RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

Does any one here actually know how the DEC calculates the # of deer in the state? I've read the Outdoor News about them using deer harvests and traditional success rates. I don't think you can start handing out thousands of permits, permit use of regular license tags to shoot does and still use the tradional methods.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

No atlas, thats NOT what I think. As I have already stated, I feel that there SHOULD be less deer, and this is good. So, if theres still those out there, like yourself, that feel otherwise, then I offered self control asan option.

Bottom line, there were too many deer. The state issued many permits to kill many deer and reduce the herd. The hunters did just that, knowingly. Now theres less deer, obviously. Now, AFTER they get their freezer full, they complain theres no deer, and it has to be DECs fault. Like I said, we just disagree. Im as comfortable with my opinion as you are with yours.

I hope the numbers in your area rebound to where you like them soon.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

That's great.........but it's not reality so no use pretending. A couple hundred thousand random people and the answer is self control?? That is a dream world. The only way most guys aren't gonna fill a tag is if they don't have one. You can't HOPE they don't do something..........you have to MAKE them not do it by not giving out baskets of tags.


What proof do you have that this is true??


That is ABSOLUTELY false IMO.........they didn't think they were reducing the herd. They were told that they had to fill more tags just to keep up with the ever expanding herd because it was still growing at the levels we were killing.


If the DEC had been honest with hunters and told them that we are gonna give you guys extra tags BUT.........the herd is gonna take a beating and you can expect deer numbers to be way down in the coming years.........I doubt very many people would have agreed to that.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

You aren't kidding Bill. My wife just hit one in Scottsville.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

Phade, I hear ya man. Theres no use arguing it here, guys dont wanna hear it. I know YOU know where Im coming from. Like I said, Im glad its not ME who has to do the DECs job!

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

And now, in many places, Atlasman is right - there are too few deer.

The state's OFFICIAL position is that across 2/3 of the state they want to increase the deer herd. And that was prior to this season.

Theres no use arguing with that, either.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

I agree that certain areas of the state the numbers are downdue to an overabundance of permits given out in prior years. I feel that each WMU or even parts of the WMU's vary in numbers of deer. I know one thing down here in 3R we have plenty of deer. This was one of the rare areas where non-residents stood a high chance of receiving first and second permits. Only problem is one of access to land(1/4 of this area is state and county parks)and out of the 5 townships in this WMU only one still lets you discharge a firearm whereas the others it is archery only. If I could hang a tree stand off my back deck I could easily tag out. Only problem, if I missed the arrow would bounce off the blacktop that the deer must cross so they can eat my landscaped bushes. I personally think that after opening of southern zone alot of deer become nocturnal. I hunted 6p last year and this year and after the opener stand hunting became very difficult. The guys I hunted with pushed bush,something I do not enjoy, but when in Rome do what the Romans do so i partcipated in these deer drives. I plan on going back up to 6P/6R to finish out my ML season. My friend and I have a piece of property(100 acres)that has yet to be hunted and I am assumming the deer will be unmolested those first 2 days we hunt it. Last year after each hunt in 6P we would shine the fields and every other field held 10-15 deer casually eating at app. 6PM.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

Took my 5 yr old and 9 yr old son`s out tonight. My 5 yr old fell asleep in our tower . I couldn`t believe he got that bored but not seeing deer is bad for the kids. I just enjoy being in the woods but it`s hard to get them into it.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

Here`s a link to a news report in the local paper.

http://www.syracuse.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news-0/11179606926320.xml?syrnesreg


Here`s part of the report.

Statewide, more than 50,000 deer are struck by cars each year, according to the state Department of Environmental Conservation.
In 2004, maintenance crews removed more than 2,400 deer carcasses from the Thruway. Insurance companies estimate nationwide deer-vehicle crashes cause more than $1.1 billion in damage annually.( I believe I said in a earlier post thatthis could be a reason for the DEC to ruin the herd, but was told insurance companys just charge you more.)

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

I have been reading through all of the post's about the lack of deer and the poaching problems, but the one thing I haven't seen mentioned yet, and maybe people don't realize, is nuiscance permits. The dec hands these out like you wouldn't believe. If a farmer calls them up and says he has crop damage the dec hands over nuiscance permits. The problem with this is onefarmer may get 15 permits,and one may get 2 or 3.Now I am not saying that they shouldn't get these permits, because some areas are really bad with crop damage,but if the farmer is a hunter thentry to solve some of the problem during deer season.When they go out and use all of the permits,and then they don't see any deer during deer season they blame the dec.If the farmers with crop damage would allow hunting from people other than themselves, then theymay be able to reduce the crop damage.But instead they post the land, don't allow anybody on, and they shoot deer all year on nuiscance permits.If you kill the deer before season how can you expect to see deer during season?
Another problem too is menonites. yes that's right, menonites. WhereI live there are alot of menonites,some of these guys arebigger poachers than any one around. They kill any deer that they see whether they have tags or not.It doesn't matter to them because they may tag one and anything theykill after that goes untagged. They don't hesitate to trespass across someones property either. Just try to get charges pressed against them.... good luck.
The dec has alot of issues to work out.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

Nuisance permits are handled very poorly IMO. Too many deer just get killed for the sake of getting killed. I have seen them piled up in a ditch and I personally know a farmer that kills them and piles them up and burns them with his trash.........it's horrible.

