Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Any thoughts out there on the financial mess the PGC is in, and the ir proposal to raise license fees? I hear there are some entanglements concerning this, and the PGC could be in jeaprody of being disbanded if revenues are not met. What's the outlook, and possible consequences?

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

The DCNR is loveing this they know that they will take over when the PGC goes down the tubes, at that time they take the land that the hunters paid for and do what they want with it, and they can finish their goal of 0 to 5 DPSM. then they will have room for their bird watchers,treehuggers,day hikers. Their plan has no room for hunters.

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Here's my opinion,there's people and groups who want the PGC to fail so they can be free to push their own deer management practices.Groups like the bird watchers,DCNR,and others are licking their chops.Alt and Ben Moyer are two that sure aren't helping the PGC's cause with the crap that put out in public.These guys aren't good for the hunting community.

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I think a fee is needed, the flower sniffers are not a group to take lite, they're sticking their noses in this for a reason!!!!!

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Why would they want no hunters? Don't hunters bring a alot of money into the state and the outdoors?

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

The PGC told the House Game and Fisheries Committee back in '98 or '99 when they last applied for and were granteda license increase, that said increase would last about5to 7 years and then the reserve fund would have to be tapped into. That time has come and gone.

Several months ago HG&FC chairman Bruce Smith claimed he was "blind sided" by the PGC's testimony that a license increase was needed. No idea why he was blind sided, since he was chairman when they last asked for an increase and told him it would need another increase in the next5to 7 years. Maybe he and the rest of the legislators were too busy working on their own pay increases and forgot about the game commission?

Now the Houseclaims there are too many questions concerning deer management to grant the needed license increase. Not sure what perceptions ofdeer management has to do with running the agency. Sounds to me like they're using the fuss about "no deer" to curry favor with those constituents who have complained,at the expense of granting the needed license increase.

Personnel costshave risen due to state employee contracts that the game commission has no control over; insurance costs have risen; the cost of vehicles, equipment, materialsand gasoline keepsincreasing.

DCNR secretary DeBerawhatis keeps saying they have no interest in a merger, so does Fast Eddie. Don' t knowif I believe them or not, but nothing has emerged from the adminstration to indicate they're lying.

All the other things I see mentioned here sound more like theignorant rantings of those that don't have a clue. Sorry.

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

DCNR oversees the managemaent of hundreds of thousands of acres of State Forest and State Parks, among other things. Timbering has become a cash cow for them, as lots of the forested areas under their control have matured. Lots of these areas are being fenced in so the deer which are left, cannot browse on the young shoots as they regenerate, or so they claim. Many feel that the DCNR has little or no interest in maintaining a deer herd of huntable size due to the opinion that they are only interested (DCNR) in protecting the regenerated timber for future harvest. Hence, the realization that the PGC, if lost due to monetary difficuties wre disbanded, the seemingly logical choice to absorb their programs (or eliminate them) would fall to the DCNR. It' starting to scare some of us.

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Everything you stated in your post I agree with except your last sentence. THAT was ignorant !!!!!

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Fire all them DCNR,PGC the whole bunch of them and throw fast eddie to the bears. And start over.None of them are worth the space thay take up As far as a increase.No problem but lets have a watchdog group of hunters looking over their shoulders with a microscope. Let start with 20.00 doe tags

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

It's funny how some claim hunting is not part of DCNR's plan but yet DCNR needs hunters to maintain lower deer numbers.

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

I agree Denny's last sentence was ignorate, however why would fast Eddie and the others come out and say they're for a merger during their first term, it would be political suicide as Rendell's hopes for re election do partly sit on these issues???? All you have to do is look at the signs and the direction things are going, PGC can't catch a break..




Also T, remember what beating Debirni took for making threats on other ways of reducing the deer Herd?? Also, watch out for birth control in the future!!!


This to some will seem far fetched, but I'd also keep an eye on the "Wild lands Project" and PA being in that plan!!!! Scary stuff IMO.

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

"Everything you stated in your post I agree with except your last sentence. THAT was ignorant !!!!!"

