RE: One buck rule
 

Congrats, and Amen!

Good to hear. Looks like lowering the DMPs last year worked. I saw tons of little ones, yearlings to 1 1/2 yr olds. Didn't see too many older deer, with the exception of the 2 bucks opening week. At least in Randolph. Collins, on the other hand, I've hunted twice there this season, seen deer both times, including a sizable 8 point this past Sunday - no shot, just a bit too far for my Hawken (I put the shotgun away when Regular season opened... using a single shot .45-70 in Cattaraugus County, .54 cal Hawken in non-rifle areas). Didn't have much fun during archery with that ridiculous freak storm hitting us two days before archery opener, which killed opening weekend and the next two after that! Saw quite a few first week of November, including a dandy sized spike, but, no shot.

I'm looking forward to this weekend, a ton of deer running everywhere, and from what I saw this past weekend, they're settling down rather nicely...

Did you see that picture of NY's second largest deer ever on record? A 203 (+/-) from Mansfield? What a beast.... In fact, most of the reports I am getting through the Erie County Federation and the NYS DEC are that the harvest is running above last year a bit. Bucks are about the same, does are a little higher, as expected. What's interesting to note is the buck quality this year. I am not sure about the other Regions, but here in Region 9, many 3.5 - 4.5, even older bucks are being reported and checked in. It may be similar in Region 8, but unsure, yet. I'll know a lot more detail after this Thursday.

And, imagine, such bucks WITHOUT a one buck limit! I thought that the rampant harvest of multiple bucks would have made this harvest this year impossible..... and no increased AR, either!! Could it be the nature or.... nature?? hmmmm

RE: One buck rule
 

Another great point! Keep em coming there doctariAFC.

RE: One buck rule
 

I am all for the 1buck rule so each hunter can pick his trophy (no AR).
I would love to see the Ohio system used here 1 buck, a very longarchery season from oct 1st to feb 2nd. a very short gun season I think it is just 6 or 7 days. If the short gun season means give peoplethe use of a crossbowI am all for itI hope I never need to use one due to age or phyiscal disability but the option might be nice. I also belive if they get there butts out of there heads and drop the age restriction we could get very young bow hunters out hunting with a cross bow until they develop into regular archers. I also would love to see an early firearm deer season for our youth if they change the age restriction. Buy the wayIknow many people who have hunted ohio and I have done research on the hunting there and this system works for them. This state puts a lot of trophys on the ground and gets the young hunter started early and keeps the older guys in the field longer. Why try andinvent the wheel again look west boys they are getting it done in Ohio. I know alot of you will hate the crossbow Idea but it works thereit could work here to. I have shot a crossbow and let me tell you the compound is a bigger advantage over a recurve than a crossbow is over a compound.
Gene

RE: One buck rule
 

Interesting thoughts. You know, NYS has NEVER had a one buck rule, and, up until very recently (within the past couple years) this really wasn't even an issue. I think the adoption of the DECALS system and the myriad of changes that accompanied the new licensing system has caused the most woes. Prior to 2002 (launch of DECALS) NYS hunters, including bowhunters, were issued a buck tag (which was valid through all seasons, early archery and extended it was valid for deer of either sex), and if you were fortunate enough, you could get up to two DMPs. The DMP could be filled during the last week or so of early archery, in the DMP it was valid for, to use on an antlerless deer. You could not use a DMP in extended season - which is still true today.

Those who harvested a deer (buck or doe) during early archery, and filled their "buck tag" could go to a licensing agent and purchase a second, special buck tag, which was valid for REGULAR SEASON ONLY, at the cost of $10.00. The caveat was you had to buy this special tag BEFORE the start of Regular Season.

No one griped about that system at all, except a few bowhunters who didn't believe the Buck Tag should be used during early archery. When DECALS was launched, bowhunters won the deer of either sex AND an antlerless only tag. The trade off was a significant license fee increase.

So, the bowhunters got what they wanted, and now some bowhunters are griping about needing a one buck rule?

Also, reducing the regular firearms season will NEVER happen. County Federations and the NYSCC will never support a reduction of the firearms season, not to mention the numbers of firearms hunters make up the vast majority of NYS Hunters.

The issue is really effective deer management, not season lengths. If NYS had a million hunters, you may have a point, but we barely have 500,000, and this figure is way down from the 2001 level of @ 665,000 big game hunters in NYS. The DEC is changing their deer management approach, working towards balancing the population numbers, keeping them stable, vs the ups and downs we have all struggled with in the past. These efforts are not just limited to DMP structure. Both DDP and DMAP are also addressed, and the changes in these programs were implemented this year.

