plan that addressess the imbalance in the age structure of the deer population. I know that not everyone is a big fan of AR, as it does mean a possible sacrifice for the first couple of years butI doubt many on this site would pass an 8 pointerfor a spike.

RE: One buck rule
 

One buck sounds good to me.

RE: One buck rule
 

How about keep the 2 buck rule. 1 in archery and 1 in gun season but the 2nd buck must be 4 on a side?

RE: One buck rule
 

Thanks for the response. I know that central NY area, don't know the WMU off hand tried to implement an AR restriction in their area and it was rejected. Maybe DEC should cast a poll to each hunter in varioues WMU area's and find out if they would want the restriction(s). If so, pass the law in those area's rather than a broad NY restriction. This would help those in the needed areas without effecting others, like yourself, in your area. Like you I spend alot of time afield and have more opportunity to see more deer, and I can state that mature deer are few in the area. So I am one of the few that would like to increase my odds of harvesting a large antlered mature deer and can go an entire year without killing one to achieve my goal. With that said, and as you stated, for some it's not that important and I respect that. We all need to find a way to statisfy all the hunters, even though that does sound very niave of me.:eek: Thanks, Rod.

RE: One buck rule
 

Thought that I had in the stand tonight:
How about you get a 2nd buck tag if the first is checked in and aged at 3 1/2 or older.

Many whosupport AR claim they do it for "health" of the herd and not trophy management. Give them a chance to prove it. Shoot a mature deer first and you get to keep hunting - shoot a young one and you are done.

Steve

RE: One buck rule
 

Hate the 1 buck idea. I really can't undersstand why people are entertaining this. The replies should have what the individuals hunt (ie - bow, gun, ML) I assume most that like the idea hunt with gun only (I could be wrong). I hunt with all 3 and want the opportunity to do so each year. As far as buck/doe ratios, are we again trying to manage for trophy deer hunting?? Why not shoot more doe to get a "better" buck to doe ratio? (I don't reallly agree with that either - seems as "foolish" as 1 buck plan). However, I don't necessarily think the second buck with some sort of antler restriction is a bad idea. Maybe would be a "compromise". However, I don't know why we would need a compromise, because I don't think this 1 buck idea is/will go anywhere (don't hear about or see it in the DEC/sportsmens clubs/etc. circles).

RE: One buck rule
 

Why do we need to give them a chance to prove it?? Many think the deer heard is fine and have no problem continuing to hunt as we have for years. Bowhunting is time consuming and hard enough as it is. Why "punish" someone for being lucky enough to harvest a 3 point buck, spike, 5 point, etc. I had gone 2 years without the opportunity to take doe (no permits) and I didn't complain.But I would be ratherPOed if someone decides that my hunting is over (I get a buck with my bow)because they want to have "better" buck/doe ratios. I'm just not buying it.

RE: One buck rule
 

isent it a one buck rule? just one with the bow and one with the gun. whats wrong with that?

RE: One buck rule
 

DB - I'm not advocating it - just throwing out stuff to see what sticks. Just a dig at what I view is the disingenuous claim of most AR advocates that they are QDM when the majority just would like have it easier to take a "quality" (whatever that is) buck. And they want everyone else to follow their methods only - read mandatory.

I'm in southern 7j and 7h and agree with you. There are hunt-able numbers of true mature deer here if that's what you want. To manipulate their their number to obtain a higher percentage would only lower their uniqueness.

I think ANY AND ALL changes need to be done slowly, with great for-thought, a way to review measure impact, and DONE ONLY at a WMU level or lower.

Their is no universal problem in the state - so NO universal changes should be attempted.

Steve

RE: One buck rule
 

Steve, isn't that what I was saying. That each area is different for various reasonsand any effects on the deer heard. I agree, shoot more doe's, but in my area they where limited. 5 guys, including myself didn't get doe tags this year for rifle season. I wouldn't want to limit someone's hunting, but look at ways to improve it in certain area that may need it. Seems alot of the post are stating they are not seeing as many deer and deer harvest seems to be down since 2002. I'm just looking for some answers, suggestions and theories.

What is your suggestion? None, because your area is fine and the heck with the rest of us? Looking to band hunters together for the common good, so if as a collective most hunters in NY think their hunting experience is great the way it is, so be it. If not, lets just discuss options. Yes, what is quality deer? Balance healthy heard with a good percentage being mature bucks. So I like to feed the deer year round so they are a little beefier when I or friends and family harvest them. No harm, no fowl. Just giving back to the enviroment for all wildlife, rather then just taking. But thats just me, I'm not imposing that belief on anyone. The increase in sightings this year on my property have been tremendous, but manyhunters statedeer numbers are down and I'm just trying to help find solutions. You?

RE: One buck rule
 

I cannot speak for the rest of NY but I am definitely in favor of a 1 buck rule and no doe permits for my area. 3c and 3j Ulster County NY.

RE: One buck rule
 

Reread my posts on this and you will see I never say this.
This is pretty much my opinion:
I agree totally that your area may need help and will support and changes they are well researched and can be monitored for real results.

