1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

we are hoping the PGC listens to us hunters and make rule, 1 deer and your done here in 2G pa.also,too many doe have been killed in the 2G WMU area in pa.we cant lose all these hunters do to not seeing any deer.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

what part of 2g

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

I think I'd let the biologists decide how many deer need to be taken. If some hunters are taking 5, then the ones who aren't seeing anything must not be thte right areas...

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

well, i wish that was reason. are better hunters and spend more time in woods.they know where deer that are left are and when they clean out that area, they move on.others dont have time to scout every day and usually hunt where they have for years.i know where deer are and only saw 5 doe for 2 weeks of hunting in clinton county.others were in same spot as me,then miles without a hunter.most are doing more scouting than ever before do to lack of deer.even if it was 1 deer and you are done, many will still not even see a deer.i talked to many crews of 15 and they only saw 3 doe the first week..some saw none, no fawns also.its bad here in WMU 2G.i have been hunting and living here in clinton county years and never saw it so bad.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

And yet people blame the PGC, seems to me, hunters themselves are to blame.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

If deer density is so low in the area that you hunt that you feel it necessary, why not limit yourself to one deer? Us "alpha hunters" aren't to blame. We work hard for our deer but there aren't that many of us. There sure aren't enough to do the deed that was done in the northcentral part of the state, and it isn't the Game Commission killing all the deer. Instead of whining for a "one deer and done" policy, why not let the professionals who know what they are doing manage the deer herd?
For your information, here are the PAGC total deer harvest figures for the seven years before this one:
1998-377,489
1999-378,592
2000-301,379
2001-486,014
2002-517,529
2003-464,890
2004-409,320
Do you see a pattern? First of all, it is impossible for me to understand how anyone could possibly look at these figures and not conclude that we have reduced the population of deer. Second, when over four hundred thousand deer are killed, you can't possibly believe that us "alpha hunters" got even a large percentage of them. There simply aren't that many of us. Third, do you notice that the harvest is declining since 2002? It will keep declining until the harvest number is roughly equal to the deer production for a year, which should be enough to stabilize the population at a level the forests can support without damage.
Hunting has changed in Pennsylvania. It had to change because the deer were doing major damage to the forests. We are never going back to those huge herds of deer that were so easy to find. If you love hunting, you will keep doing it and will adapt to those changes. If you don't like hard hunting, you might as well quit buying a license. It isn't going to get a whole lot easier for you.
You do have a few options. One would be to find a better place to hunt. There are areas of the state that have too many deer and not enough hunters. Another option would be to quit hunting entirely. It wouldn't me my choice, but it might be yours.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

Mr. Rob/Pa Bowyer. The PGC are in charge of the management of the deer. Not the public. I agree with most of the people on this board that we as hunters need to take responsibility before we pull the trigger, however we have beenMISINFORMED by our lovely PGC. They continue to still saythere are to many deer when in a lot of areas there are not. They have done nothing to remedy this problem. They haven't changed WMU's to reflect that. They haven't separated privateland from public. I don't want to here that they lowered the doe tag allocation because that his a bunch of ****. There are still to many tags given and still to long of a season. They have done one fly over to see how manydeer there were. That was such a small areaCOMPARED to the rest of the state.

Mr. patrkyhntr. Iunderstand where you are coming from but don't you see a problem with the numbers you posted. They arean estimate and nothing more than that. Theyhonestly don't know how many deer are in the state and how many deer have been harvested. I really don't see how theycan implement a deer managementprogram withoutknowing this information. And they continue to say that next year we will have the same seasons. WTF!!!!!

Now to the starter of this thread. I love your idea and Iam hoping for the same thing but don't hold your breath on that one. It isn't going to happen.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

I realize this can go both ways but what proof, evidence, scientific data do you have to support the aguement that a lot of areas do not have enough deer? How many deer can be supported? What data did you use to come up with that number?

Not being critical but just pointing out that making decisions based onpersonal perception of the number of deer in an area isn't good management.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

My evidence would have to be myself, family, friends, and a lot of other hunters especially from this board. We are not seeing any deer on the gamelands. This is in parts of 4C, 2G, 3D, 4D.that is just off the top of my head.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

whose to say those deer kill numbers are right or even close. i honestly believe the GC has nop clue on how many deer are taken each year especially if their main source of deer kills are from report cards or game processors. IMO they just put out a number they feel comfortable with depending on how the people are talkin. watch this year's deer kill will be slightly down from last year. when most people i have talked to have never seen it so bad.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

But what is not enough? What is too many?

