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RE: baiting deer in Pa
Sproulman,deer management should be left to the professionals.The posts on this message board reflect the fact that hunters shouldn't have much input.Who's cares if PSU is studying flowers.Deer aren't the only thing to be concerned about.
Mocha java.I realize that there's an optimum time to harvest timber.In fact there's many factor that go into it to ensure that future regeneration is adequate.It's usually better to harvest timber following a big mast crop and it makes no sense to harvest when the dd is high and the surrounding habitat is poor.Do you even know what a mature forest is?At what age is a forest considered mature and how long will it stay that way?Do you understand thatmany species rely on a mature forest.It's not all about the deer.It's best to have a mix of timber.That's why they won't cut more than 1% a year.Do you realize thatin many state game lands,the timber isn't vauable.It's not all red oak and cherry and not all of it can be easily harvested because of the terrain.Do you also realize that very few stands of timber in the northcentral part of the state are over 100 years old.There isn't much of a chance of that timbering starting to die and rot in the near furure.Besides,the bigger it gets,the more it's worth in most cases.You're the one that's not playing with a full deck. |
RE: baiting deer in Pa
Doug, Doug, Doug...It's as though the PGC had their hand up the back of your shirt and was playing vantriliquest.
Doud Said..."It's best to have a mix of timber.That's why they won't cut more than 1% a year.Do you realize thatin many state game lands,the timber isn't vauable.It's not all red oak and cherry and not all of it can be easily harvested because of the terrain.Do you also realize that very few stands of timber in the northcentral part of the state are over 100 years old.There isn't much of a chance of that timbering starting to die and rot in the near furure.Besides,the bigger it gets,the more it's worth in most cases.You're the one that's not playing with a full deck." If that's the reason they won't cut more than 1% per year why are they on a 100 year rotation program. Isn't there any other method? If the timber on many Game Lands isn't valuable why not whack it down and plant something the game would prefer? Also, what better place to initiate the methods of successional forestry discribed in the Grouse Study? What are you talking about when you say the terrain is too difficult? I've hunter Idaho and have seen timber operations on some of the steepest slopes in America. If they can harvest it in Idaho why can't they harvest it in Pennsylvania? Do the foresters in Idaho know something the foresters in Pennsylvania are totally unaware of? Are the timber guys in Pennsylvania bone heads? Doug, you need to revisit reality. Oh, and enjoy the electricity. Whith many hunters abandoning and shutting down their deer camps you may well see an increase in your electric bill. |
RE: baiting deer in Pa
doug,dont ever believe that places you say that are WAYBACK,have herds of deer.they dont. there is no place wayback that you cant get to now.we go WAYBACK because our hunting was always wayback.this is buzz word the ones that say there are deer use.many buzz words are being used now.many words used now by deer eradication group.HERE are some. we are lazy, dont get off road, dont know how to hunt, deer are WAYBACK,weather,habitat killed fawns, hunters sit on their a,well, you get my drift. doug, many fancy BUZZ WORDS now. take care
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RE: baiting deer in Pa
ORIGINAL: DougE That's why they won't cut more than 1% a year. Once again you are trying to muddy the waters. I repeat whatI said before: you are not playing with a full deck! To everyone else: beware of this person! |
RE: baiting deer in Pa
ORIGINAL: DougE Sproulman,deer management should be left to the professionals. Yano, perhaps yer right; I think we should leave it up to the "professionals" to find "alternative funding" for the PGC as well !!   |
RE: baiting deer in Pa
crazy, they are using russian helicopters now here in pa. to get wood off the steep hillsides.i was just at a site today. my forestry friend owns company.they carry out about 2 or 3 trees per trip.its fast.has 6 workers on ground with slings and chainsaws.they can cut a tree on highest mountain, no roads , no trouble.
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RE: baiting deer in Pa
Sproulman, I have no doubt that that "Other" poster is a PGC plant. May even be Joe Neville (Executive PGC Valet). Timber is the bigest issue with the agency. They employ 38 foresters and only 19 Wildlife biologists. That should tell you where their first priority is. DCNR managed to make their 1% goal. I guess the PGC can't find any timber companies in the phone book. (Or did they run out of Brother-in-Laws in the timber business?)