We sportsmen tend to knee-jerk over everything we perceive as being "negative". Everything becomes a crisis. We have to change stuff now. I remember the summer of 2004, and listening to the major griping Lake Erie Charter Captains did throughout that season when the walleye fishing was abysmal. I personally know just about every charter captain running out of Dunkirk Harbor, and, believe me, Bill Culligan, Paul McKeown and Jim Markham heard an earful all season long, and the common demand was more protection for the walleye.

Guess what happened in 2005? As Paul Soper, Jr said to me the first day he and I fished in 2005, "Richie, today's walleye fishing was better than ALL OF 2004 combined!" Then of course we had this past season, perhaps the best walleye fishing Eastern Basin of Lake Erie has seen in well over 20 years. Those cries of "protect the walleye" in 2004 turned into (and it passed and is in effect now) return the daily limit to 5 fish! Heck, these knee-jerks resulted in jerking around walleye anglers in the Lower Niagara River! Firts, the walleye season was closed in the LNR on December 31 (season statewide runs through March 15), for fear that overfishing in the LNR was hurting the Bay of Quinte fishing. Ooops... That wasn't the case. So now they've re-opened walleye season, but for one fish per day, minimum 18" from Jan 1 - March 15. Affects of VHS notwithstanding, I would bet the DEC will restore the walleye fishing in full in the LNR come 2008.

Sportsmen must work a little harder at keeping the emotions in check, and use science, fact and logic to make decisions. Your observations on stand in the woods is hardly scientific, and is NOT an indicator of the state of the deer herds. Too many other factors, such as natural succession for one, to base any actions on hunter observations, despite how upset you may or may not be.

Let's also not lose sight of the fact that reporting compliance has dropped like a stone since the 888-GAME-RPT phone in system was adopted. DEC officials assert that pre-DECALS, reporting compliance was near 95%. Last season they estimate 76% compliance, and dropping like a stone. If hunters are not stepping up and providing the information the DEC needs, and requires by law, what the heck makes anyone think any changes in the deer management plans will work? FUBAR

RE: One buck rule
 

Regarding reporting compliance, I wonder why the DEC doesn't simply implement a rule that requires you to report whether or not you fill a tag. Basically at some point after the close of the season you would be required to use decals to complete areport on the status of all the tags issued to you you haven't already reported on.Enforcement would be easy and 100% compliance would be assured by simply not issuing your following years license until you complete your report. It's all computerized now so it should be no big deal to implement it. 100% compliance gaurenteed!

RE: One buck rule
 

Doc you got more BS than carter has liver pills, some of your figures can be made to match anything you want. We need a one buck rule let every one have a chance .

RE: One buck rule
 

You know, this is on the table with resolution before the NYSCC. I think it got shot down, I'll have to check my records for the talley, but I do know the Erie County Federation was opposed to this measure. SOme believe this would only encourage poaching. This approach, mandatory reporting after the season, regardless of success, has been used by the DEC in past programs, such as the old Musky Tag/ special license progam that was in place on Chautauqua Lake until the early 90's. Each angler got 5 musky seals for the season (which on Chautauqua was 30 days shorter than the statewide season). Your daily limit of musky was 1 per day, but anglers also had a SEASON limit of 5 fish per season, 36" minimum.

Every angler who bought the msuky license (for $5) was required to mail in the report card once the season closed at the end of October. Post marked within 10 days of Oct 31. How this was actually enforced was another thing, but, this program was scrapped because of cost to process the license returns. No one wants to handle empty report cards. Focus the energy on reported success, not reported failure. Efficiency thing with out tax dollars.

The biggest issue with the 888-GAME-RPT is the reporting requirements. You must call in your harvest within 48 hours of making the kill. Hunters are not clear on what happens if they call in a day or two late, due to being out in the field, not near cell or telephone service? No answer is given clearly for this, despite it being asked of DEC officials to clarify. Another big issue with the system is when you make a mistake, pushing the wrong button. People get easily confused, and they end up having to terminate the report before its finished, starting over from dialing the number on down. A caller cannot easily "back up" durig the report process is a mistake was made. Further issues with getting through, although the state did expand the POTS lines in the hunt sequence, hunters still run into busy signals. Then you have the physical time it takes to make the report, which is a heck of a lot longer than mailing in your completed report card, postage paid, at the end of big game hunting.

