Remember PA Guys......
 

Put your doe tags in the mail today or tomorrow, depending on how far away you are from Harrisburg. And remember to fill EVERYTHING out on the envelope/application. Good luck!
Steven

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

Better than that, If you think there are not enough deer in the state, don't buy ANY doe tags. And if you buy a doe tag and use it, do not complain about deer numbers. Simple as that.
Everyone should have an opinion and stick to that opinion.

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

In the mail...;)

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

There are hardly any deer where I hunt and I'm going to try for four doe tags for my son and myself. I hope we kill all eight because that's what the idiots want us to do. Then when there aren't any deer at all left I will complain louder than anyone the the PGC sucks!! I'm following their plan just like they want us to. How could edjumicated biologists be wrong?

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

You may as well kill all the deer you can. Fill your freezer and if your freezer is full give the meat away to friends and relatives. HeII, feed it to the dog and cat. Remember, it's good for the habitat. It's good for regeneration. It's good for the timber industry. How could it have a negative effect on hunters and the economy of the state (especially in rural areas) when the PGC claims that PA has well over 1 Million deer? We hunters (or deer slaughterers) can never kill too many deer.

And after we kill all the deer we're going to concentrate on the bears........

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

Thats more tags for me and my children for those who don't purchase them...This is their plan though and should help them with it...Then,just maybe,, they might close doe season down for 2 or 3 years and learn a listen when they lose their revenue... Greedy is whats goanna hurt them...I just wonder who are goanna buy liscense when they hit 30$+ and have no doe hunting??? I will still buy my kids liscense but don't think I would get mine...I just enjoy sitting with them while they do the actual hunting and harvesting any way... But good luck to all who are helping and working with the GPC to make this a better hunting state by reducing the deer herds...I am with you all...

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

I'm gonna kill every G-damn doe I can. Might as well get mine before they're all gone. I would advise all of you to do the same.

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

About time you shoot something, ain't it? [8D]

Saw you on PCN tonight, at yesterday's Senate Judiciary Comm.hearing on firearms legislation.Thought it was Harry Belafonte thereat first with the shirt opened, then realized it was you. Good testimony.

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

As long as you are properly licensed with the deer tags, hunting within the legal seasons and following the legal hunting times, laws, regulations and restrictions you will not be harming the future of hunting or the future of the deer populations.

In fact the biggest threat deer populations have ever faced in this state has been from under harvests that failed to protect the deer habitat and food supply. It is virtually impossible to over harvest deer through legal hunting methods where there is suitable habitat that would support more deer.

Dick Bodenhorn
WCO, Elk County

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

This is so true. Thereare so many that don't understand this.

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

holy crap please tell me that is not RSB from huntingpa.....about time a few of you guys get over here......same ole chit just a diffrent board lol....welcome about RSB....get the rest of the gang over here. i been here way longer then huntingpa...just cant take "these" threads and all the other whinning at huntingpa too much....but it seems they still pop up here from time to time...

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

A little tip about doe apps. guys. What I have found (since the switch to mailing them to Harrisburg) is that I actually get mine back quicker if I do not put them in the mail Friday or Saturday morning. If I mail mine Saturday afternoon or Sunday then I usually see mine back within 2 or 3 weeks. If I mail them in on Friday or Saturday mornings then I do not see them till after I get my second round back. ;)

Don't know how it is for the rest of you folks.

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

Yes "Denny F" that was me speaking at that hearing. Unfortunatly there were very few pro firearms speakers at that hearing. It was predominately Anti's that got the most attention. If they enact that proposed legislation NO ONE in Pennsylvania will be able to buy or sell more than one handgun a month. Other cities and towns will be able to "regulate" who gets a Concealed Carry Permit. (Get ready to "suck up" to Law Enforcement in your town.) We had all better make sure where our state level politicians stand on this issue. And the meeting wasn't just about Philly. There were reps there from "Steeler" country as well as York and Harrisburg. There will be other hearings sometime in the near future in Harrisburg and York as well. Perhaps we should all make an effort to attend and speak.

Now for the good Game Warden's comments....
I was at my camp the last couple of days in lower Bradford County. Specifically Game lands 12 and 36 (Kahill Mt.). I took a walk down one of the firetrails for about 2 miles. I took my French Britt with me hoping to locate some grouse, and also my 357. Actually I was using the dog as bait for a Mountain Lion hoping for an attack on the dog so I could kill the lion and drag the dastarb down to the Regional PGC office in Dallas for pictures with me the cat and RSB in the latest issue of Penn Game News.
(I promise, the first time I see a Mountain Lion I will kill it.)