And your right about the agency claiming that we hunters don't hunt hard enough or go deep enough. Three years ago I was better than 2 1/2 miles...REPEAT...2 1/2 MILES deep (GPS Confirmed) into Game Lands 12 (24,000 acres) with my two sons. The youngest was at my side as he was only 13. Four does topped a bench a mere 40 yards from us. He had a doe tag. He wispered "Should I shoot the closest deer Dad?" I thought about the 2 1/2 mile drag up and down 2 mountains and said,"Lets pass these up. We'll work our way back to the car and kill one closer with less dragging." What a fool I was! For 2 days we only saw 2 other deer and they were on a dead run probably 75 yards out. Impossible for a 13 yr old to hit.So don't let any PGC stooge tell you you don't go far enough ordon't hunt hard enough. Thats BS ! The people who keep saying that are those guys who get back ache form putting up a roofed tree house for a deer stand on restricted private propertyand get tennis elbow from carrying a Pee bottle up the ladder to the tree stand (house). |
RE: baiting deer in Pa
I never had to say you had to go deep to find deer.What I said was the deer herd is way down is some ofmost remote are harshest terrain.These areas recieve very little hunting pressure,yet the herd is way down.It's not hunters that are killing them,it's the habitat and winters of 2003-2004.Ikilled 5 deer this year between Pa and Ohio.Four out of those five deer were killed within a half mile from a road and 2 were very close.I killed one deer that was 1.23 miles from my truck on the last day of rifle season.I saw over 20 deer that day and 18 elk by 10:00am.the only reason I went that far back is because I new the areas was logged in 2001 and it was one of the few places around that had food and cover.That's a steep mountainous area in Sinnemahoningwhere the logs where also air-lifted out.It's pretty expensive to do that and not always practicle.
Crazy horse,you need to revisit reality or at least make an attempt to figure out what reality is.You keep forgetting that the PGC is understaffed and underfunded.Habitat work takes manpower,money and equiptment.They already cut non-valuable trees and do a bunch of habitat improvements.Maybe you should see the work the do in Clearfield,Elk and Jefferson counties.They would do more but they need more money and more manpower.This winter I'll be out there cutting aspen on SGL 93 with the grouse society.Maybe you like to pitch in and help. |
RE: baiting deer in Pa
Doug, the agency always seems to have an excuse. They don't spew excuses when it come to Elk Habitat. I guess that's because sooooo many Pennsylvania elk hunters are in agreement.
All I can say is that when a land manager has better than 65,000 acres of Game Lands to manage and only 4 or 5 workers on his staff, he really can't get a whole lot done. It's not the land managers fault. The fault lies at the feet of the Executive group in control of major funding, operations and planning. Those are executive duties. That cannot be denied. It's obvious that you are living in a blessed area. Unfortunately some or should I say a lot of we PA hunters are not. Humble yourself to at least acknowledge that some of us can't travel great distances and some of us have commitments to camps that we've sunk many dollars and time into. I believe the deer numbers will come back, andwith a vengence. Once again the agency will come under fire and this time for having far too many deer in every corner of the state. Only when that happens they will have driven and discouraged many hunters out of the sport and there will only be "Alpha" hunters to do the killing. Do you think there are enough of you "A"s to do the job? |
RE: baiting deer in Pa
ORIGINAL: DougE You keep forgetting that the PGC is understaffed and underfunded.Habitat work takes manpower,money and equiptment. There have always been millions of dollars available every year for habitat improvement projects and that the only reason they are not done is because the PGC applies these dedicated funds to the costs of timbering -- Enron accounting at its best! These funds, plus the millions in Pittman-Robinson reimbursements, are available every year. There is no shortage of money for habitat improvement; there is, however, a shortage of will to spend it where it will do the most good. The next time someone tells you that the PGC is underfunded and needs money for habitat work, ask them what happened to the habitat money from the last increase. |
RE: baiting deer in Pa
For year after year they didn't cut even close to one percent and you throw that in? It has never been an issue that they should cut more than that amount. Once again you are trying to muddy the waters. I repeat whatI said before: you are not playing with a full deck! To everyone else: beware of this person! |
RE: baiting deer in Pa
bionic,. i hunt a lot here in 2g.i am retiredsupervisor.anyhow, i hunt about 3 to 4 days a week from archery to last day of flintlock.i come from a great hunting background. i saw around 34 deer in that time period. some of those 34 same deer i saw from first day of archery,.so count could be down around 20 that were real count .i could have taken doe, i choose not too. these 20 i saw covered around 40 miles of hunting.half of those were on privateland, lets say about 12 out of 20 or so.out of that i saw around 5 bucks,2 legal. i hunted 1 of those until flintlock,yes, i did not get him. so, i could have taken doe but what would have been left for this year. doug, says HABITAT is reason for no fawns, so if i shot doe, no fawns and add in his habitat. well, you see.does that mean there are lots of deer in 2g if ole sproul can kill doe?nooooooooooo.hunters that areputting in time,day in ,day out can get a DOE. buck is another story now, they are scare and very hard to get with pressure that is on deer now to eradicate them and hunters after MEAT now and not after a buck ,like me.BUT ,many hunters that go out in gangs each year,are not even seeing many deer. some only saw 2 doe,they killed those for 3 days of hard hunting.just because a hunter gets a doe and says it was easy, does not mean lots of deer are left.they are putting in time, as doug does and driving all over state to get one. as crazy horse said, most cant do this or have camps.most dont have the time to scout all over state. i agree,the ones , like me that spend time in woods, 4 days a week,have big advantage over ones that dont. BUT, that does not mean its easy or there are lots of deer because ole sproul can get one.now, you have ,say 50 hunters after 3 deer. it used to be, 300 deer, for every 50 hunters.