I think they could go a long way to restoring compliancy just by mandating harvest reports must be made by the end of the season, rather than this 48 hours or else... Lots of issues, and these issues appear to be NYS self inflicted gunshot wounds, but hunters aren't helping the matters either, they're walking away from their reporting responsibility.

RE: One buck rule
 

Talk to the DEC biologists. Start with Tim Spierto and work your way from there. There is no biological reason to implement a one buck rule. Not one. The number of hunters who are harvesting a second buck in NYS are so low it makes no sense to even go after. Waste of legislative time and money, not to mention insignificant returns for any kind of enforcement efforts. So you wish to stop approximately 3,000 hunters, out of 500,000, from harvesting a second buck. Please explain to me how this will magically improve the buck herds and opportunity for all?

Now, if guys are filling other hunter's buck tags, in effect going the "party hunt" route, well, that is already illegal and if you know a hunter or two that do this, report them.

RE: One buck rule
 

I totally agree.The most important objective is to get people to report, no reason it has to be done in 48 hours.If that rule is hindering compliance then it should be changed.

I alsothink the Erie County Federation's concerns that increased poaching would result if it were required to report on the status of your tags before you can get a new license is overblown. I highly doubt many would risk the consequences of hunting without a valid license just to get out of doing a simple task. Especially in light of the fact that it's something that is pretty easy to get caught at. I think most whendeinied a newlicense would look for the nearest phone and take the few minutes necessary to set things straight. The risk and consequences relative to just dialing the phone and taking care of it imo would win the day for the better.

Like I said, it's all computerized so theoretically if a person is denied a license, he could walk to the nearest phone, enter the information andreturn literally seconds later and get his new license. I really think once it's clear you have to do it, people will resign themselves to the fact and take care of it.

RE: One buck rule
 

Yes, I agree this would be a very good way to go, but, I can state with relative certainly the Resolution to make reporting mandatory for everyone after the season, regardless of success, was shot down across the State by the member County Federations (NYSCC Resolution). I will try my best to get the resolution number and the exact tally, but I have to search the archives a little bit, on another computer. I'll be doing a bunch of Federation work tonight (getting the minutes out from last meeting, which I missed, but have notes from our President) and I'll see if I can find that info.

I would be able to find it on the NYSCC website, but, as fate would have it, they are constructing a new site. FUBAR. Timing is everything.

RE: One buck rule
 

[[/quote]
I think the adoption of the DECALS system and the myriad of changes that accompanied the new licensing system has caused the most woes. Prior to 2002 (launch of DECALS) NYS hunters, including bowhunters, were issued a buck tag (which was valid through all seasons, early archery and extended it was valid for deer of either sex), and if you were fortunate enough, you could get up to two DMPs. The DMP could be filled during the last week or so of early archery, in the DMP it was valid for, to use on an antlerless deer. You could not use a DMP in extended season - which is still true today.
[/quote]

Doc,

Not to be critical but a DMP can be used for the taking of an antlerless deer in the late archery or muzzleloader season. I hunt some of the same areas you do (9J, 9K, and 9R).

RE: One buck rule
 

Deer Management Permit
Antlerless Deer Only
Valid only for the WMU specified on the DMP
Valid in all Southern Zone seasons (with appropriate privileges), including all Westchester & Suffolk County seasons, and in the Northern Zone regular season and late muzzleloading season (not valid in Northern Zone archery or early muzzleloading seasons)from the DEC website......all Southern Zone Seasons.

RE: One buck rule
 

I stand corrected, thank you! This also jogs the memory concerning this relatively new approach to DMPs, and this concern was brought up to the DEC. From what I have heard, this may change in the Southern Zone next season, depending on support from hunters.A couple concerns are actually on the table rightnow. The use of DMPs in seasons other than regular season (you can take two antlerless animals already with your two early/ late season tags) to be removed. Can use DMPs onlyduring regular season. The next is the legality to consign/ transfer your DMP to another hunter legally (although how does one enforce this?) With sentiments as they are amongst hunters and the DEC, hunters believing the DEC was trying to wipe out the deer during the early part of this decade through very liberalDMP issuances, is this somethingthat you and others would support?