In any event, in the 2 mile walk I encountered exactly one set of deer tracks, 3 droppings of coyote scat, two sets of turkey tracks, one grouse flush (scared the lleh out of me) lots of old dried out deer droppingsand little else. Folks I know who regularly ride ATV's (illegally) on the Game Lands say they see very few deer as opposed to what they see on local farms. (By the way, the locals monitor the whereabouts and work schedules of the Game Wardens so they know when and when not to ride on GL.)

Try to remember that RSB is a soldier in the PGC LE group. I'm sure that he backed Gary Alts every move. I'm sure that he went along with the agency's claim that PA has 1.6 million deer. I'm also sure that when you encounter him in the Game Lands parking lot he is going to check your back tag to be sure it's signed, and if not will be more than happy to issue you a citation. That's just the way good soldiers operate.

You know what I'd like to see? I'd like to see an article in the Penn Game news showing the success of our Board of Commissioners and the executives (especially Cal DuBrock) of the commission hunting the first day of rifle season on PA State Game lands. Complete with photos. After all, aren't the Game lands the "Jewels" of PA?
Canyou envisiona photo of Schleiden, Isabella, Palone and Boop along with Roe, Schmit, DuBrock and maybe even RSB in front of the Game Lands sign with a passel of big antlered bucks on opening day. WOW!!! What a story!!! WOW!!!! What a photo!!!!!

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

Not me , This year all I have to do is got to the local general store and buy a doe permit.

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

If the Game Commission was infallible I just might agree with you. However, if the PGC grossly overestimated the size of the herd and issued too many doe permits, then an overharvest occurred.
Many people think that this is exactly what happened when the PGC claimed that there were 1.6 million deer and upped the permits and extended the doe season. Now that the PGC finally admits that they don't know how many deer there are and sharply reduced the permits, particularly in certain WMU's, it seems that they too think there was an overharvest. Otherwise, just keep selling more tags -- it's not like they don't need the money!
Personally, if no one has any idea of how many deer there are, then I don't know how it can be determined whether or not it happened. We need real numbers and the PGC better spend money on that if it wants to get away from the junk science that's driving the ship right now.

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

OK now let me get this straight. Crappy habitat = too many deer were surviving just fine (Very Bad thing!). Great habitat = Hardly any deer but boy can the two that are left eat good (Great News). If the habitat is getting so much better, why does antler growth still suck? I'm seeing 1 1/2 yr old spikes in my community where the deer even get hand outs. It seems to me if there used to be a lot of deer the habitat could support them or they all would have starved to death. Going by current logic if we converted all of PA into a desert we would have about 2 million deer.

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

When are the tags actually due...I am sending out on monday. I live in Altoona.

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

Apparently many people fail to understand how deer populations are influenced by the local habitat combined with the environmental conditions.

We had more deer a few years ago because we were under harvesting them, due to the previous public and political pressures, but we also have several lucky years combined with those reduced harvests. The lucky part was that we had almost a decade of very mild winters combined with reasonable to great mast production. That provided ideal conditions for abnormally high deer populations.

The problem with those high deer populations is that they can’t be sustained once you get more normal or harsh winters with no mast crop even if hunters hadn’t harvested any of them. In fact if the hunters would have harvested fewer of the deer it might well have resulted in an even more severe crash of the deer populations.

What really cased the deer populations to decline over most of the state was the increased deer harvests, which was the agencies efforts toward getting the herd under control before harsh environmental conditions caused a crash, combined with those harsh environmental conditions that arrived before we had succeeded in getting the deer population in balance with more normal hard winter food supplies.

If you take a look you will see how the areas hardest hit with low deer numbers today had experienced about ten years of reduced antlerless harvests during the same time we had mild winters with good mast crops. Then you will see that the deer herds crashed following three years of failed mast production combined with two back to back winters of prolonged periods of deep snow conditions that forced the deer to spend almost two months in the habitat depleted wintering grounds.

The result was several years of reduced fawn recruitment because mom didn’t get enough food, through the winter, to produce fawns that weighed the minimum amount to survive after being born. One year of the reduced fawn recruitment is bad enough and hunters will start to notice a reduction. But, when you get back to back years of the reduced fawn survival and recruitment you start to get a compounding factor kicking in and it takes more then one year for hunter to start seeing the deer numbers increasing again.

On the plus side is that during those years of reduced deer numbers we started to get some habitat recovery because there weren’t the maximum number of deer the habitat could sustain. Now we are once again starting to see the deer numbers on the increase due to another good mast crop followed by a mild winter.