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RE: baiting deer in Pa
ORIGINAL: Bionicrooster For year after year they didn't cut even close to one percent and you throw that in? It has never been an issue that they should cut more than that amount. Once again you are trying to muddy the waters. I repeat whatI said before: you are not playing with a full deck! To everyone else: beware of this person! |
RE: baiting deer in Pa
Crazyhorse,I don't know that I live in a blessesd area.We have mostly public land that gets hunted hard,although admittedly,many camps are empty and pressure is way down.The public land around here isn't nearly as rugged as it is in the northern part of 2G and around the Sproul so it generally gets covered pretty good for the most part.Perhaps we are blessed around here as far as thehabitat improvemnts go on our state game lands.I argue that the PGC does a great job because that's what I see around here.Our gamelands have much better habitat than most of the state forest property and most of the private land.I do realize that I'm lucky to live where I hunt and I can spend alot more time scouting than the average person.However,I killed a dmap doe on Moshannon state forest last archery season and only spent one day in there scouting.I killed another dmap doe on the last day of rifle season and never stepped foot on that property before that day.I simply hunted where I knew some timber had been cut and followed a topo to the area.I actually just planned on taking my gun for a walk that day and to explore a new spot.
Ihave plenty of criticism for the PGC butI give them credit where I feel it's do.I think the Elk program is somewhat of a joke and I think it's counter productive to move more elk into overbrowsed habitat.I live on the edge of the elk range and admit that they do very little for me.I alsoadmit that there isn't a habitat problem everywhere and I don't like the way that the whole state is managed at 21 deer per forested square mile.There's many areas,some just 10 minutes south of here than can and do safely support much more deer than that.However,much of the northern tier has been severly damaged by the decades of overbrowsing by a herd that was much too large.The deer weren't the only factor that put us in this position but at this point,they're probably the biggest limiting factor effecting successful regeneration.I'd like to see more deer but I want to see the habitatrespond in a positive manor before that's allowed to happen.Fortunately,I'm beginning to see that happen in mnay places so i'm willing to settle for less deer.Furthermore,I'm sick and tired of the crazy conspiracy theories people dream up.The PGC is in a tough spot but they do the best with what they have.Are they perfect?No way but they aren't out to eliminate all the deer like so many claim.This is a very complicated issue and even the experts don't have all the answers.They do know enough to get us going is the right direction.That doesn't mean some areas won't have some cold spots but there's no way tomicromanage the whole state.Habitat work is very important but it takes time and money whick is something the PGC is lacking at this point. Mocha,the last increase was nine years ago.They hired additional personel at that time.In fact a friend of mine was hired on the food and cover crew when that happened.Operating expenses have continued to climb but revenues have decreased.it's easy to see what happened.Do you think they're purposefully not doing more habitat improvements?What would be their motivation for doing so? |
RE: baiting deer in Pa
All I know is that as part of the deal to sellthe last increase, the PGC created a Habitat Improvement Advisory Committee made up of hunters (most of whom represented groups), legislators and other govt. officials.
Afterthis committee found out that the dedicated habitat funds were being applied against the costs of timbering (even though the PGC had promised not to do that), the committee was summarilydisbanded. Vern Ross was the Ex. Director and I am not a mindreader; you should ask him about his motivation. BTW, unlike what you have stated, those operating funds did not decrease -- they were siphoned off and misapplied. |
RE: baiting deer in Pa
That misappropriation (of dedicated Habitat Funds) could lead to suspension of Pittman/Robertson funding as this would be a breech of commitment on the part of the PGC.