There should be no nuisance permits at all.............what they should have is the ability to apply for your deer to be thinned out by the DEC. When you can't do it yourself then ask for help. The DEC could have a list of hunters for each area and when a chance comes up they would be given permission to go and take some deer. At least they wouldn't get wasted.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

Atlasman,
I hunted NY for the first time in years with old hunting friends..we almost alwayshunted private land..I had high hopes of "seeing" a lot of deer. The harvest would be just a bonus, I really mean it.
I hunted hard for 2 days and saw5 does 99% of the hunt was still hunting ..rather quick I may add. Spent more time looking for sign and covering a lot of territory hoping to find a "honey hole". Years ago this would have the total by the first day at 10 am.
Don't know what has happened but I can see things have changed..I still own a goodpiece of property in NY that boarders 1100 acres of state land. I have not hunted it in 8 years and keep it posted maybe after this weekend I will check it out and "see" what kind of sign remains after the season.
Hope things improve for everyones sake.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

ive hunted the n.y. catskills for 25 years ,we are no where near the herd that we had back then. what bothers me is the decline of hunting deer here. the road that i have hunted on for those years the autos parked on that road has gone from 15 or so to 2 trucks on opening day.you would think that would be positive sign for the herd. nope i see far less deer now ,then when there was far more hunters .i believe it is a combination of factors including coyotes ,road hunting , jack lighting , winter starvation ,old growth forest. one more thing ,that may bother some,but i could care less, i get my hands on as many doe permits as possable, but i have never shot or will ever shoot a doe , as i see it through the years ive saved around 25 deer.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

Not sticking up for Atlasman BUT I can personally state that for years living in NY and having a camp in Roscoe NY. Hunting hard from October Bow season till the end of rifle season for 30 something years then skip 5 years and compare to what I have just witnessed this year things have changed period.
NY is still far better than some areas. BUT thats not what this is about

NY has changed period, no whinning, no crying thats just the way it is.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

Explain to me (anyone) - how this is a positive course of action. Worse yet are guys that "call them in" -

When you mess with the system - you mess up what gets done with the information. At the very least - you cloud the results - and force the DEC to make assumptions that YOU don't agree with.

FH

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

You know what - I'm trying to be politically correct with my responses - but - I'm not sure why.

The truth is that we/us employ the DEC. Many dozens of well trained biologists work extremely hard to meet in the middle the demands of hunters with those of outside interests - and do a really good job.Most of these guys hunt too, and understand what the average hunter wants.

If you are not seeing the deer you think you should be:

1. your used to seeing TOO MANY deer (like in your back yard)
or
2. then the population is down in your area and the DEC either wants it that way - or they are working to increase the herd.

If you cannot be happy with that - then you should bring up your concerns with you region manager.

FH

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

And if neither of those are happening. QDM your herd on private land. Because your not gunna get it on public landif that’s the case.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

OR MOVE!!!!!!!

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

I do not buy into that 50,000 per year deer vs. car accidents in NYS...
that would translate into
136 per day
5.6 per hour

I live in a very high deer population area in the hudson valley and I cannot tell you the last time someone I know hit a deer. I know it happens all the time but it cannot be 50,000 per year.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

Let me try. 5 off us hunt together and none of us use our doe permits but we do call them in. The reason is that way the DEC will think these does are being shot. If you get doe permits and don`t call them in then they will think that those deer were not taken and need to issue the permits again.If you really think the DEC goes out and counts deer herds your crazy. I think we should get a meeting set up for area hunters and then sit down with a DEC officer and talk about how they work. Maybe if we get info from them personally then we`d understand it more clearly. Just my 2 cents. Anyone in for this get together?



mike

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

Sigh.

Looks like we should now adopt a new slogan.

New York.....The next PA.

It looks like there are already two camps here. I'm still predicting this off-season will be worse than last.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

Stretchunts -

If you and 4 others call in your permits as "filled" - You skew the number.

Let me explain. The DEC Does not count all deer herds per se - but they sample, and use statistics togive them a good indication of numbers ofdeer.