Contrary to the popular adage,ignorance of the truth is seldom ever blissful,or particularly useful. Ignorance is in fact,harmful and should not be welcomed, toleratednor encouraged. Ifmy stating the obvious casts me as behaving ignorantly in someone else's eyes, so be it.

;)

Conversations on internet boards have revolved around these conspiracy theories for years. Some havepromoted theircareers based on spreadingsuch rumors and a few orgs have attempted to parlaysuch fearsinto increased numbers and agreater image of self-importance than they deserve. They know full-well who they are and will doubtless rise to the occasionby identifying themselvesand crying foul.

[8D]

Rather than swallow suchfoolishness without question, it would better serve all of us to find out what is real and what is merely the product of someone else's vivid imagination, that serves their agenda more than it does the best interests of hunters, the wildlifeorour environment in general.

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

So I should have no problem with Audobon, Sierra club, and notorious anti gunners such as Rendell's boys over at the DCNR sticking their noses into Deer management???

I have a right to question their motives and I always will!!

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

You certainly do have the right to question their motives. Do you question the motives of the USP? I do, and I think I have that right as well. Now, given the past history of all of these organizations, I think I trust the USP less than any of the above. By the way, who are Rendell's boys at the DCNR? If you know something, don't be shy. Name names.

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Denny F.---In regard to your latest self-inspired rant on this subject, my former response to you still stands, and remains unchanged..............

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

I will add that I agree about the USP as well, I didn't mean to leave that out!!!;)



Where do I begin, how about Debirni's comments about releasing cougers and wolves if we can't get it done!!The pa Wildsfiasco, well you might just say I tookit out of context.

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Wasn't Debardinis but Merlin Benner. It was a tongue in cheek comment that everyone knows very well would never go over from a social point of view. Fully taken out of context over & over & over.....

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

My bad!! thanx for the correction.

You probably can't but can anyone dig up that old quote???

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

First off don't apologize four sox.It was indeed debonkers who made that statement.Maybe others did as well but his was high profile and he had to back peddle quick with that one.But that's just the liberal Philly coming out of him.Anybody wants to know what he's about do a search on him.Nuff said
I'm not going to sit here and name the people from the DCNR who have made anti hunting statements this past year.If you guys are hunters I'm sure you saw the quotes.
Denny,Denny,Denny.That statement you made in your infamous last sentence brings me to mind of "the pot calling the kettle black"
You are very opinionated in here so why can't others give their opinions?
Could it be they disagree with you?
People like ALT,Ben Moyer,audobon, and some others are no friends of the PA hunter.And the DCNR doesn't get a high grade either right now.

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

I did a search on him, all I can say is WOW!!! I just don't see how some so called hunters can't see the obvious!!!

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

i agree w/ that

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:DYou know four sox,over the last several years I've seen so called hunters on different boards defend people like Alt,debonkers,Moyer,audobon,and even Rendell.These same folks seldom speak good about their fellow hunters.Usually their comments are negative.As a longtime ethical hunter I find this odd at best.I'm proud to be of the hunting tradition in PA and most hunters I know are hard hunting ethical folks.The way some of these posters on the boards speak of their brethern you could swear they are antis.If they're not they sure are missing a good chance.
This isn't about anybody particular here but certain posters in general on different PA hunting boards.Things that make ya wanna go hmmmm.
Here's an example.The folks living and hunting in 2G have been getting bashed by so called fellow hunters for a few years now.People have been saying the deer have been overharvested in 2G yet they were called whiners,complainers,poor hunters etc.The harvest numbers that just came out rest their case.A 25% drop in the buck kill over last year.And last year was down from previous years.Yeah I know,it's the weather,5% reduction in hunters etc.Then these people twist words and claim hunters are saying there's no deer.I never yet saw anybody claim there were no deer.Few deer yes.
To answer TH's question about who Rendell's boys are.Debonkers is the kingpin and the people he appointed under him.Like the yahoo at the wild's meeting in Potter county who said hunting is no longer a recreation.
I know taken out of context right?Just like debonkers taken out of context.Old Eddie was on the damage control wagon quick after those two spoke.
Debonkers and Rendell are both left wing liberals and come from the same mold as Hillary Clinton and others like her.To trust them would be a mistake.Wolves in sheep's clothing you could say.
Let's not foget what hunters do for conservation and the economy.Not to mention supporting the PGC and giving to the Pitt-Rob fund.
I like hunters.:D

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Nice post, Germain---- Lots of thought and tact put into it. Congrats.....