In fact, Pittman/Robertson has been looking into this matter as we speak. If you ask for a FOIA on the matter you will be told that the matter is still under investigation. Let's see,....Hmmmmmm in 1998 Pennsylvania had 1 Million+ hunters. At $6. from each license sold going to Habitat Improvement that would equal $6,ooo,ooo Pittman/Robertson matching funding:$3,000,000 ___________ Total = $9,000,000 The real total since 1998, considering theloss of hunters over the past several years is most likely somewhere in the neighborhood of some..... $60,000,000 Million Dollars. That my fellow hunting friends is one heck of a lot of Habitat Improvement money. It should have gone a long way to improving hunting on Game Lands in Pennsylvania. Does anyone think that there has been $60,000,000 worth of Habitat Improvement on Game Lands in the past 7 years? |
RE: baiting deer in Pa
The operating funds decrease as less lisences are sold.
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RE: baiting deer in Pa
I don't think it's unreasonable to imagine that they spent $9000000 a year on habitat improvements.They've obviously been using the money around here because the food and cover guys are busy all the time.
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RE: baiting deer in Pa
why are they on a 100 year rotation program |
RE: baiting deer in Pa
ORIGINAL: DougE Crazyhorse,I don't know that I live in a blessesd area.We have mostly public land that gets hunted hard,although admittedly,many camps are empty and pressure is way down.The public land around here isn't nearly as rugged as it is in the northern part of 2G and around the Sproul so it generally gets covered pretty good for the most part.Perhaps we are blessed around here as far as thehabitat improvemnts go on our state game lands.I argue that the PGC does a great job because that's what I see around here.Our gamelands have much better habitat than most of the state forest property and most of the private land.I do realize that I'm lucky to live where I hunt and I can spend alot more time scouting than the average person.However,I killed a dmap doe on Moshannon state forest last archery season and only spent one day in there scouting.I killed another dmap doe on the last day of rifle season and never stepped foot on that property before that day.I simply hunted where I knew some timber had been cut and followed a topo to the area.I actually just planned on taking my gun for a walk that day and to explore a new spot. Ihave plenty of criticism for the PGC butI give them credit where I feel it's do.I think the Elk program is somewhat of a joke and I think it's counter productive to move more elk into overbrowsed habitat.I live on the edge of the elk range and admit that they do very little for me.I alsoadmit that there isn't a habitat problem everywhere and I don't like the way that the whole state is managed at 21 deer per forested square mile.There's many areas,some just 10 minutes south of here than can and do safely support much more deer than that.However,much of the northern tier has been severly damaged by the decades of overbrowsing by a herd that was much too large.The deer weren't the only factor that put us in this position but at this point,they're probably the biggest limiting factor effecting successful regeneration.I'd like to see more deer but I want to see the habitatrespond in a positive manor before that's allowed to happen.Fortunately,I'm beginning to see that happen in mnay places so i'm willing to settle for less deer.Furthermore,I'm sick and tired of the crazy conspiracy theories people dream up.The PGC is in a tough spot but they do the best with what they have.Are they perfect?No way but they aren't out to eliminate all the deer like so many claim.This is a very complicated issue and even the experts don't have all the answers.They do know enough to get us going is the right direction.That doesn't mean some areas won't have some cold spots but there's no way tomicromanage the whole state.Habitat work is very important but it takes time and money whick is something the PGC is lacking at this point. Mocha,the last increase was nine years ago.They hired additional personel at that time.In fact a friend of mine was hired on the food and cover crew when that happened.Operating expenses have continued to climb but revenues have decreased.it's easy to see what happened.Do you think they're purposefully not doing more habitat improvements?What would be their motivation for doing so? |
RE: baiting deer in Pa
Habitat funding is reviewed in the Annual Report and can be found on the PGC webpage for review.
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?A=509&Q=166862 Previous years are there as well. |
RE: baiting deer in Pa
"I don't believe PGC is on a 100 year rotation program."
"T", you would be wrong. The agency is most certainly on a 100 year rotation program. |
RE: baiting deer in Pa
1016 posts and you still don't know what you are talking about: show me a "deer eradication programs in PA" post thatI made! |
RE: baiting deer in Pa
"T", you would be wrong. The agency is most certainly on a 100 year rotation program. Some clarification: PGC uses a 100 year rotation with the realization that environmenal factors come into play that do not allow trees become large enough to harvest using the 100 year plan. 6-700,000 acreas are timberable. The rest is wetlands, roads, fields, highly erodable etc. |
RE: baiting deer in Pa
Excuses,...excuses...excuses.....