Letssay that historically 50% of doe permits are filled.When you and your buddies report 100% success -to them it may notmean that too many deer were taken. In fact it could mean the opposite - and since a "higher percentage" of permits were "filled" - then they may concurr that they did not issue ENOUGH permits - and issue more next year.

My point is you DON'T KNOW how they use the call in data - and by not reporting accurately - you contaminate the results - then people complain that the "DEC is a JOKE".

Why not report accurately and let them do their Job?

FH

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

Phade - some people will always complain abou the DEC and deer management in NY.

Over the last 10 years - these same guys weren't patting the DEC on the back for the huge increases in the deer herd and harvest - they were complaing that too many deer were getting shot - and too many permits were being issued - even with RECORD POPULATIONS and harvests year in and year out.

The DEC has said the last few years that there is such thing as "too many deer" - and now that populations have been swinging down. The same guys that "refuse to shoot does" are armchair managing the state deer herd.

I say let the DEC do their Job.

Ask them to list their population goals for each WMU and hold them to it.

FH

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

I do see your point. I really do want to know how they come up with thier numbers.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

Mtair - How are you "saving" them by getting a permit and not shooting them? Do you "call in" your permits as filled? - If not then Maybe the DEC just thinks you are a lousy hunter.

My point is the same as I made to stretchhunts - YOU do not know how the DEC uses the numbers of deer harvested (or not harvested - or the percentage).Maybe they don't even consider whether you took a deer or not.

One thing I can say about Doe permits - is that the DEC uses Population counts (out of season),weather conditions at fawn drop, and predator populations - as much or more than harvest results. Also meat cutter checks, or surveys - in the determination of how much of the herd can be harvested - and ultimately the number of permits issued.

If the DECthinks that 8000 Antlerless deer can be harvested in a WMU - its because they've done their analysis. Maybe they issue 20,000 permits to take these 8000 deer. Next year they will check the populations using surveys, harvest totals etc against their predicted populations - and come up with a NEW number. It may or may not matter one lick - that you let every doe pass that you see.

Why not let them dotheir job, and even harvest a Doe if legal? If they say its OK - then really - it probably is. If not - and you take one anyhow, they will compensate the next year or two.

In the Catskills, (and elsewhere) the habitat can only supprt SO MANY deer - and when that number is approached - the DEC Checks it back quickly -

I think in General - people have come to expect 30-40 deer per square mile. In so many places in NY - these numbers are not feasible without habitat control that favours deer - Forever Wild is NOT a habitat control option that does.

FH

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

This is the mentallity that the DEC has to deal with, as if trying to manage the herd wasnt hard enough! Remember, the DEC is in the public relations business too...

The way the state estimates numbers and determines how many to take is flawed by anyones standards, but they do the best they can. They use aerial surveys in certain areas were topography permits it. Measuring browselines and monitoring native food plants is another. Counting offspring through birth scars, numbers of fetuses developing in roadkill does, and also hunter input. Guess what? They already know how "clever" some are, and figure in for all those doe tags reported but not filled. Theres equations based on averages and a whole bunch of thought that goes into this. Its not a perfect system, but its basically all they have.

Like so many others have said in this thread, the state hasnt done a great job in every area, but the solution, to micro-manage certain areas, to date doesnt seem feasible yet. The DEC does NOT, however, win too many hunters over when they try to force feed us the silliness like state wide winter kills, etc. I for one wish they could set aside the arrogance and just admit they erred, and adjust the numbers in some areas, and just do the best they can. I think we could all live with that.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

“to micro-manage certain areas.” And like BTBowhunter said for PA in a few posts; “Smaller WMU.” For accrete harvest numbers and better calculating tags issued for the future. It Makes a lot of sense to me.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

I'm sure the DEC uses many ways to calculate, estimate NY's deer population. But whenever I look on their websight for harvest numbers, and predictions its all about bucks per square mile. So it seems to me the amount of bucks taken per square mile is a big part of their figures. I just re-checked 2004 harvest numbers on the DEC websight. 47 wmu's were 10% or more below the projected buck per square mile harvest. Forty Seven!!! This I believe was the DEC's main reason for backing off on the permits handed out, and closing some wmu's to permits all together. So we can go on and on about what the population should be at, and what the DEC has been trying to do. But their own numbers show that 47 of 75 wmu'swere below their own objective population levels going into 2005 season. It'll be interesting to see this yrs harvest numbers.
The 1 thing I do not agree upon, and for the life of me don't understand hunters that do this crap. Is to falsely report taking or not taking of game. Especially when ones have no clue on how the DEC does the calculations. This is the only system wehave to rely on, like it or not.Your not helping this state by playing games with your tags, and trying to take this upon yourself to configure. Its one thing if you select not to shoot a doe, small buck, fawn, whatever. But its another when you falsely report. It pisses me right off. [:@]
I have a question for some of the more knowledgable on the DEC. Can anyone tell me how they came about the boundary lines for WMU's. Like why is 7M so big compared to the rest of Southern N.Y. wmu's, in fact its the biggest in Southern NY. I wonder if it wouldn't be better to split the sucker in half, and try to manage the population. 7M is obviously screwd up! I recall when part of it was area 75, and it wasn't this big.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