The problem is going to be if we don’t continue to keep the deer numbers at a low enough level that we continue to get habitat recovery. If the habitat starts to go down hill again then we can guarantee that the deer populations will crash again the next time we experience multiple back to back years of harsh environmental conditions. The environmental factors are always going to have some influence on the annual fawn recruitment, and thus the post season deer numbers, but when you have habitat that allows for the environmental factors to have total control of the deer recruitment factors then you are no longer managing the resources but simply allowing nature to control the factors. There are some people that think that is what would be best but they are wrong when it comes to species that have few natural predators yet the capacity to both increase their population rapidly and adversely affect their food supply. If we don’t control species with that capacity their numbers do stabilize but it is always at a low number that is subject to boom and bust cycles based on the changes in the environmental influences.

The bottom line is that hunters and high hunter harvests was not what caused the present decline in deer numbers in this state. It was the previous lack of habitat protection and restoration that caused the low deer numbers of the past few years. The habitat is now starting to improve and so are the deer numbers. But, we have to remember that the habitat has to come first, it can not be the other way around because no species can exist for more then short term without having enough nutritious food to both sustain them and allow for surviving offspring.

For the guy that is seeing better habitat and still seeing spikes I will simply answer by saying that can be a positive sign too. Perhaps that means the improved habitat combined with the better buck/doe ratio, from antler restrictions, resulted in more juvenile does making breeding weight the previous fall, getting bred and producing a fawn. A higher percentage of those fawns from juvenile does will be born a few weeks later then older does which then results in their buck fawns being spikes as yearlings. That is not a negative but a positive since those bucks wouldn’t even have existed in the past.

There is a lot more to deer management, and in the normal fluctuations in the deer numbers, then just how many deer were shot by hunters. Until hunters wake up to that fact they will continue to push the wrong buttons that will continue to harm the future of good and sound wildlife management principles. It has been the lack of hunter understanding and knowledge that has been the biggest stumbling block toward having long term sustainable and higher deer numbers over much of this state. We could have more deer, than we presently have, if the hunters and politicians would allow the professionals to do their jobs with the best knowledge available. But, the hunters and politicians don’t allow the professionals to do what is best for the resources so we will continue to do the best we can with our hands tied.

Dick Bodenhorn
WCO, Elk County

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

Some of the things you spoke about may be correct "RSB." Then again, some of those things you say may be PGC BULL$HIT!

Try and keep in mind that the agency lied when they said PA had 1.6 Million Deer on the hoof.

They continually lie about the yearly deer kill. Your asking intelegent people to believe that your agency can derive accurate kill figures when LESS than 40% of hunters return report cards. The PGC has conjured up a "Magical, Mystical Method" of calculation and made NO improvements to the equation in decades if ever. Oh, why doesn't the agency have a 1-800 number for reporting? Or...how about reporting on line?I know, the PGC knows best,..right?

Your agency allowed Dr. Alt to pursue a state-wide deer program with NO OVERSIGHT! Unheard of anywhere in the United States!

Only this year has there been any consideration for an Urban Deer Management Plan. I guess that element was simply forgotten by the Great Gary Alt, and all of the deer biologists on staff.

Because of this lack of oversight and accountability, a state-wide deer management program was initiated without first having test studiesor a basic pilot program in which to glean this vital information.
In fact, the proper designation for such an action in the scientific community is often labeled "Junk Science."

And now we find out that the agency has had secret meetings (JAN-05) with DCNR. Remember, DCNR is the biggest user of DMAP. DMAP was originally intended for privat landowners. DCNR advocates deer densities of ZERO.

Sorry "RSB" but no one is buying into your propaganda. Try selling it on "Wolf Pile" or possibly "Slaughterpa."

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

Well the cat is out of the bag now I guess. I was SHOCKED 2 weeks ago when the minutes of those secret meetings arrived on my desk. How dare the DCNR and the PGC to act in this manner and try to sell it to us as game management.

It's no wonder that the PGC is being sued by the USP and now I think we will see why the PGC wanted no part in handing over any information when the USP requested it.

At one time, I had the utmost respect for those in charge of manageing our wildlife and our forests. No more. As far as I'm concerned, they appear to be nothing more than abunch of snakes in the grass.

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

Its nice to see a harmless thread about the reminder of doe applications has been turned into another pgc pissing match.

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

yea, PA TM, these guys have been killing legit threads for years now.
But in other news,my dad took a ride out my hunting spot tonight and saw 102 deer, 12 bucks. There are WAY too many deer. It was good hunting when you could ride around and see 30-50 on this loop. 102, is way too many. During turkey season this past year, you could really start to see a heavey browse line, like I've never seen before.

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

Rybo,

Anytime you need help thinnin' em out, you just let me know.