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RE: baiting deer in Pa
Called checking my sources for accurate information.
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RE: baiting deer in Pa
T- how do they cut. do they do so much in each SGL # or a little in each county. i guess what i mean is how do they choose the areas to cut every year and how much at one spot?
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RE: baiting deer in Pa
That one I can't answer Gobbler because I don't know.
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RE: baiting deer in Pa
okay thanks
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RE: baiting deer in Pa
ORIGINAL: T_in_PA3 Habitat funding is reviewed in the Annual Report and can be found on the PGC webpage for review. http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?A=509&Q=166862 Previous years are there as well. Of course you will see habitat projects, but you should have seen millions of dollars more. |
RE: baiting deer in Pa
LOL
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RE: baiting deer in Pa
"Called checking my sources for accurate information."
"T" there are two things to keep in mind when you inquire of the PGC. 1. This is the agency who promoted a Bear Biologist withNO Deer experience to head up a major deer project; (Esentially working OJT)who even the agency is now trying to distance themselves from because of the failure of the program. 2. This is an agency that the Pittman/Robertson people are investigating. Remember, Virginia recently had a similar situation, and they didn't come away smelling like a rose. |
RE: baiting deer in Pa
I'll even hand youthat one about Alt.The guy spent25 years in the woods studying bears but never knew what over browsing was.I'll agree that the PGC made a mistake with him.They're distancing themselves from him because he's on a crusade to discredit them.
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RE: baiting deer in Pa
ORIGINAL: DougE Mike,I hate baiting as much as the next guy.It's not going to make hunting harder.They're implementing so that deer can be pulled off of the properties where hunter have little to no access.Do you have a better solution? |
RE: baiting deer in Pa
If you use deer scent, you hunt over "Bait."
If you hunt adjecent to an apple orchard, you hunt over "bait." If you hunt near a food plot, you hunt over "bait." If you plant a crop for game and hunt deer near it, you hunt over "bait." If you put out a salt lick or mineral block and remove it when required by law, yet stillhunt that same area (with salt/mineral block removed) you hunt over "bait." If you put out a deer decoy, you hunt over "Bait." Let's face facts fellas, Pennsylvanians have been hunting over "Bait" for many years! |
RE: baiting deer in Pa
Just like hunting stocked pheasants. No difference.
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RE: baiting deer in Pa
ORIGINAL: DougE I'll even hand youthat one about Alt.The guy spent25 years in the woods studying bears but never knew what over browsing was.I'll agree that the PGC made a mistake with him.They're distancing themselves from him because he's on a crusade to discredit them. |
RE: baiting deer in Pa
sproulman,the reason Alt wanted hunters to pass on small doe and fawns was to reduce the herd faster.The fastest and most efficient way to reduce the herd is to shoot matures does.They produce the most fawns and their fawns have a much better survival rate.I really don't have much of the problem with the plan Alt implemented.What I have a problem with is the way he sold it.Instead of being honest and telling hunters the truth,he made ridiculous claims that could never come true.You can't reduce the herd to the levels he was shooting for and expect to have more and bigger bucks.You also can't expect the buck harvest to increase after the first year of AR when you're still reducing the herd.the biggest thing that bothered me about Alt is how he tried to claim the herd was actually increasing as of 2003.The guy's nuts.
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RE: baiting deer in Pa
as clueless as you say i am,i agree that killing the older doe will hurt numbers of deer born, not habitat causing it.you look now and you very seldom see older doe. most look to be just over 2 years old.i said this too many times,you cant kill doe and fawns like is being done nowand expect to have deer or nice bucks.the horn restriction should have not been allowed for junior hunters and us old timers.most i talk to want a NICE buck not a spike.
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RE: baiting deer in Pa
Relax Sproulman,you'll have plenty of deer over the next couple of years.They severly cut allocations this year and the past two mild winters combined with a low kill last year and excellent mast crop will provide plenty of targets this fall.I live in an area that's protected the deer for the past 50 years.The habitat is totally destroyed and the deer are usually in pretty poor shape.This year they came out of winter in good shape because of all the acorns and i'm seeing twin fawns all over this property.That's something I haven't seen in quite a few years.You better believe the habitat and health of the does has a direct bearing on how many fawns make it until fall.
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