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If these folks are shooting 5 deer in area 2G, then they are either using DMAP permits which are for private land, or doing it illegally. 2G doe permits were gone before non-residents, such as my group, could apply. So they were also gone before residents could go for a second one. That only leaves a few options:

- restricted to 1 buck and 1 doe
- add in DMAP
- illegal
- not done in 2G

2G had a HUGE cut in doe tags for this year, I expect another huge cut for next year. My group hunts in Potter Co and saw VERY FEW deer this year, one guy didn't see any, sign was signifigantly reduced and food was EVERYWHERE. That area can hold more deer and PGC seems to have figured that out and reduced doe tags, hopefully they will reduce it even more.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

Actually, sir, I do see a problem. It is that those who call themselves sportsmen in this state are too lazy to send in a postage free postcard and report their kills. Only forty percent of us send them in. This is inexcusable. And you have the gall to blame the Pa. Game Commission because their numbers aren't accurate? Give me a break, fella.
If you think those figures are not accurate, perhaps you can give me a source for some more accurate ones? Until "sportsmen" in this state begin to see that they are the problem and send in report cards on harvests we will have to base deer management on the estimates. If you have a better idea, show up in Harrisburg with it.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

How many deer do y'all PA boys consider enough ?
BTW , they call it an estimate for a reason , no state GC knows exactly how many deer they have . My region of Indiana has 30-45 deer per square mile as of the last estimate , and a state average of 15-20 , and I don't see deer every single time I go out . Your state also fields at least 3 times as many hunters as mine and had an estimated herd over twice as large as ours .

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First of all, I wasn't personally attacking you with my question. But since you want to make it personal, I could debate with you all day! Do you work for the PGC or do you have a relative that works for them? I could think of a better way to do it. Have mandatory check stations like almost every other state in the country does. If hunters don't want to send there cards them force the issue another way. That is the way any other business would go about it, but what do I know I am just a lazy wannabe sportsman.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

lot were those d-map tags.they LEGALLY got 5 deer.cant say where they went in 2g or outside of 2g.i only heard comments like, they got 4 doe and a buck.most of this was last year on those 5 deer as those same ones only got like 3 deer this year.my point is, thats not fair to deer here in 2g and also to other hunters that are not in woods as often to harvest 3 deer or 5 deer each, let alone seeing 1 deer.you see my point.if the county was over populated with deer, i could see something like this.but in clinton county and 2g,there is no over population.my own opinion, i believe we are down to 2 deer per sq. mile .just what i have been seeing and what hunters are saying they see .personelly , i would like to see doe hunting stopped all together but i thought 1 deer and done would be fair and maybe stop hunter from shooting a doe,waiting for a buck.hope i am not offending anyone but we are in grave danger of losing the best sport that i have ever done.its very bad here in 2g and future does not look bright.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

Check in stations are an east coast, small state thing, mostly north east. Most states do not do this.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

I know some midwest states do it like Nebraska.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

Everyone has the same opportunity to hunt for deer. How you decide to spend it (working, hunting, sleeping or whatever) is a personal choice. Don't come crying because guysthat built up comp time beforethe season or have vacation time so they can hunt and you cannot because of personal decisions you made. We all have a 2 week rifle season.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

What do you think the approximate kill is?? Even if you reduce those figures by 25%, thats still allot of deer...

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OK, let's not make it personal. But it seems that you want just that. Why else would you question what I do for a living? I am retired. I don't work for anyone. As far as I know, I have no relatives who work for either DCNR or the PAGC, so put that stupid puppy to rest, will you? Are you one of Jim Slinsky's relatives? Maybe Jim himself?

Check stations would be nice, but what makes you think those same scoflaws who don't send in their report cards would go one foot out of their way to take their deer to a check station? You and I both know people who butcher their own deer and haven't sent in a report card in twenty years. Would you set these stations up at every intersection? Who do you think would pay for the cost? It works fairly well for black bears because we only kill a few thousand of them and "sportsmen" seem to be happy to check them in for the recognition it gets them. It doesn't work that way for deer. What recognition do you get for shooting a button buck? By the way, I hear that Maryland got about 45% of their deer brought to check stations. How did they figure that one out? I guess they estimated it.

Again, if you don't like the blame commission's figures for deer harvests, please provide me with a source for your more accurate ones.

Perhaps you are a lazy wannabe sportsman and perhaps not. I would have no knowledge of that since I don't know you and you obviously know nothing about me or you would not have asked such questions as you asked unless your sole purpose was to stir up arguments.

Since you seem to be fond of personal observations as to deer and the health of the forest, here is one of mine. I used to hunt a place close to Orbisonia along a road called Black Log Bench Road. The DCNR logged this area about fifteen years ago. They put fences up in some sections. You should see the difference between the fenced sections and the unfenced areas. The only difference is that the deer are free to feed outside the fences. Without trees there is no forest.

A second observation of mine is that I am seeing far fewer songbirds in the woods than I used to see. This seems to be because many of them nest and feed in the understory. In many areas of our forests there is no understory.

