GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

Hunters facing hike in license fee

By Martha Raffaele
The Associated Press
o3/28/06

HARRISBURG -- Pennsylvania hunters could pay $10 to $15 more for an adult hunting license under legislation designed to boost state game revenues.
Rep. Bruce Smith, chairman of the House Game and Fisheries Committee, said the current revenue from licenses and fees does not cover the state game commission's operating costs.
The commission does not get any funding from state tax revenues.
Smith, R-York, is introducing two bills with varying fee increases which would take effect July 1, 2007. One would raise the basic adult resident hunting license from $19 to $29; the other would raise the fee to $34.
Smith acknowledged that the prospect for either bill's passage is uncertain in an election year. He is not seeking re-election.
"These two bills ... are a starting point. They are not carved in stone. No one enjoys paying more," Smith said.
The state sold more than 1 million licenses during the 2004-05 fiscal year.
Smith, one of only two House members sponsoring the legislation, was joined at a Capitol news conference by representatives of several sportsmen's groups. He noted that the Pennsylvania Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs voted last fall to support a hunting-license fee increase.
Ted Onufrak, president of the sportsmen's federation, said he was disappointed that more legislators who hunt are not supporting Smith.
"It is our hope that others will also do the right thing and show their support and commitment to keeping the game commission adequately funded," Onufrak said.
The game commission has cut services over the years to compensate for gas-price increases and other rising costs, spokesman Jerry Feaser said.
The agency has left 66 of 732 salaried job vacant, shut down regional toll-free numbers, and halved the number of pheasants it raises for hunters from 200,000 to 100,000 birds a year, he said.
"We want to be able to conduct hunter and trapper education courses and other wildlife programs," Feaser said. "We want to be able to respond to calls about poaching and other violations."
Rep. Edward G. Staback, the ranking Democrat on Smith's committee, said he would have a hard time supporting a hunting license increase, given that hunters in his district frequently complain the commission's deer management policy has excessively thinned the herd.
"How am I going to vote for a hunting license increase and try to justify it? It isn't going to work. You've got to start paying some attention to what the hunting public (is) trying to tell you," said Staback, D-Lackawanna.
Smith is also introducing a third bill that would create a $20 conservation stamp that both hunters and non-hunters -- such as hikers and bird-watchers -- would have to purchase to use state game lands.
Lawmakers considered creating such a stamp before approving the last license-free increase, but sportsmen's organizations opposed the idea, Smith said.
"Many of their members view the gamelands as belonging to sportsmen and hunters. They want it to stay completely under the jurisdiction of sportsmen and hunters," he said

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

Staback is a clown.I heard him speak and heard some of his opinions at a deer hearing last week.When someone mentioned that they were trapping and tagging deer in the Sproul state forest,he actually thought they were trapping them and relocating them to areas with less deer.He didn't appear to be up on the issues for a guy that's on the game and fisheries committee.Anyone that wouldoppose a lisence increase isbiting their nose off to spite their face.We need the PGC now more than ever.If the PGC goes belly-up,we'll have an agency funded by non-hunter's dollars or be taken over byDCNR.Everyone whining about no deer will really have something to whine about when that happens.The PGC hasn't recieved a lisence increase in over 9 years.Who can any entity be expected to keep up with inflation and rising operating costs without more money?

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

Yeh I agree, they need an increase, whether a person agrees or disagrees with them, by the way, did I read somewhere right, does the governer appoint an empty commisioner's seat when they retire????



The last issue of the PA outdoor News was talking about commisioner Mohr out of Lancaster retiring and Rendell then appoints his vaccancy, is that right????

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

As much as I hate to pay more money for anything, I support an increase as well. I have been hunting for the past 6 years by only paying $15-$21. $9 for the Junior Comb. Lic. that includes the regular lic, archery stamp, muzzleloader stamp, and furtakers lic. Then I got 1 or 2 antlerless tags. So for under $25 bucks I was able to hunt everything I wanted. A great deal in my eyes. An increase will cost me a lot more this year because I have to buy the adult lic, but still, I love hunting so much that the increase won't deter my mind that I'm getting a great deal.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

As a non resident I am already paying $101. for Pa. NR license, we dont charge that much in Delaware for NR license. Wealso pay taxes on the camp and contribute some to the economy, groceries, gas, liqour, there are about 15 or 16 in our camp during the two week stretch, and adjoining camps from Delaware also have approx 2 doz hunters for the time frame...and again for Spring Gobbler,