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Yep, let's not forget what us hunters have done for conservation for decades past by allowing a higher than carrying capacity deer herd. That did conservation wonders......

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Germain,I don't have alot of faith in Debonkers myself.However,I know the district forester very well that manages the state forests where you hunt.The guy is a hunter and he definately doesn't want to kill all or even most of the deer.They planned on expanding dmap in that area two years ago but held off because they started to see some promising regeneration.High harvests certainly helped to reduce the herd in that area but so did the poor habitat and winters of 2003 and 2004.We have less deer around here now but the habitat is in poor shape.Less deer is something we'll have to live with for a while.I still don't think the deer situation isas bad as many claim.I had no trouble finding deer to kill in Parker dam state park and I had no trouble finding one to kill in Sinnemahoning,which is right next to southern Potter.As a matter of fact,I saw more deer in the one day I hunted that area than I've seen in quite some time.The habitat is absolutely pitiful in that area.I hunted a place that I knew the logged in 2001 and had no trouble finding deer.The habitat is so poor up there that the deer were concentratedin areas that had some browse.It won't last long though.The deer had the regeneration pretty much destroyed except forsome black birch that's still hanging on.

We had less pressure this year and a 48% reduction in allocations.I'm seing way more sign and deer post season thanI have in a few years at this time of year.Recruitment will be up because of the mild winter and good mast crop.Add this all together and you'll be seeing alot more deer in the next couple of years.It's not the end of the world and the last thing we should be doing in this area is aking for more deer until the habitat can handle more.

Rep's Hanna and Surra are having some sort of hearing on the deer situation todayjust up the street frommy office.I'll report what they say but I imagine it's just more of the same politics.They want to hand cuff the PGC and keep them from getting a fee increase until the hunters get what they ask for at the expense of the habitat.They also want the PGC to cover their own legal expenses.Yep,they're truly friends of the sportsman.I just wish public comments were allowed.

It used to bother me as well when hunters from across the state would chastise the hunters of 2G who kept saying the herd was too low.At this point,I'm starting to get sick of the hunters that are crying to their legislators for more deer and sueing the PGC.These guys really need to get out and learn how the deer and the habitat or lack there of are interekated.

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Good post Doug.

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Doug, nice post, but no one is saying all foresters are bad its the ones at the top that make my skin crawl a little My opinion.



T, are we really working together though??? Us and the DCNR???

Can they do anything a little different as far as forestry practices? Look at an SGL compared to a state forest! I was looking under some websites from groups like Seirra and Audobon and no doubt they want the forests managed for old growth. I never heard of these groups until this administration came to power!!

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Good point T_in_PA3


Good post DougE

It's no different here in NY. I have said it here many times, the hunters that cry the most know nothing about what the high numbers of deer in the past have done to their winter feed. If we have a few bad winters in a row, it willall be allover but the crying. It seems that not many truely care about the deer, It's how many can I kill and how manybucks can I shoot.

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

No fan of either Rendell or DeBerawhatis myself. The only thing that has kept them "in line", is the political pressure from hunters and firearms owners here in PA. The DCNR chief's comments to the PGC board last year, are linked here. He addressed the cougars/wolves issue and a few other items:

http://www.dep.state.pa.us/newsletter/default.asp?NewsletterArticleID=9460&SubjectID=

As for disgruntled hunters seeking relief from the legislature, this is precisely why Hanna, Surra, Godshall et al, think they have a free hand now indelivering ultimatumsto the game commission. Both in terms of micro-managing deer management from their seatsin the House, to the games they're playing with a hunting license increase.

Only comment I have about areas with lower numbers of deer now is, who actually thinned these areas of deer: The deer management decisions of the game commission by issuing lots ofdoe tags...or the people that actually bought and used those tags when deer numbers were high?

