RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

WOW why didnt you help feed them ??????? Thats one of the problems .Hunters to cheap to plani food plots or do anything past buying a license. I know Momma needs a new dress or vacation.I say to my wife ,tough I am spending the money to help the deer.She dont like it she can leave. i will quit hunting if it only means kill and dont put back.I am disabled and this past year I planted 1 acre myself on my knees and never shot a deer,because the population is down. Other years in the past I spent over 1000 dollars feeding them over winter and took the food out to them on a sled and pulled it along on my knees in the snow.that the dedication we need from both hunters and the PGC

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Some have missed the point of HR: If deer numbersare keptin balance with their habitat(available naturalfood sources) in the first place, they'll seldom need to be artificially fed, even during severe weather conditions.

Just asa farmer cannot long sustain a herd of cattle on insufficient pasture or with insufficient hay production without breaking himself financially, a deer herd cannot exist indefinitely at numbers beyond insufficient browse.

The farmer will eventuallybe forced to sell-off some of his cattle; deer will justeventually eat themselves out of "house and home" if allowed to grow to too great a number for their habitat. Or in many cases, cause problems by seeking food elsewhere at the expense of their human neighbors.

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Why didn't I feed them?Well first of all,we have several hundred thousand acres of overbrowsed state forests to deal with.How would I get to them?Second,you shouldn't have to feed them.There habitat and the herd should be balanced so that they can survive a hard winter.Third,I run a business and the costs of doing business and feeding my family take presedence over feeding the deer in an overbrowsed enviroment.

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Doug,you misunderstood my post which is my fault because I didn't explain very well.
First off I'm not saying there's alot of food in 2G.I'm saying the hunters who are reporting less deer are correct and not just whiners like some stated.
Here's where I confused you.I was using two different places in my last post.One area is where I do most of my deer hunting now.That's in 2E on private land open to hunting which is a mixture of farms,woodlots,old strippings,and the beginning of the big woods.This is where I said the food supply is good.This also is an area that has seen drastic cuts in the deer population via hunting.In the beginning it was rated at 38DPSM .
Then there's the places in 2G where I hunt bear,turkey,and grouse.This is what I was talking about when I said the regen I'm seeing is mostly beech,cherry,and maple.In most of these places the deer numbers are low.I was hunting Parker dam the first year of the bonus tags.We saw over twenty deer that day and I'll tell ya what,those guys in there cleaned house.I can see where you thought I was contradicting myself by saying there was plenty of food yet not good regen in oaks.Two different areas-my mistake.
I think where you and RSB disagree with me is how places like 2G arrived at the low deer numbers.I feel herd reduction was the main culprit where it seems you guys think poor habitat and harsh winters are the main reason.It's too ironic that the numbers dropped after a few years of herd reduction.Man those first two years it sounded like a war!Basically it seems where hunters have the access the deer have been hammered.Our local paper just had an article about this.
In places like treasure lake and others that don't have the hunting pressure aren't the deer numbers still high?I know greenwood road still has good numbers but then again it's all posted.
I won't say the lack of mast crops,bad winters and coyotes aren't a factor.But I've seen worse winters then this and never witnessed a drop in the populations like we're having now.
Then there's the state forests in the southern counties like Perry.The tusc st forest has some very low deer populations yet the winters aren't near as bad as 2G.Herd reduction took those numbers that low.I was grouse hunting in there two years ago in the second season.Very little deer sign yet acorns left over everywhere.The mast was there but there weren't enough deer to eat it.

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Doug we will never balance the deer with the habitate as long as all the development continues. private land is developed ,deer pushed to public land and the problem becomes a steam roller. In the future with all the pressure if we dont generate food the deer herd will have to be so low it wont be worth hunting. Development must be stopped and all gamelands available must be put in to agriculture.I get so sick of the attitude the deer must be lowered when the food source can be expanded.One reason I am leaving Pa. I lived and hunted in 5 states and Pa PGC is the worst I seen as far as working with the hunters. They act like they are the only answer and everyone else is stupid.And they dont even hunt public lands.
We can learn from other states ,,the earth dont stop at our borders, Example When I bought my land in South Texas. I had to many deer .But in that region I was only allowed 2 does. I called the GC.A warden cameto visit .He said yes i can see your herd is to big,He spent the wholeday with me. Conclusion the law says 2 doe in this area.But you own the land and it is behind a gate ,not fenced.No land owner /hunter will over kill his herd or their hunting land would be useless. We aint lookin shoot what you think needs to be taken

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Cardeer,you and I live in two different worlds.You live in a more urban enviroment and I have no doubt what you say about development is true.I live in Rural Clearfield county.I'm surrounded by thousnads of acres of moshannon state forest.The habitat is terrible and there was far too many deer for the habitat to support.I can't possibly feed all the deer under these conditions.