in general, they tryuse similar land uses to help them determine WMUs and then try and use easily recognizable boundries (rivers, highways, etc.) to mark them. For example, 7M (where I hunt) is so big because it is premoninatly rural and they have tried to encompass the large amount of public land in the area. I probably wouldn't hurt to split it in half, but it is the way it is. Other units may be predominantly privately owned, others may be based more on topography. They do have a rythme to their reason.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

farm hunter, i would never call in on an animal that i didnt harvest, thats illegal to some degree. it is my decision on getting a permit and not using it, i how ever signed my permit over to others who in my belief could really use the extra venison. if land i hunt is not up to its deer carrying potental and i pass on a doe or two it makes me feel im doing the right thing. im not obligated to harvest a doe because i have a permit. i would like to add i think a major problem in my zone that absolutly has on the herd are the outlaws that pound away at the herd density by not being able to stop at thier quota ive known people that dont stop untill the season ends . if you have a piece of land with as little as one hunter doing this it wont take very long to notice a deline in the herd.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

WOW sounds like we got a few DEC officers on this site? ;)I`ve got an ex dec officer who is a close friend of the family so if anyone wants to talk to him I`m sure I can set it up. So let`s all get out there and hunt, 4 more days to go fella`s.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

Well said - I understand where you are coming from, and I agree. Thanks for clarifying - sorry I didn't read it right the 1st time.

FH

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

yeah i have a couple encon officers i see frequintly. imsure we could vget some answers fromthem

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

I really think this would be a great idea instead of us hunters asking each other ?`s that the DEC officers could answer correctly. Again I`ll call Mike Mitchell (Ex DEC now town of lenox court justice) and see what I can get him to tell me.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

Econ officers aren't the ones you need to be asking questions (at least the majoirty of them - the reporting of an animal not really harvested, portions of total numbers might be somewhat answered)...

You should be discussing this with the regional biologists, and the Albany based ones, like O'Pezio.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

Didn't see a single deer all of muzzleloader season. That makes my total deer seen during the combined 3 weeks of regular and 9 days of ML to 4.........four friggin deer in over a month of hunting most of which was walking. 3 of the 4 deer I saw were bedded down and got up and ran........2 were just glimpses of white tails.

What an absolute freakin mockery this season was to NY hunters.


We need changes in this state............BIG TIME.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

hmmmmmmmmm,

I bet there are a lot of hunters that would care to disagree to that statement. ...Deleted by CalHunter...

AS for me the season turned out ok (doe & buck) even though I dodn't see a lot of deer on regular season (saw a bunch in bow and ML)

suggestion: stop talking in absolutes and, like others have said, try and be constructive/progressive to help correct the situation that MAy exist locally in your area.

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

Where did I speak for anyone else?? I voiced MY opinion that this season was a mockery to NY hunters.


Suggestion: learn how to spot an opinion and stop being so defensive.



Perhaps you didn't see my statement that we need changes.....BIG TIME!!!

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

Sorry you had such a bummer year Atlasman, I think when the year is said and done - the deer take will be down. In the most adversely effected areas - I think the DEC has already taken steps to increase the herd next year - and hopefully in your area - in a few years - things will get back to normal for you too.

Most folks that know me on on this website know that we plant some pretty serious food plots at our property. But the property is only 200 acres and hunted by 4-10 guys (not always the same ones either) for 8 weeks straight. The hunting pressure here is intense - more than on the public land I drive by every day - bya lot. Still we saw dozens and dozens of does the last weeks of Gun and BP - in 7M where no Doe Permits were issued. The deer come to where the food is when the Snow flys.

What is reality - is that the surrounding properties - cannot even support their does and fawns in Early Winter - for lack of food - and too many deer per acre. So - they come to ours. We protect alot of deer for the last several weeks of the season - by only hunting the plots - not the woods.

Its not like it was in the 70s and 80s when you had a bunch of 200-500acre dairy farmers - and food everywhere. So many areas that used to be able to support 30-40 deer per square mile - cannot support even 20 now.

FH

RE: NYSDEC is a joke
 

Well said doughboy