I'd hate to think that the same people that once happily killed multiple deer per year in these areas, are now the same people that are grumbling about "no deer". You may have not seen anyone claim there are no deer in some areas, I have.Not onlyon the internet, but also in the local paper and face to face at sportsmen's club meetings.

I'll also take issue with the comments about DCNR's PA Wilds presentation in Coudersport, where Kremapsky was quoted as saying he wasn't there to talk about hunting. Plain and simple, he wasn't there to talk about hunting, he was there to toutDCNR's plan to bring non-hunting related tourism to the north central. People that hunt already know how to find their way toPotter County and the north central in general.

:)

Perhaps his choice of words could've been more thoughtful, although I suspect he had been frazzled a bit by a few in the audience, when he chose those words. I had a brief conversation with him a few weeks ago on that subject and his reply more or less confirmedmy suspicion, that he'd been a bit frustrated by one individual in particular,when he said that.

Some may not like hearing what Moyer has to say, but in my opinion he is usually dead-on when it comes to deer,deer hunting and the environment as a whole.

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Four sox.I also have serious reservations about the guys running DCNR or anyone else appointed by Rendell for that matter.The point is,our forests are in very bad shape in many areas for a variety of reasons.It's true that the deer didn't do all of the damage all by themselves.However,at this point it takes very few deer to retard any regeneration when the forests are in this bad of shape.Furthermore,forests in this condition,with little preffered browse can't support alot of deer,especially during a bad winter,let alone two in a row.They devistate the habitat under these conditions and suffer from low recruitment.That's a big reason we're seeing alot less deer today.We didn't shoot them all and we have to fix the habitat so this won't continue to happen.

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

So do you guys think that we are heading in the right direction??? You know with hunters quitting, youths losing interest, the current head honchos taunting kill more, kill more. Are these policies the only answer?? Is there anything else that can be done??

I'm just wandering, Not saying I have the answers. I predict the PGC will not last very long, then What??


I usually hunt private land, but that doesn't mean squat!!

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Lots of questions. I will take a stab at a few of them. Are we heading in the right direction? I think so, but that is a very unpopular position on message boards. I like the idea of letting the button bucks and spikes grow another year. Not sure why some can't tell the difference between a button buck and a mature doe. Herd reduction? It was necessary in some areas. Overbrowsing by deer has been a problem for many years.
I don't think many hunters are quitting. Some guys who weren't really into it gave up because it is harder now. I can't speak for others. I would probably hunt if deer were extinct and I had to use an atlatl or whatever those things are. Not everyone is as crazy as I am.
I don't know how else to correct the problems caused by too many deer, other than to reduce the population for awhile and let the forests recover.

I hope you are wrong about the game commission. What do you think will take its place? DCNR? The politicians in the legislature? God help us if the politicians take over deer management. If the DCNR takes over, us hunters have nobody to blame but ourselves.

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Your last question, the answer would suck either way!!!

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I think you have the right slant on the fewer numbers of hunters in the woods in recent years, and would like to share some of my observations on this. For one thing, the huntung population as a whole is aging. Lots of us are reaching or at Social Security age. Many incur health problems as they grow older. This changes the way we have to hunt. When I was a younger man, there were no hillsides too steep or tangled. There was no distance that was too far. The days weren't long enough. I pulled deer out of places that today, I wouldn't venture near. Sad, but true, it happens to ALL of us, sooner or later, and we have learned or will learn to cope as best we can with our abilities or disabilities. The tjought of not being able to be "out there" somewhere on the first day of whatever season is a scary thing.
Younger people have lost interest for a number of reasons, in my mind. Urban sprawl has, and is taking over lots of property that used to be huntable ground. I used to get home from school in the afternoon, change into hunting clothes, grab a gun and be gone out the back door in a flash. Those old hunting areas of mine are housing developments now. You can't fire a BB gun there.
Lack of game causes lack of interest. Rabbits are nowhere near as plentiful as they used to be. Ringnecks are hard to come by, generally. There are still some squirrels to shoot at. Kids can have a hard time trying to find someone to take them hunting. Lots of pressure from the "anti's" about hunting, and the horrors of gun ownership. These kids are being pushed harder and harder to do better and better,quicker and faster. They don't know how to relax and enjoy the outdoors. Thankfully, I never had to endure the slam-ram fast paced enviornment they do. Cell phones---camera phones--text messaging--instant and constant communication--computers--e-mail--instant gratification-- and you wonder why they don't have the patience to sit quietly in the woods and wait for a deer or turkey to come along? It's not their fault--it's just how they are being raised to contend with and participate in the lifestyle that is today.
I don't know how they contened with the warp-speed daily goings-on. I do understand that every youngster that you see out in the woods with that wide-eyed look of wonderment and anticipation is a treasure. I hope they spread the word to their friends. I hope someone will be available to take them to hunter's ed. classes. I hope.