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

I spent 84.00 last season for a hunting licence here in NY,that includes bow,muzzleloader,regular gun season,small game,turkey and trapping. It's was well worth the price and I didn't even kill a deer.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

I support the increase.The other option is for the dcnr to take over and that would mean antis getting their foot in the door.Look at that mess in NJ with the bear hunt.
But I am against the conservation stamp for SGL's.These lands were bought by the sportsmen and should stay being the main focus of hunting.If other groups started having a say we'd see big changes.
Maybe an option for sportsmen when they purchase their license to donate to conservation on gamelands and/or the purchase of additional SGL's.
Under the limited manpower and funds the PGC does a pretty darned good job of habitat improvement on those lands.But SGL's are managed for wildlife and if you compare the forest lands you'll see what I mean.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

A license increase is long overdue. TheHouse Game and Fisheries committee knew the PGC would need one within 6 or 7 years, when they finally got around to granting them the last one in '98 or '99.

Now the committee members are pretendingthey weren't told this back then and using hunter discontent for an excuse to monkey around and play politician. Phooey.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

And who do you think is calling the shots as far as HR is concerned in PA today the DCNR. Think back about one year ago when DCNR was withholding funding to purchase game-lands if their demands were not met. Look at the land enrolled in the DMAP program 95% of that land is State forestland managed by the DCNR. If you think anyone in Harrisburg is worried about how you as a hunter feel on Hr your fooling yourself. Don’t get me wrong the PAGC is a good organization but until they put hunters first and stop catering to every threat and whimper that DCNR has about DCNR wanting more doe killed I’m not behind any license increase. If they do receive this increase will it allow them to become self reliant when it comes to purchasing land or will they still be the red headed step child knocking at DCNR’s door begging for a hand out. And in the end we as hunters of this state are given the shaft

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

20.00 doe tags also is needed. 1 million doe tags.that is 20,000,000

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

IMHO thats a pretty ballsy move since theres quite a bit of upset deer hunters.....but i agree.....i spent something like 75 bucks this year...with an extra turkey tag and 4 doe tags....thats like a dollar a day to me.......all i can say is they better start working to make the hunters happy.......they can jack up prices all they want but i know all to many guys that quit already.....and more to come if stuff dont shape up.......i know theres still a good bit of deer out there.....and i know its the hunters that killed the does...but what do you expect......give out more licenses hunters are going to kill the deer thinking the agency knows what its doing...not trying to turn this into a debate...but most of us seen the effects of HR...just hope it turns out for the best...ive never shot a mature deer with a small body....i dont think they had much problem eating!!! but oh well....i myself only plan to be in the state another 3-4 years if everthing works out for my future........

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

Bowhunter,DCNR isn't calling the shots.Yes they were told do do what ever was politically necessary to get the herd reduced.That's right on their website and it was imperative that they did that to keep their forest certification.No doubt politics were involved.However,last year the PGC reduced the allocations in 2f and 2F byover 40% and DCNR threw a fit about that.They also wantedto allow baiting,group hunting and no limit placed on the amount of dmap tags an individual could get.The PGC didn't cave into any of that and greatly reduced the allocations last year,despite DCNR'S wishes.As you can see,DCNR isn't calling the shots but it's easy to imagine the situation if they were.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

Bowhunter,you also have to realize that more land aquizitions are not going to be more frequent,even with an increase.The PGC is only allowed to spend $400 an acres and that type of land is getting hard to come by.I believe it would take an act of legislation to get that changed.

Cardeer,$20 doe tags is something I'd support but then people would be screaming it's all about money.This has been considered before.

Mauser,the PGC cannot cave into the wishes of the hunters who want more deer than the land can support.That's what happened over the past 70 years and that's why the forests are in the poor condition they are.We simply had way too many deer for way too long and it will take a long time with much lower deer numbers to fix the problem.I live and hunt in 2G where much of the complaining is taking place.I see the poor shape of the forest from years of overbrowsing and I'm seeing signs of recovery now that the herd has been reduced.Even with a much smaller herd,I'm having no problems finding and killing deer on public land.Where the habitat is poor,there's few deer in these parts.Where the habitat is staring to recover,there's plenty.Now isn't the time to change ditrections and start increasing the herd too fast.Any progress made with the habitat will be lost and we'll be looking at another population crash when we have the next severe winter.