A third observation is that the population of deer seems to have crashed in the mid to late 1990's in the Young Woman's Creek area of Clinton County. A friend of mine who hunts there told me that. He has been hunting out of the same camp for thirty five years. He also told me that the doe licenses for that area sold out almost immediately and that many went unused. It would seem that you sportsmen who hunt there are doing what you want us to do without the Pa. Game Commission to help you.

A fourth observation from my personal hunting experience is that the deer are a lot more wary now than they were five years ago. Perhaps this is because of our having that early muzzleloader season. I suspect that the fewer deer in the woods are smarter deer by the time rifle season rolls around. They are also much harder to pattern than they used to be. I worked on one big buck most of archery season and never got his pattern figured out. Maybe he figured out mine?

With such a thing as managing millions of acres of state forest, gamelands, and a huge population of deer as well, there are no simple solutions. Apparently there are plenty of simple people around, though. Please be assured that I work hard for every deer I get and will continue to do so. I used to see fifty deer on the first day of buck season. This year I saw six. Things have changed. You either change in response to the changes in the situation or your success as a hunter or hunting wannabe will go down. The choice is yours. Of course you can keep on posting on message boards like this one. It won't put more deer in your favorite deer woods, but it might make you feel better.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

What motivation would the blame commission have to falsify those figures? I can tell you that I think they are fairly accurate, but since us "sportsmen" don't return all of our report cards, they can't be one hundred percent accurate. They are the best available. If you have a source for better and more accurate figures, please post it. Personally, I do think the PAGC has a better idea of how many deer are killed statewide than either of us does. If you think you are better at this than they are, apply for the job.

Most people I talk to have never seen the hunting this difficult either. We are in the same boat here. I have freely admitted that I don't see as many deer as I used to see. Still, I think herd reduction was necessary. I have given my reasons for that in other posts. Also, I like the AR program.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

By the way, and just for your information, I left the house this morning to take a walk in the mountains. It is rough going with the ice crust on top of the snow. I saw only three sets of tracks on the mountain, but when I went across to the low ridge above the farm fields there were tracks and fresh scat everywhere. I didn't see that many deer as were obviously making all those tracks during rifle season. Where were they? I don't know, but I am trying to get a better idea.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

Seems to me you have done the very thing that many accuse the PGC of doing. Using partial information and assumptions to draw a conclusion.You overheard someone say something they got 4 doe and a buck but you cant say where in 2G or even if they hunted 2G at all!!!

It's no wonder the PGC doesnt give any credibility to "stories from hunters"

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

Turkeyhunter,
I agree an understory is a good thing but you need sunlight to get that understory.Everytime I see a clearcut or opening in the canopy there's new growth.In these places a person can look 25 yards to his right and there will be a thick canopy with no understory and or ferns.
Through many years of being in the woods I've seen this result.You can take an area of old growth and kill every last deer and there's still not going to be an understory.Forest management has to take place for good new growth to take place.Killing all the deer won't get it done.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

Also turkeyhunter speaking for the areas I hunt the deer aren't any more weary then they were 20 years ago when we had alot more small game hunters tramping through the woods.In fact I used to see triple the small game hunters in the woods then I do early ML and rifle hunters.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

We obviously have a difference of opinion as to the wariness of deer, germaine, and I accept that. I do not favor cutting trees so that there will be more food for deer. I hope you are not saying that overpopulation of deer is not what produced the browselines in the northcentral forests. If so, I believe you are wrong and we will have to disagree about that as well.

I favor cutting trees to harvest a crop that is worth harvesting and that by harvesting it you will not damage the ecological balance. I do not favor never cutting trees, as those who want zero use of our forests seem to want. Trees are a renewable resource and can be used if used according to a well conceived plan. In short, the forest must be managed for the health of the forest and not to produce the maximum number of deer for the happiness of hunters. Unfortunately we did just the opposite for many years. Now we have to pay the price for that mismanagement of the past half-century. You will never see the herds of deer that you used to see. Perhaps that is unfortunate. Perhaps not. It is the way things are.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

I should add one thing, germaine. As to the hunters in the woods, I agree with you that there are definitely fewer. I saw a grand total of four other hunters in the woods during the two weeks of rifle season. Where is that pumpkin army everyone seems to be so afraid of? They sure aren't on state gamelands 81, at least not the part of that 2000 acres that I hunt.

I will stand by what I said. Small game hunters didn't scare the deer nearly as much as being shot at does. My deer are much more wary than they used to be by the time rifle season rolls around. You are lucky yours aren't. Hunting must be much easier for you than it is for me where I hunt. I believe my deer are born scared.