Germain,I agree 100% that we killed alot of those deer and hunters helped reduce the herd.However,I saw the dead deer with my own twoeyes after2004.Two back to back brutal winters with no mast crop devistated therecruitment rates in this area and killed alot of deer.

I'm very familiar with parker dam.In fact I killed a doe off of tyler road on the first day of archery this year.Deer numbers are down there but they've been downbefore herd reductions.You're correct about the beech and other junk growing in that area.Anything of value is out of the reach of the deer.In the late 80's and early 90's,I'm sure that place had a ton of deer from that tornado.That growth is 20 years old now and out of the deers reach.It simply can't support the deer it did 15 years ago.Because the deer had alot of cover after that tornado,they overpopulated the area and destroyed the woods around the blowdowns.That's some of the most pathetic habitat in the state,unless you like ferns.

I see where you're coming from but I have no guilt shooting doe in that area.The numbers will go up again but unless there's browse,we'll go through this cycle again,with or without high antlerless allocations.

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Doug,is the regen you're seeing in the Mosh?

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Doug, you bring up very good points, almost convincing I really think that a little more time will tell, finally there was a better crop this year in the 2g area along with a not so bad winter. I say another season or two and maybe we'll know better the deal with the current herd there!!As of now I believe the current WMUs' are too large and mixed with types of habitat.


Doug by the way, totally off the topic, but being you know the parker dam area, do you at all go to SGL 93, and if so have any grouse flushes???


Again don't mean to digress, just thought I'd ask while thinking of it!!

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Germain,I am seeing excellent regeneration on Moshannon state forest but most of it is near the boyscout camparound Penfield.I was up there in feb and the oakregeneration looked like mountain laurel and the stump sprouts on the stumps cut two years ago where all about 5ft tall.That area got hammered when HR started and the regen is unreal.What's interesting is that when the did a shelter wood cut about 5-6 years ago,there isn't a stump sprout to be found in that area.I don't have a figure for the deer density at that time but we hunted that areaduring the first year of AR and my buddy hadthree groups of deer come by him by 10:00 am and they totaled over 50 deer.They weren't the same deer either because they all came from the same direction.Last yearI spent two months in that area scouting and hunting for turkeys and saw one der the whole time and very little sign.I'd like to show you some of these areaswhen you come back up.

Four sox,I'm veryfamiliar with SGL 93.I don't hunt that arealike I used to because of all the ticks but yes,there's still grouse and alot of deer.If you go in deep near the beaver dams around winterburn,there's plenty of deer.I actually just leased 500 acres with a bunch of guys that borders the Sabula side of SGL 93.

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

very good comments.you are right. there is forum in pa called, huntingpa.it is loaded with people who are in favor of the way our hunting is going here in pa..they even have wco on there defending policy.its a forum that when a person from 2g as you say comments, they gang up on them and try to destroy their comments. most i know dont view this forum anymore. we are very lucky to be on this forum as most on here are decent people. i cant say same for the ones on that other site.

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

I was thrown off that other site for saying the PGC is being pimped by the timber companies and their money.Dont need them self righteous money snobs over there.

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Simply not true, cardeer. If being critical of the PGC would get you kicked off huntingpa, half of those who post would be terminated. You got kicked off for other reasons, perhaps being abusive to other members? You lost some credibility there.
Anyone who cares to check it out can do so. Several of the message threads have plenty of posts that are anti PGC. Those who believe cardeer on this one should check out the General Hunting, Big Game, and AR/HR message categories. You will see that I am telling the truth.

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Sproulman,I'm certainly in favor of the way things are going and I hunt and live in 2G.I'm seeing less deer but I still have no problems or guilt filling my freezer every year.The habitat was trashed and needed to recover.I'm willing to live with less deer in order to have better habitat.

Cardeer,if you're implying that the PGC is being paid off my timber companies,that's pure speculation without proof.Who whould they pay off?Now if you're saying DCNR did what ever was politically necessary to reduce the herd on their lands,you're correct.they put a moratorium on handing over any land purchases to the PGC until they more or less got their own way.You can read about that on their website so it's no big secret or conspiracy.