RE: One buck rule
 

I personally have all kinds of ideas about how NY could handle their deer management. I for one would like to see deer check stations so the DEC could get some idea exactly what the status of the herd is. This woud eliminate the need for reporting, and give them an exact idea of what is being taken, ages of the deer being taken and health of the herd. As far as how many deer, make it a one doe and one buck limit, but make additional tags available as the numbers develop, as in more available tags if the herd looks like numbers are up, and late in the season issued tags as you fill the tags you are issued and the herd numbers warrant it. I am sure there is alot of fine tuning to be done, but something different should be tried, even if it is a pilot program. After all, things change. The problem is this state loves to drag its feet. Case in point is the 16 year old big game limit.

RE: One buck rule
 

If hunters won't take the few minutes to report now, do we think they will find a check station? Especially the ones doing their own processing?

As far as changing the when and who of the DMP's, whats important is to get thereal % of tagsfilled vs issued from an accurate reporting system to determine if the goals are being met. Then you adjust tags issued to meet this. Who and when is irrelevant as long as the target number is close to the actual.

RE: One buck rule
 

As a general principle I would welcome changes that give hunters more options and oppose those that would restrict them.

I like the idea of allowingDMP's to be used in any of the seasons. I can't see where restricting their use to the regular season would add to any hunters enjoyment of the sport but it certainly could damage it for some if not many. What's the problem if a hunter would rather use his/her DMP in the archery season for example and not the regular firearms season? If the management goal is to remove some number of doe from the herd then it seems to me the weapons or seasons they are taken in is irrelevant.

I also like the option of transferring DMP's to another hunter. It gives a hunter that want's to take an extra couple of deer the chance to do it. Again, the goal is to trim the doe population. Removing the transfer option does nothing to help in that regard.

Check stations? I absolutely hate the idea! How many hunters drag their deer from the woods into the back yard or to the barn or whatever. Now we would require them to load up their deer and travel to some location and possibly wait in line for somebody to check it out? There may be better ways to irritate hunters across this state but I can't think of one. Not only that, but how many state employees would we need to hire to manthese stations? I'll say it again, I absolutely hate the idea!

RE: One buck rule
 

I vote that DMP's be used in what ever season the hunter chooses and that we continue to callinourkills. Takes me 3 mintues to make a call versethe time loading, driving to & from, time waiting to get checked etc. Plus it never seems to fail that I hear their not enough DEC agentsas it is, so why tie them up in check station?

I like the idea of AR, however I have no hard facts in front of me to post to counter-claims those who are against it. The bigger issue for me I think is my areaand some of the local hunter'smorals toward taking deer. They tend to kill any & amount ofdeer and either butcher the deer themselves or take it to a local farmer who believes in recycling the tags. Bring him the deer and he'll give you your unfilled tag back. So with that mind set, no matter what rules, laws etc are in place, some are not going to follow.

RE: One buck rule
 

Excellent feedback. I agree with most of the replies, especailly the DMP usage, as the purpose of the DMP is to control the deer numbers. Since these are WMU specific, I personally have no issue with it. However, the sentiments of many hunters is different, with their concerns rooted in the number of tags the DEC issues to hunters as a whole.

Another interesting factor in this was admitted by the DEC a couple years ago, and that is their instant lottery system has been issuing more permits than the DEC determined to issue as a whole. According to the DEC, "We didn't know how skilled Hunters are at playing the lottery."

I remember the first year of this new system quite well (beyond the server crashes and then running out of paper, etc.) as the DEC had another round of tag issuances a couple weeks before regular season. I ended up with 3 DMPs that year.

But the maganament stratgeies have changed their focus. I believe this has a lot to do with Commissioner Sheehan, and that is a credit to her - she is one of our allies, for certain. Thanks for the input...

Check stations - DEC already sets these up, but they are not mandatory, unless you happen to be driving up to one with a deer on your car, I believe. The DEC also visits local deer processors, and they scan the tags which can quickly verify if the harvest has been reported. This is where the DEC comes up with their "fudge factor".

However, what I don't get, is that if they use processor visits and scan tags to determine whether the harvest has been reported and to come up with their estimated compliancy rate, why not notify the hunter of his failure to report the animal? Certainly doesn't work for the do it yourself cutters. Perhaps the DEC is concerned about driving away business to that specific processor?

The bottom line is once the deer numbers are stabilized (and they showed some stabilization last year, hencemodest increase in DMP issuance) we must all be vigilent and assist the DEC with their altered deer management philosophies. They cannot do it on their own and expect success. Since we, as hunters, are the primary tool for deer management, we to, IMHO, have a responsibility to do the job in total, which includes proper reporting. LOts of banter going on over this one.