I will also fight any suggestions for a state wide change that would have primary benefit to only yours and a few other areas and is not needed in mine.

Good luck
Steve


Steve

RE: One buck rule
 

You're the man!

RE: One buck rule
 

I wouldn't be for a 1 buck rule. My reasons are simple. If a bowhunter or muzzleload hunter harvested a buck in the early season. Then didn't recieve a DMP tag, his season would be over come Reg. seasons. He'd be done hunting until late season.
Presently a hunter canharvest a buck in early season, and another during Reg. season. Many hunters travel throughout the state & hunt different WMU's., and other woods. The only way a hunter can take 3 bucks during a yr season is if they have a leftover Reg. season tag from the previous yr. , and hunt the last 4 days of Sept. in the Northern tier with a bow.
The only thing I might be for is a hunter can take only 1 buck in a WMU. His 2nd buck has to be harvested in another WMU.

RE: One buck rule
 

So again I ask, what suggestions would you have that are specfic to the issue, except a vague response of, slow with great for-thought? You don't agree with the one buck rule or AR or spread guidelines? Or do you, but only in needed area's that are voted on by the hunters in that specfic WMU as I was alluding to?I agree with you that if your area is fine, then place no restrictions on it. I just want to get my area to your area's level, that's all. Sure, lets take it slow, but lets discuss options rather than shoot any idea's down. I'm definantely open to idea's.

RE: One buck rule
 

I don't know 1st hand what the problems are in your area so why would my input matter? Sorry if that seems vague to you, butI personally would place a much higher value on info provided by thoseaffected 1st hand and not mine.

Come up with ideas that will help all hunters in your area, and you will have my full support.

I could support a one buck rule - again in those specific areas demonstrating need where it could help.

I will not support mandatory Ar of any kind anywhere. Regardless of what some Pa hunters feel, I do not believe its value has been demonstrated. In fact, some states down south where it has been in effect for much longer are seeing negative results - "hygrading" and actual decrease in the rack size.

If somehow it did produce larger racks, I would still be anti for 2 reasons:
First - any mature deer now is special but available in most areas. Restrictions geared to produce higher %'s would to me, lesson their uniqueness.
Second - these days, areas with the reputation for big bucks quickly become areas few can hunt. Outfitters or clubs acquire the hunting rights and the majority of local hunters lose any access to land. At $3000 plus for a 5 day hunt, how many people that live in or near Pike County Illinois(example) ever get to hunt there.

I wish there was easy answers to produce the balance we all would like - I don't have any but like you, seek them and are eager to listen.

Steve

RE: One buck rule
 

Point taken Steve, then I do feel where somewhat on the same page, just that I'm not explainling myself clearly and that's my fault. At least we both agree we (I) would like some easy answers or plan to help increase deer population as well as achieving antler size, in my area or those that are having similar issues. Not to be mis-understood, I'm no trophy hunter, but the lack of seeing such bucks in my area is a real bummer.[&o]

Also, I gather from a few other post (those that are having a bad or good year in NY, may boil down to if they are hunting private or public land. I know thats another post in itself.

Like you, I don't have the answers, but the eagerness to learn the pro's and con's of all proposed plans. Thanks for you time and input!:)

RE: One buck rule
 

I thought we where actually pretty close.:D

Steve

RE: One buck rule
 

I like the one buck rule, Theres not that many deer up here:(

RE: One buck rule
 

In fairness it should be a unit by unit consideration.As some have stated their populations are fine and others have stated that their area's are lacking.In 3a and 3c the population is not that strong,there are pockets that hold plenty of deer (of course mostly doe's,way out of balance)and there are area's that are completely void.In the last couple of years,(not this year) I have been on snow up high in these units and walked for miles never cutting a track.
I am a three season hunter and it would not bother me a bit if I was restricted to one buck,I could still fill a muzzleloader or late season archery tag with a doe,even if I drew no management permit or permits.

RE: One buck rule
 

i think theres more bucks than we think, i hunted hard since october and havent gotten one buck, and actually only seen 1 in all that time, i checked my trail camera, wich is over some bait (i dont hunt any where near) and 6 bucks visited itin 2 days than the batterys died from flashing so much.
If we could bait we would do so much better its not even funny, the deer were actually coming out in the middle of the day to eat before the other deer, even when we had those 70+ winter heat waves

RE: One buck rule
 

Be aware if you are baiting in NY, you are breaking the law - FYI.

Steve

RE: One buck rule
 

your aloud to feed the deer, you just can hunt any where near that, wich is what im doing...

RE: One buck rule
 

Better check the current regs - it has been illegal to feed for at least 2 years since they discovered CWD in NY.

Don't need to get in trouble.

Steve

RE: One buck rule
 

Oh boy.... Here we go again....

For starters, the Law concerning feeding wildlife in NYS is pretty clear. IT IS ILLEGAL. Exemption is for wild birds, and "incidental" feeding of other animal through seed dropping out of the feeder. YOU CANNOT FEED DEER IN NYS AT ALL. Hunting or non-hunting.