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

I'm sure that there's problems with the way things are being done by the GC but there's problems in every organization. I happen to agree with one of the responses on here earlier that we keep blaming the PGC on so many deer being killed but they are only allowed to buy a license just like us. Hunters are killing the deer...not the PGC. They have proven already that the number of deer being killed is directly related to the number of license they make available. That means "If we sell them they will kill them!"You can't keep buying license and killing deer and then turn around and tell the PGC it's your fault because you sold them. No...if your worried about deer numbers don't buy them! I've sat through some of the meetings discussed here and the people talking about the "Wlderness" plans are mainly looking into the future and trying to figure out what is going to happen when the hunter numbers decrease so much that there's not enough revenue to maintain the large tracts of land that hunters have been paying for for so many years. I don't think there's an easy answer but you can't bash the PGC on one hand and then cry that the DCNR is going to take over on the other.

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

I use to post on huntingpa, many moons ago, now I just view, too many people with "Internet Muscles" on there!!!!

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

If they bite ya foursox just bite em back.:D

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Been there done that, its the same crap from the same people!!!

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

I have been reading all of the articles in the magazines and hunting rags... I must say that they are correct. Having lived in PA since birth but having to travel to hunt quality deer most of my life has been a real problem to me. I hear the complaints but traveled around the state trying to verify this lack of deer. I was unable to find this issue true. I was able to locate deer in every area I went to. Westmoreland, Somerset, Potter, McKean, on and on... National forests, farms etc... Was there a density issue, yes.. but it wasn't to the extreme that I have been reading about..

The last two years have been the first time in years that I have seen new growth on my farm. Up to now, the deer have eaten everything including my shrubs.. Now, if I were to manage my cattle like that I would have the SPCA in my backyard...If I had a dog, starved that bad, another SPCA issue... Cattle live on so many per acre, deer are no different. Gary Alt did a great job with the bears in PA, what makes anyone think he would do any different with deer?? Additionally, on my trips I am always running into a PA hunter who does nothing but complain about how backwards PA's game management is... Alt was making progress, deer come back... They are active little buggers and once at managable levels, it could be regulated much easier.. Now, we are going to see the same thing happen...

We cut doe tags by what was it 50000?? That gives us somewhere in the 100,000 thousand extra deer..Half of which will be young bucks which will not make the antler restrictions and will be hungry as hell. Their bodies will not mature like normally fed deer and we will have young immature breeders. We are now creeping into the same area we were finally fixing...

The real thing I wish is that we could get some hunters to read about current practices and understand that we need to make sacrifcies to advance. It is not all about killing a deer. That seems to be the common problem.. Reduce the numbers greatly and regulate them. No one formula works perfectly everywhere, but given a chance we would see progress. The genetics here permit monsters like Ill, KY etc.. Yet we don't permit it and then we see each at the same camps.. Shame on us..

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

What is needed is an audit from outside the political circle. An accounting of ALL timber sales, license fees and fines then find out where the millions of dollars were pissed away. It's all politics with little emphasis on wildlife. Just money, money, money. Like social security on a smaller scale. And they wonder why there are fewer licenses aresold each year. There are still thousands of hunters in Pa. they just don't hunt in Pa. What pisses me off most are theUnited Bowhunters and Unified Sportsman's organizations kissing up to them just to get their agenda approved. BS[:@]

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

four soxs, i agree on huntingpa. forum. its wonder they have not been sued for using name of mr.slinsky without his permission.he said he did not want his name on the forum from what i read.members degraded him and made comments about him and his family. i have to say, moderator griz did pull the topic and i have to give him credit. i cant understand why that forum has so many people that are allowed to go after others like they do and make fun of them and degrade them when they offer opinion on the deer situation in wmu 2g.its ok in my book ,if a person makes a comment about a group or like game commission but when you put a persons REAL NAME on a forum, then membersgo after him or her, thats wrong. i am glad to be part of this forum and we dont even look at that other one.

RE: Pa. Game Commission Problems
 

Its laid back here, honest discussions from all point of views, no internet muscles!!! I agree about the personal attacks, that IMO shows no classthe way they do it behind a computer screen, like I said not all do it but a chosen few!!



One example, not too long ago Melody Z was making a post about something, not expressing any opinons, and man they hammered away.