RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

First of all,there are many trees that are shade tolerant and will grow under a mature canopy if the deer don't impact them.We have exclosures under a mature canopy that proves this to be true.The regeneration will not be as prevelant as it would if more light was let in.I NEVER SAID LIGHT WAS NOT AN IMPORTANT FACTOR.Hobblebush is a good browse species that is shade tolerant.I haven't seen a hobblebush since 1980 and now they're starting to slowly show up in exclosures.That was a very common and important browse species during the middle part of this century.Unfortunately,a herd that was too big for the habitat ate it all.

In the northern tier the habitat is extremely stressed.There is no understory in huge expanses of forest.As a result,when you cut an area,the deer flock to that cut and consume all the new growth because there isn't sufficient food in the surrounding area.That's why DCNR is forced to fence in the area the cut.You have to realize that DCNR is mandated to cut no more than 70 acres at a time.This has nothing to do with the PGC since they don't manage the state forests.The state forests are managed for timber and that money goes in to the states general fund to benefit all Pennsylvanians.Since hunters only make up 8% of the population,you can't expect the remaining 92% of the state to lose money on timber revenues in order to support our hobby.There's a right way to cut timber and just clearcutting huge tracts of land is financially and ecologically irresponsible.Again,our state forests are managed for timber to benefit everyone in the state.they aren't managed for deer and never will be.When you cut too much timber,it will turn into pole timber in about 12-15 years and the carrying capacity will plummet once again and you'll be in the same situation we're in now.Once again,the point is that when an area is cut and you have too many deer and poor habitat surrounding the cut,it only takes a few deer to destroy any regeneration,even with ample amounts of light.I have all the proof you need to see up here.

Our forests are in very poor shape.Deer are not the only cause of that but it still doesn't change the fact that the carrying capacity is much lower.You mentioned the huge herd of the 60's and 70's.Those 40 years of overbrowsing has taken it's toll.People aren't pulling this stuff out of their rear.There have been so many studies to show this is the case that too argue otherwise is futile.The facts are so obvious.Back to the deer in 2G during the 60's and 70's.Those deer were hideous.It was uncommon to see a buck much bigger than a spike and many 1.5 year olds weren't even legal to shoot becaus they were so malnurished.

It took a long time of mismanaging the deer to get us in the position we're in now.This isn't going to change overnight but there has been progress.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

DougE, being rational and having facts aren't going to change these people's minds. They want to see a deer behind every tree and believe it is thier right because they buy a license to always fill thier tags. You would be lead to believe deer are the only animal in the forest.
IMHO the Game and Fish & Boat both deserve no increases what so ever until they can prove that the monies will be properly used insted of just flushing it down the toilet every year.
What is it if not an increase when for all intents and purposes the pheasant program is scrapped ? Where did the monies go that where allocated for the program in the past? How about the lack of enforcement when it comes to poaching? Some areas of the state it seems almost to be a regular poaching season. The dumping of garbage on SGL with impunity in some places etc etc. One could go on and on with what the agency fails to do on a regular basis year in and year out. Gawd ,wouldn't even want to start on the Fish & Boat.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

duck,where is tannerville and do you hunt in that area?

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

The argument always was that the timber interests wanted the deer exterminated because they were gobbling up their valuable cash crop. My opinion is based on that premise. Hardwood species do not germinate and grow as an understory in a mature forest. The best way to regenerate a mature hardwood forest is clearcutting. The plant species that grow in this condition are tremendous. There is so much browse that deer simply cannot make a dent, provided their numbers are kept reasonable. Of course the clearcut will revert back to pole timber in 25 years, but that is the whole idea. Selective cutting is what makes the problem we have today. Not enough of an area is cut first of all (70 acres). Then, many trees are left, which cuts precious sunlight which is the main ingredient in the equation. These trees end up as blowdowns shortly afterward because they were accustomed to sharing the windload with the rest of the forest. There is no sense in it. As a benefit in clearcutting, as areas are clearcut and attract the deer, the shade loving species can grow in the mature areas without being eaten. The problem is that the tree hugging, all or nothing mentality is actually very bad for the forest. I have never wanted a deer behind every tree. I have always said that I feel there ARE too many deer. Not that there areALOT of deer, but too many for the mishandled, mismanaged, poor habitat in this state to properly support. When forests began to be manged with thier aestheticvalue as a factor, we began this downward spiral to what we face today. The entire Northern tier needs leveled. The longer we wait, the worse it will get.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

I agree with an increase in licensing fees, but at the same time people who use public hunting lands for other activities shoul have to pay something. I don't have a plan for it , but we shouldn't have to foot the whole bill.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

I believe that the cost increase is necessary!! Will it be used effectively, that's another thread..........