Less deer is abitter pill for many to swallow but unfortunately,it's themedicine we need right now.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

GOOD NEWS...heck I thought you were going to say they tossed the bunch out on their ear..there has never in this county been such mistrust of any outdoor organization by the vast majority of hunters that support it..they have mishandled the ball for a long time and it's now coming back to bite them bigtime!! When an agency is not believed at a level higher than this it's usually replaced....credibility= ZERO and that might be giving it more than it's earned... $34 ,, $29 for this and that, an extra $20 and a $21, here a $20 there a $20....I spend $100's of dollars every year in all the states that surround PA and in NONE is there a perception of it's wildlife management like ours..too bad, from over a million to 635 000 adult licenses...vast majorities of land now off limits to regular JOES..something has gone amuck !!!!!

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

Good posts again DougE. Things are no different here in NY. Alot of guyshereIn NYstill don't have a clue why we need HR. One or two bad winters in a row and alot of deer will starve to death. Our winter brouse is in a bad state.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

I absolutely,unequivocally, support a license fee increase!! To do differently would continue to put additional pressures on an already stretched-past-the-breaking point organization. Regardless of how you feel about the PGC, their demise could only lead to unthinkable alternatives.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

Frank,you're correct about the mis-trust.With all the rumors and conspiracy theories floating around out there,it's easy to see where things are heading.I'll be the first one to say that Alt made alot of ridiculous claims that could never come true.His crazy rhetoric definately put a wedge between the hunters of Pa and the PGC.Things would be alot better today if he'd have just stood up and focused on the habitat and the need to reduce the herd instead of waving racks over his head.honesty goes a long way and he was short in that department.Still,the biggest problem is that very few hunters understand the relationship between the deer and the habitat.Ask most hunters to differentiate between a beech,oak and striped sapling and they can't do it.the hunters need educated and someone somewhere failed to accomplish that.I'm living with alot less deer but I have no problems with it because the state of the habitat is terrible around here.we're finally starting to see positive results now that the herd is down but it won't happen overnight.Instant gratification and game management will never go hand in hand.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

Doug,

Great post. The only thing I can add is on the quote above. The statement is 100% on. But to sell and idea to hunters, big racks go over allot better than less deer. Othrrwise it would have never started...

As for the license increase. Ours have been going up to in MA. But if you think about it, I could spend 100$ easy taking my girl to a show, dinner, and drinks. Thats only one night. For less than that I get 365 days of hunting and fishing at pennnies per hour....

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

On the land that is managed by the DCNR DMAP tags are readily available. And what criteria are met to obtain tags for state forestland? Ask and receive? I read all over that the DCNR is attempting to manage the deer on their land well deer management is not their job that job belongs to the PAGC. Yet we sit back and accept the idea that the DCNR has the right to as many DMAP tags as they want. I hunt state forestland and I ran into a forester and asked him where are the deer? The small area was given 125 DMAP tags. His reply to me was I work this land year round and I do not hunt here need I say more. When those that are in the area year round wont hunt it do to the herd decimation over the past 5 years. The PAGC has a tough road ahead as far as its credibility with hunters. Gary Alt did more to disenfranchise hunters from the PAGC than any anti hunting organization could have ever done. A license increase may be needed but so is doing what’s best or at least listening to those that pay

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

Iagree with you about Gary Alt.

DCNRknows what'shappening on their land better than the PGC does.They have more forester and biologists out in the field than the PGC does.I'm suredmap was abused in certain areas of the state but that isn't the case in every district.I live in district 9 and the district forester is a very good friend of mine.Two seasons ago they considered expanding dmap to other areas of the state forests herebut decided not to in the end because they started to see favorable regeneration in these areas.People can keep beating this to death but the habitat was terrible on the state forests around here.The only regeneration occuring around here was in an area that got leveled by a tornado in 1985.The herd exploded there and after about 12-15 years it turned into pole timber and the deer started to disapear somewhat.Unfortunately the huge herd completely devistated the surrouning forest and now the understory is nothing but ferns.We had two back to back winters in 2003 and 2004.The mast crop was minimal those years and there was very little if any preffered browse.Take a look around these state forests some time.One deer needs to eat about 5 lbs of browse a day to survive a hard winter.Multiply that by 60-90 days and the number of deer present.Once you do this,it's easy to see how even a small herd can ruin the habitat when the habitat is already stressed.When you have little browse and a heavy snow cover,what do you expect the deer to eat?Alot of deer died those yearsand fawn recruitment went way down.Once a doe loses 25% of her body weight,she will most likely either abort the fetus and reabsorb it into her systen or the fawn will die from malnutrition shortly after birth.These effects take a year or two to show up in the herd and that's what we're seeing now in this part of the state.This is habitat related and the worst thing we can do is to let the herd rebound before the habitat can be fixed.We had too many deer for way too long.It's as simple as that and now we have to pay the price with lower deer numbers.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