-Jerry

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

Rybo....were are you in western PA? I'm up in Erie, but I hunt down in Crawford and Mercer counties too.

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

"Try and keep in mind that the agency lied when they said PA had 1.6 Million Deer on the hoof."


They did? I didn’t know you or anyone else had an accurate count on the deer. Perhaps you can present your accurately counted deer numbers for the USP court case?

"They continually lie about the yearly deer kill. Your asking intelegent people to believe that your agency can derive accurate kill figures when LESS than 40% of hunters return report cards. The PGC has conjured up a "Magical, Mystical Method" of calculation and made NO improvements to the equation in decades if ever. Oh, why doesn't the agency have a 1-800 number for reporting? Or...how about reporting on line?I know, the PGC knows best,..right?"


Your lack of knowledge and biased misinformation is showing again.

As a matter of fact the Game Commission has been legally restricted to only mail in reporting until just this past year when the State Legislature finally changed the law to finally allow for other methods of reporting.

As for the accuracy of the deer harvests the methods of calculating the annual harvests by determining the reporting rate and then factoring that into the actual reported harvest was scrutinized and evaluated by a leading accounting firm and found to be an accurate and reliable method of estimating the harvest. In fact it is more accurate then check stations. We still wish hunters would do a better job of sending in those free and easy to use mail in report cards, I don’t know what could be any easier.

"Your agency allowed Dr. Alt to pursue a state-wide deer program with NO OVERSIGHT! Unheard of anywhere in the United States!"


That is without a doubt one of the most unfounded comments I have ever seen on any message board. There has never been a manage plan or hunting season initiated in this state that didn’t get voted on and approved by the entire Board of Commissioners.

"Only this year has there been any consideration for an Urban Deer Management Plan. I guess that element was simply forgotten by the Great Gary Alt, and all of the deer biologists on staff.

Because of this lack of oversight and accountability, a state-wide deer management program was initiated without first having test studiesor a basic pilot program in which to glean this vital information.
In fact, the proper designation for such an action in the scientific community is often labeled "Junk Science."


Once again you have no idea what you are talking.

There was and is a ton of scientific data to support every management objective in place today. The only place where scientific supported data is lacking would be for those years when the antlerless allocations where cut back in the 90s and for ever allowing buck harvests that allowed the buck/doe ratio to become so out of balance.

"And now we find out that the agency has had secret meetings (JAN-05) with DCNR. Remember, DCNR is the biggest user of DMAP. DMAP was originally intended for privat landowners. DCNR advocates deer densities of ZERO."


Just because the USP and your cronies weren’t invited to the meeting doesn’t mean it was a secret meeting. We have had private meetings with the USP too yet they weren’t secrets now were they?

Besides it doesn’t really matter who the agency meets with publicly or privately to listen to their views on any number of topics as long as we still use sound scientific management principles toward responsible wildlife management objectives. I suspect part of that responsible management also includes having a management plan that allows other landowners to fulfill their legislatively mandated missions too.

"Sorry "RSB" but no one is buying into your propaganda. Try selling it on "Wolf Pile" or possibly "Slaughterpa."


Talk about propaganda; you have just dumped a real load of it on that post. What is this the official web site for all the biased and misinformed people that got kicked off of other message boards?

Dick Bodenhorn
WCO, Elk County

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You mean that all the numbers that you posted over the years weren't accurate AND YOU KNEW IT? Why then should we believe anything from an admitted b.s.er?
BTW, it is the PGC that will have to back up the numbers they published if they dispute USP claims of arbirtary and capricious deer management.

Too bad that data does not include accurate deer numbers.

Rolling on the floor laughing my you know what off!!! I wonder if the PGC will make that claim under oath?

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

..

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

1.6million deer... Figure this out???How many liscense was sold last year...How many deer was their??? 1.6 million...Liscense sold divided by deer...It's not hard to figure out what is going on here..Liscense sold each year estimate that half the tags sold = does harvested...Fawns born..Follow this pattern for 5 years.. See what you have...

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

anyone having a heart attack yet ??? OH ,will I get one ??? Stressed out waiting??? Doctor feel good has the remedy. Doe tag rum to ease the wait and shakes, LOL

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

No one saidwe had 1.6 million deer last so your calculations make no sense.

Mocha,How would any other method of calculation be any more accurate than the present one?Do you really think states like Ohio have any idea how many deer are shot and and never tagged?

I'm sorry you didn't get your deer last year John.I hope youhave better luck this year.

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"RSB" since your being so open and frank, why don't you tell us who paid for the Penn State deer study?

Who are the contributors to Rus Schleiden's "Foundation"?