Now, you may improve your property through planting food plots, but spreading corn, apples, salt licks, anything "unnatural", meaning not rooted in the ground, growing food, is 100% illegal, and the DEC and NYS stregnthened this law after CWD was discovered in Oneida County.

Next - One Buck Rule. I see many on this thread are thumping for a one buck rule. Yet I see no factual information to support this move, or even illustrate that it is important. WMU specific or statewide, I challenge anyone in here to present the harvest numbers to support this One Buck Rule.

Here, I'll save you the time. According to the Region 9 Sr. Wildlife Biologist, the one buck rule is a smoke screen put forth by a small group of hunters. This actually came forth from the CNY Whitetails QDM proposal for Region 7, which got properly and rightfully shot down.

Here are the realities of the harvest, based on 2005 numbers. In 2005, @ 89,000 bucks were harvested by roughly 495,000 licensed hunters in NYS. Doing the basic math, this means nearly 18% of NY hunters successfuly harvested an antlered animal. In actuality, according to reported harvest figured, the real success rate was roughly 14% of NY hunters harvested one buck in 2005, with between 3% and 4% of those successful hunters reporting an additional buck harvested (2 bucks) - One buck during either early archery or extended and one buck during regular season. This is straight from the DEC, folks. This is also a rate that is historically shown to be the case, year in and year out.

So, let's take that 3% - 4% number, because that is the figure which will be affected by the one buck proposal. Based on 89,000 bucks harvested in 2005, the numbers would be between 2,670 bucks, statewide and 3,560 bucks, again, statewide. Considering the overall deer population is currently estimated at nearly 1 million animals, and, taking this at face vaule, the one buck per hunter rule would affect 0.4% of the deer herd numbers (less than 1/2 of a %). The bottom line is this, despite the emotional agruments, the one buck per hunter rule does NOTHING but restrict hunter opportunity. No biologicalbenefit whatsoever. But what this will indeed do is drive more hunters away. Heck, LY NY hunting witnessed a 10% decline in license sales, directly attributed to a 35% reduction in DMP issuance. Early returns this year show a 5% increase in license sales, with many believing that the 5% rise in DMP issuance this year over last year as the primary reason.

So, if we are to believe (and we have no real reason not to) that license sales are affected negatively by reduction in harvest opportunity, and affected positively by increases in harvest opportunity, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know the one buck per hunter rule would do far more harm to NYS Hunters than the benefit (nil) to the deer herds.

For some exact information on this, please contact the NYS DEC.

RE: One buck rule
 

Doc - welcome!

Steve

RE: One buck rule
 

Thanks my friend.... How's the season been for you? I've managed two flatheads, missed two bucks, includingthe big 10-point I had patterned starting in Sept. Hoping ML will bring him back out to play. I want a do over!!

RE: One buck rule
 

Excellent post doctariAFC and welcome! I look forward to hearing more from you!

Exactly my original point!
"Given the serious loss of hunters in NY, seems to me we should be looking for ways to increase the options a hunter has not reduce them. "

RE: One buck rule
 

1 doe last day of bow (won't talk about the missed one) - 7 yds can be a tough shot!:D
Passed a bunch of young bucks - saw a couple good ones at a distance.

2 does in gun - several real nice bucks taken around me.

Big doe at legal 1st light for mz yesterday.
Freezer full - looking for Mr big the last couple days left to me.

Good luck!
Steve

RE: One buck rule
 

Thanks Sylvan, and you are on the money. Nice to see. What part of Upstate NY are you in/ hunt? I'm in Tonawanda (near Buffalo), hunt DMU 9R - Randolph, 9S - Allegany State Park, 9H - Holland/ Colden/ Collins,9J - W Chautauqua County, and 9A - basically NiagaraCounty.... Many deer this year, including large, mature and very smart bucks.

Where you at and what have you seen this year?

RE: One buck rule
 

8W. Saw a pretty good improvement this year over last. Passed several small bucks in bow and saw 3 130 ish +. Managed to take one of them, a beauty (according to me)of a 9 pointer. Taxidermist guessed 3 1/2. Maybe 4 1/2, he weighed 185 dressed. Only saw 3 buck the first week of gun season though. Maybe 10-12 doe. 2 buck on opening morning, one decent one fork horn. Passed the fork and couldn't get a clear shot at the bigger one. Probably 110 class. Took a 6 point the second saturday. A friends nephew nailed a 165" rough score, just off my property. That bad boy was impresive. Anyway, freezer's full and had a great time. Oh yea, neighbor took a pretty nice looking buck too. Don't know what it scored (only saw it while driving by)but I'd guess it'd go around the same as the one I took. 130 ish.

This was kind of off topic but kind of not as well. With a 1 buck rule I wouldn't have been able to hunt in gun season at all (no doe permit). That would have been a bummer. And there was no way I was going to pass the buck I took in bow season.