I, wholeheartedly, support a license increase. I would have no problem personally paying twice what we pay now for the privelege of hunting in PA's woods. Think about how much some folks pay to do some activities that don't last one tenth as long as some of our hunting seasons and I guarantee that they don't get the enjoyment out of it that we do.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

You're right it is the best bargain going.I dish out way more than 1k a year for activities my kids are in and I don't even get to spend the time with them while they're doing it.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

Now think about it was it the deer that were responsible for the lack of regrowth or was it due to the forest canopy not allowing light to the forest floor. If the deer herd were decimating all the new growth you would never have seen it in the areas hit by the tornado. The regrowth you are seeing now in the areas with a mature canopy most of these seedlings will not survive to maturity due to a lack of sunlight. In the areas that were opened up the regrowth will be everywhere you look. Hopefully someone like your forester friend hits those areas and plants oak, apple, cherry, crab apple seedlings so these areas are not over taken by a more invasive specie like maple or birch The problem we now face is we have lowered the deer population and there is no hard and fast plan on paper to begin opening up the forest through timbering and promoting regrowth and replanting. So the areas that may have been over browsed will receive little if any help in stimulating regrowth

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

I am totally amazed at how people blame the deer population for all the forest regrowthproblems, especially the people on here. Seldom is it mentioned about the canopy or acid rain.


You brought up a good point, bowhunter2117, when you said about the tornado.

I hunt in Greene Co. and there is NO problem with forest regrowth there. some places are so thick that you can't even get down and crawl through. { I have first hand experience in this area}


The PGC uses the excuse for selling so many doe tags is because of the over browsing of deer causing forest regeneration problems. Why then, is the PGC selling so many licenses in WMU 2a? There is no forest regrowth issue in that area. They sell doe tags to make money, lots of money. Now that all the hunters aren't seeing deer they say that they had to stop the over browsing to save the trees.

Before they wanted to decrease the doe population to help the deer herd be more healthy and to make way for Gary Alt's super bucks and to balance the buck to doe ratio. Everyone remembers Gary holding up those antlers and showing the size difference, as he tried to sell the AR idea. What's Gary doing now? Selling used cars?


I understand that the price on everything goes up, and the PGC needs more money. But I also have a hard time paying more money to the PGC for how bad of a managment job they have done. They bit the hand that fed them.

They tried to lie and say hunters weren't going off of the road far enough to find the deer that they said were definitely there. Now theyadmit that maybe there weren't as many deer as they originallythought there was. ( Mismanagement at its finest



I'm to the point that I would like to see the PGC fold up and the DCNR take over. The hunting here is already bad. I'll just start hunting West Virginia again. I might even take up my buddy's offer to hunt Maryland and to hell with PA. At least I'll be paying the game commissioners of those other states for a job well done.


The PGC is the laughing stock of the United States, for their mismanagement practices.

Just a few years ago they were on the news forpublic relation issues and how they treat people. I even heard that Johny Carson had a joke about the PGC in his monologue.

When I hunt in other states and meet their Game Commission officials, they always treat you nice and ask how the hunting is going. Here in PA they act like you are a criminal right off of the bat. One time I actually got interregated for being in the woods armed only with a camera. They checked the camera all out and checked my license. Ask me all kinds of questions of why I had a camera. I had to show ID to match the license on my back. I had a camera for crying out loud. It should not have mattered whose license was on my back. I was on private ground, I might add.

I think the PGC would get what it deserves if they went belly up.

I know some of you will preach of how bad it will be when the dcnr is holding the reins, but right now, I don't care. I'll just hunt in one of my neighboring states and gladly pay the extra money to them instead of the idiots who manage things in this state.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

bowhunter,light is ceratinly an issue or lack of in many cases.That tornado area regenerated because it's a huge area and it overwhelmed the deer.That regeneration also increased recruitment,provided cover and the herd exploded.Unfortunately the surrounding forests got hammered and now there's no understory.At this point,the growth in the tornado area is out of the reach of the deer and now everything that gets cut has to be fenced.While light is a big compenent with regeneration,especially oak,there should still be an understory in a mature forest.Many prefered browse species are shade tolerant but the deer hammer them around here because the habitat is so poor.When the habitat is stressed,it takes few deer to impact it even more.Also,while deer aren't the only factor effecting regeneration,the carrying capacity is much lower in pole andsaw timber than it is in seedling/sapling stands.Since much over Pa is old growth,the carrying capacity is much lower than it used to be.Cutting more timber is an option but if you cut too much,you'll be in the same position again in abot 10-15 years.