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Turkeyhunter,I'm not saying they should manage the forest for deer only.But I do feel they have a responsibility of managing for wildlife and creating a healthy forest environment.That means not caving into the extreme environmentalists when they hold up the cutting of timber on state or federal lands.
In the past the forests would stay healthy from mother nature by way of lightening strikes which in turn caused fires that lasted days and burned thousands upon thousands of acres.We all know what that creates for the wildlife.But now we won't let fires burn themselves out and we haven't for years.So in turn now we have to take the place of some of those fires we won't let burn.
Clearcutting is a good thing,both for timber and for wildlife including song birds you mentioned.
Yes the DCNR is in the timber buisness but the state forest land was also put aside for recreation which deer hunting is.
Like I said in my earlier post the understory won't grow without man's help.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

I forgot something turkeyhunter.:D
I have seen the browselines up north and I feel in areas the herd did need to be trimmed and indeed it was.But some of those areas are reaching dangerously low deer populations and it's time for the PGC to take action and cut the number of tags and or shorten the seasons.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

i am not crying .i am only concerned that letting a hunter kill 3 ,4 or 5 deer in wmu that hasvery few deer , is not good.that was my point.that hunter continues to kill all those deer and others see nothing. its like me,i can fish a hole out of creek faster than you can throw your line in.do i, no.i release all fish i catch most of time.if i did not, many fisherman would catch very few trout.same with hunting.i let 4 doe walk for 2 weeks of hunting here in pa.i could have killed them ,i chose to not to.why, i want to see fawns and young bucks grow up. if doe hunting continues in WMU 2G here in pa. i cant see many hunting anymore.then the ones that want hunting stopped altogether and want us out of woods, will move in.i hope you can see that.no deer=no hunters and in comes the ANTI-HUNTERS.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

We are not so far apart in our thinking, germaine.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

I was thinking the same thing TH.:D

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

I get out into game lands a lot. i walk far, i hunt hard. in my area inot only go by not seeing many deeri also go by not seeing much sign ofthem. if i kill a deer or turkey i turn in my report card.I dont say"theres nodeer" but i say the herd is to far down in my area. with that being said does this make me a "bad sportsmen" ?
I also agree w/ germain about the sunlight needing to reach the floor.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

dont know who your talking to but we got plenty of deer in 3d everyone i know filled there tags seen alot of nice bucks all on state and federal land i had about 15 deer in my yard this morning and see about 5-20 every day on the way to rt 80

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

IM SAYING I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW HOW MANY DEER ARE ESTIMATED AND HOW MANY ARE ACTUALLY ACCOUNTED FOR SO WE CAN SEE HOW MANY DEER THEY ESTIMATE BEING KILLED COMPARED TO THE ONES THEY ACTUALLY KNOW WERE KILLED. I AM SURE THAT THE NUMBER OF DEER ESTIMATED IS A LOT HIGHER THAN DEER ACCOUNTED FOR.
AND I AM ALSO IN FAVOR FOR AR JUST NOT IN FAVOR OF SUCH DRASTIC HR. AND I NEVER SAID THEY GC FALSIFIES THEIR REPORTS I JUST THINK THEY REALLY DONT HAVE ANY WAY OF GETTING AN GOOD ACCURATE ESTIMATE. LIKE I SAID I JUST WANT THEM TO POST THEIR FIGURES SO WE CAN SEE HOW THEY COME UP WITH THEIR ESTIMATES COMPARED TO HOW MANY DEER THEY KNOW FOR SURE WERE KILLED

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I really think most of us have close to the same goals.Our methods of getting there seem differant its the end result that matters.The P.G.C. in its usual wisdom chooses to ignore the very people that they are payed to serve.As hunters we do have the power to change things it will just take time.Some of you that live in the middle of the stateare paying a heavy price for the goals the state set for you.
Join your local sportsmens clubs talk to your friends&neighborsmake sure your young hunters get deer & make sure anyone that needs meat gets it,but then think about if you really need to shoot a doe.If you have a farmer that wants deer shot go there and hunt.
As for these guys that need to shoot 3-5 deer,stay away from them If they have so little resepct for deer that they feel the need to kill them just to give them away,there is no reason to be seen or hunt with them.

There are places that have to many deer & there always will be but there is no reson for this whole sale doe slaughter state wide!
Over time your deer will come back to huntable numbers & your kids will thank you.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

It is not necessary to shout to get your point across.
Here is a link to an article written by Dr. Chris Rosenberry in which he explains how the game commission arrives at the estimated numbers. http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=465&q=151378

While the article is long, if you manage to read it through to the end I think you will have a fairly good idea how the numbers are determined. There is never going to be any way that an estimate would be as good as an actual counted number, but for the present, it is probably the best they can possibly do, until such time as all sportsmen who harvest a deer send in their report cards, that is.

RE: 1 DEER AND YOUR DONE
 

One other thing... the PGC is not solely to serve hunters. The PGC exists to manage all wild birds, mammals and their habitats for current and future generations. Us hunters need to get rid of our self serving attitudes.