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

Yeah, sure....nice jugs.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

Why is the whole idea to get the forest to the pole timber stage?The dd goal drops to 5 dpsm in pole timber.Once again,the PGC only has control of the game lands.Around here,they do a decent job of cutting.I think they should probably cut a little more but they do rotate cuts every ten years and they do alot of edge cutting.Most of the problems are on private land where the PGC has no control and on state forest lands where they have no control.Most of the private land I see has been cut out of greed and high graded.they took all the good mast producing seed treesleaving nothing for the future.As a result,invasive species that provide verylimited benefit to the deer have taken over.I belong to a lease that has nothing but beech and black birch growing do to this reason.Theturkey hunting is still decent but there's not many deer.You can't blame it on the hunters either because doe aren't aloud to be shot on the property,which I disagree with.The state forests are a whole different probem.Once again,the PGC doesn't control them.Most of the habitat in this part of Moshannon state forest and other state forests where I visited are terrible.On top of that,DCNR is regulated to only cutting 70 acres at atime.When you havepoor habitat and then cut 70 acres,it only takes a small number of deer to destroy any regeneration.that's why they fence in almost every cut.This land is managed for timber not deer and it's owned by the state of Pa.The funds to purchase these lands did not come from lisence sales or Pittman-Robertson monies.Therefore,there is nothing the PGC can do about the way this timber is managed.

Clearcutting is not the best way to get the habitat back.Today,themost successful regeneration of oaks is gained by doing a shelterwood cut.They go in and cut just enough toopen the canopyto get some advanced regeneration.then,over the years,theygo in and cut a little more at a time.You have to leave seed trees.If you go in and clearcut,you'll most likely end up with a bunch of non-preffered browse species.The entire state of Pa was cleacut in the early 20th century and it regenerated like crazy.One of the primary reason that 40% of Pa in covered in oak/hickory forests is because of all the wildfires.These fires kept the invasive thin barked species at bay,allowing the thicker barked species like oak to survive.Over the past 70 years or so,we've been suppressing the forest fires.As a result,Pa and most of the east coast is quickly being taken over by various maples,birch and beech in many areas.The conditions are far diferent today that they were at the turn of the century.So why don't they do controlled burns?Well,Pa has very strict liability laws concerning burns.The person who lights the match is both civilly and criminaly responsible if that fire gets out of hand.If you worked for DCNR or the PGC,would you want to be the guy lighting it?Until these laws are changed,there's not much we can do about it.That's also no fault of the PGC.Also,I hate to repeat myself but there are many,many species that are shade tolerant and will grow under a mature canopy.Most species will grow better in sunlight but there should still be a mid level canopy.Most species grow slower in the shade and it gives the deer time to devour it and never grow out of their reach.Laurel is shade tolerant.Why does it grow under a mature canopy?The answer is,deer usually leave it alone unless they're extremely stressed.Around here it's not uncommon to see a browse line on the laurel which is a very bad sign.

This is a complex issue and no the deer didn't do all the damage all by themselves.It's a combination of things.However,the forests are much different today than they were 50-60 years ago.Because of this,the carrying capacity is lower and it takes less deer to impact the habitat.None of this is the fault of the PGC except for letting the herd get out of control for the past 40 years or so.If they didn't bow to political pressure over the years,we wouldn't need to reduce the herd as much today.We're paying for the sins of the past and so are the deer and the rest of the wildlife that depend on a healthy forest.

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

I know I'll eventually be paying for the license increase because the only other option is to quit hunting and the PGCknows theyhave a captive audiance.[/align][/align]However, I would like to seean independent review of the PGC's future management plans in ref. to the pheasant, grouse/ small game program as well as theirdeer management programs, etc. before they get their increase. I say that because of the many years of poor management that drove us to this sad state of affairs.[/align][/align][/align][/align]

RE: GOOD NEWS PA. HUNTERS.
 

I heard the pheasant program is going to be scrapped with or without an increase.

DougE....some very good points. I can't say I totally agree with you but I do on alot of things. The premise of my opinion was based on the timber economy. There are no species I'm aware of that will germinate and grow to maturity under a shaded over canopy that the timber industryis interested in. The reason I said that reverting back to pole timber in 25 years is the whole idea is because we are renewing the resource and providing for wildlife, and not just deer.
We must support the increase in license fees. If the GC falls we will be in dire straights as hunters. Who will the gamelands default to? I predict big shopping malls and industrial parks, maybe resorts (golf).