Windwalker,the situation in 2a is much different than the situation in 2G.2A has alot of agriculture and fragmented habitat will always support more deer than contiguous forests.Besides,farms aren't considered as deer habitat by the PGC because we can't expect farmers to foot the bill for our hobby.On top of that,the herd in 2G was overpopulated for way too long compared to 2A.how good was the hunting in 2a during the 50's?You just haven't had the numbers of deer in 2a like 2G had for the same amount of time.They're trying to stop the probelm before you end up in the same situation 2G faces today.

While acid rain is a factor,it's overated.Explain why the exclosures around here are full of new growth and the areas that weren't fenced have nothing but non-prefered species growing?The same rain falls inside the fence as it does outside.Don't say they treat the exclosures because they don't.I'm on a deer management committe for 9500 acres of private land in clearfield county.We erected exclosures and the growth inside the fences is phenominal.We didn't traet these areas in any way.We just kept the deer out.Outside the fences,there's no stump sprouts at all,zero.We did a browse impact study last year with PSU and found that 75% of the property had no regeneration at all,even though several hundred acres were recently timbered.Out of the regeneration that was present,75% of it was composed of beech.59%of that was moderately to severly browsed.the deer did this damage.It wasn't acid rain or a lack of light.Twenty minutes from my house,the PGC cut about 100 acres back in 1992.That area turned into a field within 5 years.Six years after they cut it,they put up dozens of small exclosures all over that meadow.today those exclosures are too thick to crawl through yet the outside has nothing but grasses growing.Nothing was planted except a few apple trees and no treatments were used.Explain that.Just a few hundred yards away,they exclosed a section of mature forest with a heavy canopy.After a few years,there was red oak(which will die unless the canopy is opened)cucumber magnolia,red maple,sugar maple,witch hazel,hobblebush and even trillium.Outside the fence there's nothing but ferns and laurel.Explain that.The only thing excluded was the deer.The same amount of rain falls inside the fence as outside and the soil content is the same.there are literally hundreds of these examples all accross the northern tier that were done by scientists.they have a pretty good grasp on how much impact the deer have on regeneration.the evidence is so overwhelming that you can't deny the impact deer have on the forests once you see it.Every now and then an exclosure fails for a variety of reason.However,by and large,deer are one of the biggest factors.It's been scientifically proven and anyone that argues otherwise has never seen the facts.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

Doug, I'd swear you work for the PGC.

Back in the 60's-70's there were tons of deer in 2g.


Now, in the year 2006 we have a regeneration problem. Was there a problem back in the 60's with the habitat supporting the deer population. It would seem to me, that there would be a major problem in the 70's. But I never heard about it back then.


Nature has a way of taking care of itself. If the high deer populations could not be supported, by their habitat, they would starve off in a few seasons. As cruel as it sounds thats what would happen.

I'm sure that deer do have an impact on the regeneration of a forest, but I believe it is overated.

If tornados can knock down a few trees and suddenly there is regenerationwhere did that regeneration come from? Did the Regeneration fairy come along and waive her magic wand?


Just the mere fact that trees are knocked down by a tornado and suddenly there is regrowth proves something. It proves that there is not enough sunlight getting through. You even seem to admit that in your above post. You stated that the deer were overwhelmed and their population exploded.

So I ask you Doug, How did those tornados cause the regeneration?

How?

What "overwhelmed" the deer?

The regeneration caused by what?

Did the tornados cause sunlight to be let in?

YES....YES.....YES

Since the deer population is near extinction up in 2G, you should see all kind of forest regeneration in the very near future, everywhere up there. I will predict that it won't happen.

Try this experiment the next time you are out with your Game Commission buddies. Plant a few trees out in the open where they get plenty of sunlight. Then plant a few back in under the thick ( mature forest) canopy. Come back in three years and look at the difference.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

No,I don't work for the PGC.Yes there were tons of deer in 2gduring the 60's,70's and 80's and the herd crashed after the brutal winter of 1977 just as it crashed in 2004.The reason we're in the situation now is because we had way too many deer for too long.All of the forests that were in the sapling stage while the herd was increasing are now out of the deer's reach.

