RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

The problem is,if you clearcut too much timber,you end up with browse that's out of the deer's reach within 15 years.Then you're back at square one until the trees begin producing mast which can take another 50 years.We simply can't cut too much because in most cases,we'll end with junk.The major point I'm trying to make is that so many people are belly-aching about the PGC getting a fee increase.Guys want more deer than the habitat can support and they expect the PGC to fix the habitat.unfortunately the PGC controls a very small percentage of the land.They can't fix the problems on private land and on state forests.Simply clearcutting the state is not the answer and it's something thePGC can't do anyway.I don't mean to direct this at you butI just hear it all the time and it isn't that simple to do.

I don't think the deer caused all of these habitat problems.I think they were a major cause but I think the manner in which it was cut was just as much to blame.What everyone needs to understand is that we're facing a much different situation today that we did 50 years ago.We have a maturing forest that definately slows regeneration.We have a lack of forest fires and very little understory that should be present in a healthy forest.Because of these conditions,the carrying capacity is much lower and it takes fewer deer to impact any regeneration.People also have to realize that hunters didn't kill all the deer.We had two brutal winters back to back in 2003 and 2004 with hardly any mast crop.Alot of deer died in the northern tier and fawn recruitment went down the drain.Once a doe loses 25% of her body weight,she'll most likely lose her fawns or actually reabsorb them.That's something most hunters never consider because they don't see it.That's a sign of poor habitat conditions and the first thing that's needs tdone is fixing the habitat.No one should be demanding more deer until that's fixed.

Most maples are very shade tolerant and hard maple is worth as much right now as red oak is.Black cherry is another speciesthat's worth alot of money but it's not a preferred browse species.If this was all about money,they'd be encouaging a black cherry forest to grow.it's easy to grow.the seeds can lay dormant in the soil for a decade and the deer generally leave it alone.This is about having a balanced ecosystem and right now,it's out of wack.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

Like I said, some good points there. You're right, The GC does not control the way the forests are managed. I do think that clearcutting would kick start the solution in a big way, but like you said, this would only last a short while and some other measures would have to come into play to maintain the progress. I know maples will grow in the shade, but they don't grow much. We have some maples in our yard at camp with a mature canopy overhead and they have not changed much in the last 10 to 15 years. Just a skinny pole with a few mostly barren long limbs. In the front of the property where we cut some huge trees down, the maples have exploded and grown triple their size in a few years. Sunlight makes a huge difference. Generally, from my observations, black cherry will begin to germinate where there is a new edge and sunlight filters through somewhat. I don't see them germinating under full canopy. I just don't. If you notice a mature black cherry stand, you won't see any saplings growing, just bare dirt and leaves. With a million seeds falling a year there, one would think something should happen, but it doesn't. Where the stand meets an edge, such as a road or powerline or a section of blowdowns, there will be saplings everywhere. Those curious looking dowel rod type sticks growing everywhere.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

You're right about cherry.It needs some sun but it doesn't need to be in a clearcut.The reasonI mentined black cherry is because of it's value and resistance to deer browsing.If this was all about timber revenues,they could concentrate on cherry without worrying about how many deer we have.

There's alot of interesting exclosure in this area that were put up for different reasons.Most were cut prior to fencing but some weren't.In alsmost every case,there's a huge difference in what you find inside compared to outside.

What you've observed with red maple is also correct.Light makes a difference but it will still grow under a mature canopy and it offers excellent deer browse.In the fall when the leaves start to change,the deer also key in on the freshly fallen leaves.Striped maple also gets hit hard around here and it grows very well under a canopy.The probem is,it quickly grows out of the reach of the deer.Witch hazel and hobble bush are two more preffered bowsespecies that are shade tolerant.They usually get hammered before they get a chance to grow and about the only time you'll find hobble bush is behind a fence.Oak will germinate under a canopy and survive off the reserves of the acorn for a year or two.However,unless the canopy opens somewhat,the seedling will die.Even under a mature canopy,a healthy forest will have a mid-level canopy.Once the canopy is opened,that mid-story will take off.I never tried to say light wasn't important.However,when you see an understory with nothing but ferns and laurel,you have a deer problem and that's the case accross much of the northern tier.Deer need to consume about five pounds of browse a day in order to survive a hard winter.When there's no browse and we have 3 feet of snow cover,some deer die(mature bucks first)and the recruitment goes way down.That's what we're seeing the effects of right now in this part of the state.