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I think we did lose the casual one day a year guys, but deer hunting is still huge where I'm from. I meet people almost every day and end up talking deer hunting with them. It amazes me how much people are into it, almost obsessed like me.

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Do you ever have anything positive to say about hunters T?:D

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Doug,there's a reservoir near us surrounded by water company land and state forest.In the beginning of HR this area was estimated at 38 DPSM.Obviously these numbers have been reduced.The forest here always had poor regen in a mixture of hemlocks,softwoods,and hardwoods.There are some old stripped mine land on the edge.However where the forest opens up at the reservoir there is incredible white oak regen.The trees are so thick it's ashame they can't be thinned out.Just 25 yards in under the thick canopy and there's barely any regen.Hopefully I can get back there this year for some pics.If you want to take a hike some time PM me for directions.
I'm not one of the people that want a deer behind every tree.Personally I think the hunting got fun when the numbers approached 20 DPSM.
As for the people in 2G complaining some of the problems come from Alt and his promises and a lack of communication.The goals started out at 15 DPSM but when places like Tioga state forest hit 8 and still Dmaps were being handed out it got to some folks.I wouldn't waste my time hunting where the numbers are that low and I doubt most others would either.
I'm seeing regen but it's mostly beech,cherry,and maple.There's plenty of food in our area which is a mixture of woodlots,farms,and strippings yet the herd was drastically reduced.I witnessed the overharvesting from the hunters themselves.So I agree with a previous poster who said hunters are the ones to make that decision.
I don't doubt your local forester is responsible and cares about deer hunting.It's Rendell and the left wing liberals he appointed that I don't trust.
Denny,I agree the topic in Potter county wasn't about deer hunting and the speaker had a right to be frustrated.But the quote was "deer hunting is no longer a recreation"That wasn't taken out of context it was the true hope/and or feeling of the liberals running the DCNR.And it's a dangerous situation if they ever take over the PGC.Look no farther then NJ and their bear hunting fiasco.Looks doubtful that hunt will take place next year because the main proponent for that hunt got fired.To trust the DCNR is a mistake.

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A lot of the best people I know are hunters. :) Hunters do a lot of good things but we also shoot ourselves in the foot in front of the general non-hunting public too. Which do you think they easily remember ?

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I agree with that statement T.But we have to be careful and not take the stand of always being defensive and apologetic for hunting.I think sometimes we tend to do that.
Overall we have done alot more good then the few times we've made mistakes or said the wrong things.

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germain,you say there's plenty of food but then you say most of the regneration is beech,cherry and maple.Maple is a preffered browse species but the other two are not.What you expect the deer to eat during the winter?The bottom line is,the herd crashedaround here after the winters of 2003 and 2004 because there wasn't enough browse.The habitat is terrible around here and having 38 dpsm is the reason we're in this situation.

I agree that regeneration isn't going to be the same under a close canopy as it is where it can get alot of light.That's all part of forest succession though.As the forest matures,the carrying capacity is greatly decreased for many years until it slowly increases a little once mast begins to be produced.unfortunatly,if all you have it beech,maple and cherry,mast is very limited and the carrying capacity would be much lower.I didn't want to believe it myself Rich but we had way too many deer for too long and now we'll have to live with alot less for quite a while.