I never said light wasn't important for regeneration but not all browse species are shade intolerant.Oak is and oak needs sunlight.I said that in my last post.The reason that tornado area regenerated so well is because it's about a half mile wide and miles and miles long.It overwhelmed the deer because it was so big,they couldn't possible overbrowse it.

I am seeing excellent signs of regeneration in many places of 2G where the herd has been reduced.I just vistedone area in Moshannon state forest that has oak so thick you can't walk through it.The stump sprouts are over 6 feet tall since they did a shelter wood cut in this area two years ago.they did another ever bigger shelter wood cut about 6-7 years ago and there isn't an oak sprout left standing because there were way too many deer.

Explain why the regeneration is excellent inside of these exclosures and almost non-existant outside.

Ther herd is far from extinct in 2G.You have to hunt where the habitat is better.I hunted two dmap properties this year for a total of 2 days.I killed a doe on the firstmorning of archery on one state forest.Then I hunted on another state forest in Sinneahoning on the last day of rifle and killed another one.I hunted where they logged an area in 2001 and saw over 20 deer by 10:00am.There was no browse any where else and the browse that was there was reduced to black birch and striped maple.That's what happens in poor habitat.the deer concentrate on the few areas with adequate food during the winter and strip it clean and it doesn't take many deer to do it.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

I can't really comment on the enclosures because I'd have to see the difference myself. I'm sure the vegatation would do better inside because it is protected from thedeer. I did see some enclosures in the Allegheny National Forest but I didn't see much of a difference in or out of it. I'm not sure what those enclosures were for.

I hope you are understanding my point. The tornados knocked down trees and almost instantly there was regeneration.

You just stated again about an area you visited and saw stump sprouts over 6 ft tall.

Timbering + sunlight = stump sprouts

It seems that the area you got your deer at this year was recently timbered. What attracted those 20 deer to that area.
Its like this. they timbered, regrowth started, well, regrowing. Then the deer came and ate back the regrowth. Correct?

It would seem to me that the easiest way to regenerate the forest would be to cut the trees down.

Some people want to just shoot off the deer and expect the forest to regenerate that way. That way will take forever. Cut the darn trees down and as early as the next summer it will start regenerating.


You hunt areas that were recently timbered and see 6ft stump sprouts. You see areas that tornados knocked down trees and you say the deer were overwhelmed. Wouldn't it seem to you that the quickest way to improve the deer habitat up there is to cut down the trees so the forest can start regenerating.

You basicly admit that when areas are timbered, regrowth starts almost immediately.


The areas you hunt are timbered areas. The deer were attracted to that area by the new growth. Of course the deer will eat it back to nothing, theres nothing else to eat because the thick canopy in other areas won't let enough sunlight in to let anything grow. Deer go to where the food is.

Do you hunt in areas where there is a thick canopy over head? How many deer do you see there compared to areas that were timbered?


Let's face it. the deer were attracted to timbered areas because of the regrowth. It doesn't seem all that hard to understand. Cut the trees and the habitat and carring capacity will increase.



JUST CUT THE TREES!

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

I just reread my post.

I will comment on the enclosures. The plants inside are protected from the deer. The deer are starving because there is nothing to eat.

The reason there is nothing to eat is because the canopy won't let anything grow fast enough to supply the deer with something to eat.


Here's an experiment to try:

Take an area and enclose it

Then take an area just out side the fence and timber the heck out of it.

Come back in 3years and see which area has more regrowth.


My money is on the area that was timbered, even with the starving deer eating at it.

Which area is your money on?

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

My opinion is that deer or no deer, a mature forest will not have any regeneration. It is plain as day that as a forest matures, the shorter trees die and fall. These trees did not die off from deer eating at their trunks, they died from being choked out. The only vegetation on the floor of a mature forest would be species that thrive in shadows. How many native tree species in PA will sprout from seed and thrive and grow in shadow? I know that hemlocks will barely exist in shadows but they won't grow one foot in a decade under those conditions. Hardwoods will not grow PERIOD. We need large scale clearcutting, the uglier the better. Where did this mature hardwood paradise in PA come from in the first place? CLEARCUTTING! 100 years ago this state looked like the surface of the moon. Had that not happened, we would not even have deer today. As a matter of fact, deer were reintroduced to this state. There just weren't any. Nothing gets mother nature off her lazytail quicker that large scale devastation. Mature trees.......Public manace.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

First of all,there are many trees that are shade tolerant and will grow under a mature canopy if the deer don't impact them.We have exclosures under a mature canopy that proves this to be true.The regeneration will not be as prevelant as it would if more light was let in.I NEVER SAID LIGHT WAS NOT AN IMPORTANT FACTOR.Hobblebush is a good browse species that is shade tolerant.I haven't seen a hobblebush since 1980 and now they're starting to slowly show up in exclosures.That was a very common and important browse species during the middle part of this century.Unfortunately,a herd that was too big for the habitat ate it all.