And while we're being honest and open, when Don Madl was shooting 150 deer a year on various farms in PA while holding the Executive Director position, did you ever question that? Did you ever hear about PGC personnel doing work on his camp? Was anyone ever diciplined?

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I'm tired of arguing about this. Let's kill all the deer like they want, then hunt in another state and screw the PGC. It will be tuff to sell licenses when there are no deer to shoot. I'm applying for my DMAP tags today. Kill Kill Kill, we need to save the environment from the evil deer before they eat everything, and PA slowly turns into a desert.

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The game commission didn't have the funding to do these studies on their own.The Audubon andthe Heinz association both funded those studiesI believe.Should the PGC have turned that money away.What does Don Madl have to do with anything that's happening now?Maybe the USP should havenamed him in their lawsuit.If he really did kill 150 deer and I don'tknow whether he did or didn't,he really cut into the USP's kill.I remember reading about that in Pa Sportsman.What was the outcome?

chr103yod,In order to argue,you have to have a point about something.I fail to see any argument that you have.Do you really believe that too many deer in the past didn't damage the habitat?

RE: Remember PA Guys......
 

1.6million deer... Figure this out???How many liscense was sold last year...How many deer was their??? 1.6 million...Liscense sold divided by deer...It's not hard to figure out what is going on here..Liscense sold each year estimate that half the tags sold = does harvested...Fawns born..Follow this pattern for 5 years.. See what you have...



I was just useing that no. someone mentioned...Use 1 million and do the math as I mentioned before....It makes perfect sense... Does getting over harvested...This is easy to figure out...

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Thank You "DougF" for the explanation, but I'd rather hear it from "RSB", not that I don't trust you. You obviously have very good internal agency connections.

"What does Don Madl have to do with anything"
It has to do with Law Enforcement and the probability that Madl was not prosecuted for breaking the law. Strange how no one employed by the agency was aware of Madl's offenses.

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Just amazes me how spiteful some of the folks on here are, that they will overharvest does on purpose. Why would one want to degrade their future hunting in the name of proving a pointor out of hatred for someone else of an opposing viewpoint? If you think the GC is using us dumb hunters to decimate the herd, why do you line up with such zeal to do so? Do you think that when the deer are all gone you will get an apology? Look at the big picture people!
I didn't realize there were so many children on this forum. I certainly hope that those with this train of thought do not hunt where I do.
"I'm going to kill every doe I can"
Does this sound like the words of a sportsman?

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I live just off of Fort Indiantown Gap. The deer on the base are plentiful, and there are some good deer in the surrounding areas, but most is private. Our land borders the SGL, and I wouldn't waste my energy walking up there...you can sit for a week and not see a deer. I am lucky enough to have a farm in WV, so I don't go out there anyway. A lot of these studys are done in areas that you can not hunt. I saw the figures for deer in Lebanon county, and the reason they were what they were was because the study was done on the National Cemetery land...land which you can not hunt. Numbers are deceiving at times.

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"Livbucks", yes I wrote that out of frustration mostly from what I've read of guys killing several doe each year. I have aquaintences (I won't call them friends nor sportsmen) whoeach year kill several doe and then ask around as to who would like a hind quarter as they have no room in their freezer.

I put in for a Antlerless tag for 3B, but should I recieve one I don't intend to fill it. I haven't for the last several years. You see I hunt game lands, and the Game Lands are less than bountiful. My 2 sons also put in for antlerless tags. Only the youngest will seek to fill his tag.

What's needed are allocations that differentiate between public and private lands. That would open up more hunting possibilities for hunters and a much better chance to harvest an animal as opposed to one individual harvesting several does that will probably end up as dog food.

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I agree...the system is broke, but blasting away out of spite is no solution and anyone who does such a thing is no sportsman. Some guys say " I might as well before they are all gone". That is the most rediculous statement to come fom a hunters mouth. What drives you to hunt? What are your objectives? If greed and machismo are your motives then find a new hobby. Does one like to hunt or just argue over deer management? The GC can dictate all they want but when I am out in the woods, I am all alone in the world and I decide when to pull the trigger. If I think there are too few deer in an area, I just wouldn't feel right about taking that lone doe walking through. Maybe I'm goofy or just outdated. The GC will just have to put up with independant thinkers like me till my number is up, cause I aint a changin'. A kill you can't feel good about is worthless. Why do it then? Go play golf.....

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I remember reading about Madl's alleged offeces a long time ago.I'm not saying he was innocent or guilty because i never saw any of the evidence.I thought this was looked into by the AG and most of it was dropped.I honestly don't know what the total outcome was.You wouldn't have a link would you.If the allegations were true,I agree that it was about as bad as it gets.