2004 was the worst year I ever had.I scout constantly and hunt at least four days a week.I killed abuck and a couple doe during archery season but the deer were few and far between.I also only saw a few fawns.This past year was a different story.Last year we had a mild winter and a fair mast crop.the deer made it through winter in good shape and recruitment went up.I didn't see a ton of deer but I saw deer most times I hunted.Since hunting season closed,I've been seeing alot of deer.The mast crop was excellent this year and the winter was extremely mild.As a result,I'm looking forward to a really good fall.What many need to realize is that because of the lack of browse in the northern tier,deer health is heavily depenent on the mast crop which is not reliable from year to year.I've killed as many doe as I had tags for the past few years and I plan on doing the same this year.Until the habitat is in better shape around here,we shouldn't let the herd increase much.the decrease in allocations last year and another decrease this year is a big concern of mine.Two mild winters in a row along with a good mast crop will swell the poulation.That's the last thing we need right now because the habitat is just starting to respond to lower deer numbers.I'd rather suffer with low deer numbers right now than have unhealthy habitat for the rest of this century.Once the habitat is in better shape,we can get back to 20-25 overwinter deer.We should never see the days of 50+ deer a day but 20-25 overwinter deer will give us arond 30+ deer in hunting season if the habitat is in good shape.Sometimes you have to take a few steps backward in order to move ahead.That's exactly what we were doing but if we move forward too fast,any progrees will be lost.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

I never really looked into the reason but, I don't see much in the way of oaks up in the Northern Tier. As you go North the oaks thin out and by the time you hit the ANF there are none. You seem to know alot about trees, why is this? I think this has to do with Latitude, sun exposure etc. The mast crop up there consists of Beechnuts mostly.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

Pa is divided into two major groups of forest types.You have the northern hardwoods sections(about 40% of Pa)which considt mainly of cherry,maple,beech.birch,pine etc.It's rare to find an oak in these areas because they aren't supposed to grow there.The Alleghany national forest is mostly northern hardwoods.Most of the deer exclosure studies have been done in this forest type.I think it's safe to say that deer have a bigger impact on northern harwoods than they do oak.The second major forest type is oak/hickory(another 40% of Pa).I don't know how much altitude effects oaks becasue the highest point on I 80 east of the Miss. is a few miles from my house and it runs right through a huge expanse of oak hickory.In my opinion,deer impact oak hickory forests somewhat less than they do northern hardwoods.I'm not sure why this is the case.Perhaps the mast makes a difference.The area where I live is primarily oak/hickory and it's responding very well to lower deer numbers.The oak regeneration is incredible when the area is cut correctly and the deer numbers are in check.That wasn't the case just a few years ago.

I'm no expert on trees but this subject has become somewhat of an obsession for me over the past five years.When this deer management plan was put into place,I was somewhat outraged and I wanted to prove the experts wrong.I figuered that I had no right to bitch unless i knew the facts. So I researched the subject constantly,went on habitat tours and got heavily involved with a deer management and habitat project near my home.We've had nationally renowned experts like Dr Susan Stout of the US forests service and biologists and foresters from PSU,DCNR and the US forest service help us.I've become very good friends with some of these guys andI constantly hound them for information.In the end,I realized I was wrong and they were right.The facts don't lieand they were easy to understand once I opened my mind.I really don't know what to say.Deer and turkey hunting consume a huge part of my life.Understanding what they need to thrive has taken up most of my free time and it's made me a better hunter in the end.

Everyone of these experts that I've had the pleasure of dealing with want to do what's best for the deer and the habitat.Even the foresters aren't out to kill every deer.This is a very complicated issue and even the experts are wrong about some things.However,they have reams of evidence that shows how much deer impact the habitat under different conditions.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

Perhaps the Oaks don't grow up there because that area is an ancient glaciated region with poor soils for the most part. As a matter of fact, there is no real soil there. Just sandstone (river rock) in various sizes from sand to giant boulders. Just try digging a ditch up that way sometime. You'll have very soft sand for a ways and then you hit a boulder the size of a car, then some more sand. Oaks like fairly moist soil conditions. Hard to keep wet when water runs straight thru sand like it does. Just guessing here.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

There may be something to that.About 20 miles from herein Elk countythere is a mountainous region of state game lands that's pretty much all oak/hickory.As you head into the Alleghany national forest,it starts to abrubtly turn into northern hardwoods and it stays that way without an oak tree to be found.I'll check into that and find out why.