In the northern tier the habitat is extremely stressed.There is no understory in huge expanses of forest.As a result,when you cut an area,the deer flock to that cut and consume all the new growth because there isn't sufficient food in the surrounding area.That's why DCNR is forced to fence in the area the cut.You have to realize that DCNR is mandated to cut no more than 70 acres at a time.This has nothing to do with the PGC since they don't manage the state forests.The state forests are managed for timber and that money goes in to the states general fund to benefit all Pennsylvanians.Since hunters only make up 8% of the population,you can't expect the remaining 92% of the state to lose money on timber revenues in order to support our hobby.There's a right way to cut timber and just clearcutting huge tracts of land is financially and ecologically irresponsible.Again,our state forests are managed for timber to benefit everyone in the state.they aren't managed for deer and never will be.When you cut too much timber,it will turn into pole timber in about 12-15 years and the carrying capacity will plummet once again and you'll be in the same situation we're in now.Once again,the point is that when an area is cut and you have too many deer and poor habitat surrounding the cut,it only takes a few deer to destroy any regeneration,even with ample amounts of light.I have all the proof you need to see up here.

Our forests are in very poor shape.Deer are not the only cause of that but it still doesn't change the fact that the carrying capacity is much lower.You mentioned the huge herd of the 60's and 70's.Those 40 years of overbrowsing has taken it's toll.People aren't pulling this stuff out of their rear.There have been so many studies to show this is the case that too argue otherwise is futile.The facts are so obvious.Back to the deer in 2G during the 60's and 70's.Those deer were hideous.It was uncommon to see a buck much bigger than a spike and many 1.5 year olds weren't even legal to shoot becaus they were so malnurished.

It took a long time of mismanaging the deer to get us in the position we're in now.This isn't going to change overnight but there has been progress.

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DougE, being rational and having facts aren't going to change these people's minds. They want to see a deer behind every tree and believe it is thier right because they buy a license to always fill thier tags. You would be lead to believe deer are the only animal in the forest.
IMHO the Game and Fish & Boat both deserve no increases what so ever until they can prove that the monies will be properly used insted of just flushing it down the toilet every year.
What is it if not an increase when for all intents and purposes the pheasant program is scrapped ? Where did the monies go that where allocated for the program in the past? How about the lack of enforcement when it comes to poaching? Some areas of the state it seems almost to be a regular poaching season. The dumping of garbage on SGL with impunity in some places etc etc. One could go on and on with what the agency fails to do on a regular basis year in and year out. Gawd ,wouldn't even want to start on the Fish & Boat.

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duck,where is tannerville and do you hunt in that area?

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The argument always was that the timber interests wanted the deer exterminated because they were gobbling up their valuable cash crop. My opinion is based on that premise. Hardwood species do not germinate and grow as an understory in a mature forest. The best way to regenerate a mature hardwood forest is clearcutting. The plant species that grow in this condition are tremendous. There is so much browse that deer simply cannot make a dent, provided their numbers are kept reasonable. Of course the clearcut will revert back to pole timber in 25 years, but that is the whole idea. Selective cutting is what makes the problem we have today. Not enough of an area is cut first of all (70 acres). Then, many trees are left, which cuts precious sunlight which is the main ingredient in the equation. These trees end up as blowdowns shortly afterward because they were accustomed to sharing the windload with the rest of the forest. There is no sense in it. As a benefit in clearcutting, as areas are clearcut and attract the deer, the shade loving species can grow in the mature areas without being eaten. The problem is that the tree hugging, all or nothing mentality is actually very bad for the forest. I have never wanted a deer behind every tree. I have always said that I feel there ARE too many deer. Not that there areALOT of deer, but too many for the mishandled, mismanaged, poor habitat in this state to properly support. When forests began to be manged with thier aestheticvalue as a factor, we began this downward spiral to what we face today. The entire Northern tier needs leveled. The longer we wait, the worse it will get.

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I agree with an increase in licensing fees, but at the same time people who use public hunting lands for other activities shoul have to pay something. I don't have a plan for it , but we shouldn't have to foot the whole bill.

