DougE

Germain,you have to look back in history to understand what's going on now.That area used to be loaded with deer and the population started going dowen throughout the 90's.Unfortunately,the damage was already done to much of that area.Ferns and other invasive species that deer don't eat,started taking over.Once that happens,you'll never get decent regeneration.Even if that area is cut,there's a good chance the invasive species will quickly take over unless the treat it.The ferns will go away if other species like blackberry,maple,fire cherry and other species take a foothold.That whole mountain is trashed.Yes there may be a few area with some new growth but it doesn't last long ,even with less deer.I'll try and check out the area where you're talking about this weekend but I'm willing to bet,there's very little preferred browse in those clearcuts.I have no doubt that you're seeing red maple surviving now because there's less deer.I'm seeing it now as well.That's why idon'twant the herd to go the other way too fast.

My yard is still loaded with acorns at this point.If I were a deer,I wouldn't be eating them now either.We had such a huge mast crop that there was no way they could all get cleaned up.Besides,alot of them are hollow.

There area just north of RT 322 gets a ton of sunlight near the road for about 100 yards until the woodline starts.It's all ferns and it's all because that area had way too many deer for way too long.Even with low deer numbers,the damage has already been done and it will take years to recover.Check out the area where the cutand fenced and area just off the right side of rt 322 before you hit the interstate.Lot's of good growth and the stump sprouts are surviving.Check out the rest of that area and see how many stump sprouts are surviving.I bet you won't find a single one.

I never,ever said thatantlerless harvests didn't have an effect on deer numbers.We had record antlerless harvestsfor several consequtive years.That certainly reduced the herd.I never denied that.However,when you combine that with some winter kill in 2003 and 2004 along with recruitment rate taking a dive,you end up with very few deer until the recruitment rate goes back up,like it has last year and this year.

Sproulman,explain why they're finding very few deer in the most remote areas.It ain't hunters kiling them.

DougE

Germain,acorns and farmland didn't do the deer one bit of good in the northern tier during the winter of 2004.We had several feet of snow cover with a heavy crust layer.The deer couldn't dig for farm crop and the mast crop was almost nonexistant.That's why you can't manage deer based on how many oak trees you have.

sproulman

doug, i am one saying that deer are not WAYBACK. wco ,your friend says deer are all WAYBACK. i agrre and fly overs are showing no deer WAYBACK, yet a certain wco says they are.he also says habitat is reason for NO DEER. oh my, he is gem. doug, there NEVER was many deer in the remote areas,only if they were chased there.deer is going to be where the terrain is not tough for them to live, weather and food is easier.yet, our wco friend says, DEER ARE WAYBACK.

DougE

Ipersonally know 3 WCO's in this area and the district forester from DCNR for district 9 in Moshannon state forest.None of them claim the deer are way back in and I've never claimed that either.I have no problems killing or finding deer around here and I stated several times that I don't hunt way back in most of the time.I have a great spot on moshanon state forest that isn't 100 yards from a state forest road that gives up a deer or two every single year.Normally we stick a junior hunter or someone that can't walk far in that spot though.No one is saying that the deer are way back in.What they're saying is that they aren't way back in in mnay cases,The FLIR and pellet counts are finding low deer numbers in those spots also.Since hunters aren't killing those deer,something else is controlling their numbers.

germain

Doug,The farmland I was talking about wasn't just the northern counties.You can even use Perry county for an example.If there's alot of land open to hunting there's going to be few deer.On the other hand places with plenty of limited hunting will have good deer numbers,that's just the way it is with herd reduction.
Also in areas like mine with strippings/ag there's preferred browse on top of the oaks.poplar,dogwood,and sumac are just some of the trees that do well on strippings not to mention maple.
This land has a good mixture of habitat for deer throughout the year.Yet the numbers are low because it gets hunted hard.
I guess we'll just have to disagree for now on most of this herd reduction/habitat issue.
I can't believe you can't remember when the DCNR was discussing ways for the hunters to get access back in to kill the deer in there.They made a big issue out of that along with members on the message boards.The FLIR study proved that not to be an issue anymore so it's mum on that now.

DougE

I can't comment on the southern counties and I readily agree that fragmented habitat can support more deer than the northern counties can.However,I saw the dead deerduring the spring of2004and know for a fact that recruitment was greatly effected up here.The next time you're up this way and you have some time,we'll try and find a few pounds of browse on that mountain.

sproulman

doug, someone said i was full of it when i said that the pgc was stocking EAGLES.a friend sent me this articile from canada.it says that pgc stocked eagles for 7 years in pa..most came from canada.88 EAGLES were released ,most in dauphin/pike county.it said that most of eagles that die are not do to HABITAT,but predators.sooooooooooooo,as i said before and now i am being proven right.other animals are exchanged but i have no facts ,but in time, they will surface, as this one has.

sproulman

you are right, germain. its hush for now .ha, it funny they saw all those deer WAYBACK in those vast, rugged, remote mountains but the eye in sky did not see them. i wonder who was fibbing?

T_in_PA3

Stock migratory species??????

germain

We'll definately get together this year Doug.I'm hoping to be up the first or second week of August.I'll get in touch closer to the time.