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I believe that the cost increase is necessary!! Will it be used effectively, that's another thread..........

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Yeah, sure....nice jugs.

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Why is the whole idea to get the forest to the pole timber stage?The dd goal drops to 5 dpsm in pole timber.Once again,the PGC only has control of the game lands.Around here,they do a decent job of cutting.I think they should probably cut a little more but they do rotate cuts every ten years and they do alot of edge cutting.Most of the problems are on private land where the PGC has no control and on state forest lands where they have no control.Most of the private land I see has been cut out of greed and high graded.they took all the good mast producing seed treesleaving nothing for the future.As a result,invasive species that provide verylimited benefit to the deer have taken over.I belong to a lease that has nothing but beech and black birch growing do to this reason.Theturkey hunting is still decent but there's not many deer.You can't blame it on the hunters either because doe aren't aloud to be shot on the property,which I disagree with.The state forests are a whole different probem.Once again,the PGC doesn't control them.Most of the habitat in this part of Moshannon state forest and other state forests where I visited are terrible.On top of that,DCNR is regulated to only cutting 70 acres at atime.When you havepoor habitat and then cut 70 acres,it only takes a small number of deer to destroy any regeneration.that's why they fence in almost every cut.This land is managed for timber not deer and it's owned by the state of Pa.The funds to purchase these lands did not come from lisence sales or Pittman-Robertson monies.Therefore,there is nothing the PGC can do about the way this timber is managed.

Clearcutting is not the best way to get the habitat back.Today,themost successful regeneration of oaks is gained by doing a shelterwood cut.They go in and cut just enough toopen the canopyto get some advanced regeneration.then,over the years,theygo in and cut a little more at a time.You have to leave seed trees.If you go in and clearcut,you'll most likely end up with a bunch of non-preffered browse species.The entire state of Pa was cleacut in the early 20th century and it regenerated like crazy.One of the primary reason that 40% of Pa in covered in oak/hickory forests is because of all the wildfires.These fires kept the invasive thin barked species at bay,allowing the thicker barked species like oak to survive.Over the past 70 years or so,we've been suppressing the forest fires.As a result,Pa and most of the east coast is quickly being taken over by various maples,birch and beech in many areas.The conditions are far diferent today that they were at the turn of the century.So why don't they do controlled burns?Well,Pa has very strict liability laws concerning burns.The person who lights the match is both civilly and criminaly responsible if that fire gets out of hand.If you worked for DCNR or the PGC,would you want to be the guy lighting it?Until these laws are changed,there's not much we can do about it.That's also no fault of the PGC.Also,I hate to repeat myself but there are many,many species that are shade tolerant and will grow under a mature canopy.Most species will grow better in sunlight but there should still be a mid level canopy.Most species grow slower in the shade and it gives the deer time to devour it and never grow out of their reach.Laurel is shade tolerant.Why does it grow under a mature canopy?The answer is,deer usually leave it alone unless they're extremely stressed.Around here it's not uncommon to see a browse line on the laurel which is a very bad sign.

This is a complex issue and no the deer didn't do all the damage all by themselves.It's a combination of things.However,the forests are much different today than they were 50-60 years ago.Because of this,the carrying capacity is lower and it takes less deer to impact the habitat.None of this is the fault of the PGC except for letting the herd get out of control for the past 40 years or so.If they didn't bow to political pressure over the years,we wouldn't need to reduce the herd as much today.We're paying for the sins of the past and so are the deer and the rest of the wildlife that depend on a healthy forest.

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I know I'll eventually be paying for the license increase because the only other option is to quit hunting and the PGCknows theyhave a captive audiance.[/align][/align]However, I would like to seean independent review of the PGC's future management plans in ref. to the pheasant, grouse/ small game program as well as theirdeer management programs, etc. before they get their increase. I say that because of the many years of poor management that drove us to this sad state of affairs.[/align][/align][/align][/align]

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I heard the pheasant program is going to be scrapped with or without an increase.

DougE....some very good points. I can't say I totally agree with you but I do on alot of things. The premise of my opinion was based on the timber economy. There are no species I'm aware of that will germinate and grow to maturity under a shaded over canopy that the timber industryis interested in. The reason I said that reverting back to pole timber in 25 years is the whole idea is because we are renewing the resource and providing for wildlife, and not just deer.
We must support the increase in license fees. If the GC falls we will be in dire straights as hunters. Who will the gamelands default to? I predict big shopping malls and industrial parks, maybe resorts (golf).