Antler Point Restictions in Wisconsin
 

New here. I posted about this on another forum (gbo), but seems to be kinda dead over there compared to what it was a few years ago. Anyhow, would like to know what other hunters think about this. If you have it in your state and how its working out, or if you would like to see it in Wisconsin. I wouldn't be opposed, my group and I have been letting the little yearlings (spikes, forks, and sixes) go for quite a few years now. I don't really have a problem with anyone shooting a legal buck, but of coarse wouldn't mind seeing more/bigger bucks myself. To me, if you're looking for some venison, you may as well shoot a doe and let that fork turn into an eight next year. I'm not really a "trophy" hunter (if I held out for a "trophy" I'd never shoot anything), I'm happy with a 2 1/2 year old eight pointer, but I think APR would improve the chances of seeing 3 1/2 or older bucks. Enough of my rambling, what do you guys think?

here in Pa. we have antler restriction. some like it some don't. I myself don't like it. since it was started I have seen a lot of property leased and posted. we also have lost a lot of hunters too. finding a place to hunt is getting hard. we have state game lands but they fill up quickly. as I don't hunt for horns it doesn't interest me to have antler restriction. this is just my opinion.

I am also from PA. I am not a bone hunter, I hunt deer, I will take the first large bodied buck that meets the antler restrictions or large doe that is unfortunate to come into gun range. That said, when antler restrictions and herd reduction were initiated in PA it was for the purpose of getting an older age class of bucks and reducing the doe numbers. 70 to 75 percent of our buck harvest was deer a year and a half old. We were killing most of our bucks before they were two and a half years old, coupled with the extreme number of does we had in the state was damaging habitat and our herd was way out of balance in age classifications. This was not done to create trophy buck but it did have that result because we now have a much older age structure of bucks in the state. Most of our state is a buck must have at least 3 points on at least one antler and the point must be an inch or more long, the rest of the state is a legal buck must have "three on top" that means it must have at least three points on at least one antler not counting the brow tine. We are now seeing lots of very large bodied and big racked buck everywhere in the state. Since I am not an antler hunter I was luke warm to the change but since I understood it was about herd health not about creating trophy deer I supported the program. There are those who don't like the fact that they cannot shoot the first 3 inch spike buck or 4 point they see and those who were so use to being over run with doe that it just was a matter of sitting down and waiting for one to come along that they still bad mouth the program but they cannot argue with the results, it did exactly what the biologists said it would do. Since I have no idea what herd and habitat conditions are in Wisconsin, I am in no position to recommend it in your state or not, I can just tell you why PA did it and what the results are because of it.

If it was marketed in such a way as to be about the biology of the herd and continuing its health and sustainability. I think a moderate point restriction might get decent backing from the hunting community at large in Wisconsin.
But since our DNR has such a poor record of using science and of explaining why they are doing what they are doing. Few people here would believe them at all.

Sonny, our agency did explain the biology aspects of the program. The Biologist went all around the state putting on programs in big venues for months to explain why it was necessary to reduce the herd and protect young bucks but all many in the audience saw was the racks from 5 and 6 year old deer compared to 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 year old deer that he held up and never heard the reasons for the program and they came away believing it was a trophy buck program. It is one of the faults of human nature to hear and see what you want to hear and see. I had an old WCO friend who use to say," I know you think you understand what you thought I said, however I am not sure what you heard was what I meant". That hits the mark on the money in our deer program change.

Thanks for the input. I don't know if antler restrictions are causing these issues. Hunter numbers have gone down in Wisconsin over the last twenty years, although not a lot (694712 in 2000 and 613165 in 2015) and I know a lot more land is posted now compared to when I was starting out 20, 25 years ago. Maybe the antler restrictions are contributing to these issues in pa, though, its certainly not my place to say. I'm not just out there to get something to hang on the wall, either. I just enjoy going, and it sure doesn't bother me to have a nice rack of horns hanging off my venison. I don't know if APR are the way to go or not. I would think it would help the deer herd. I guess the selfish side of me wishes that all the neighbors had the same standards I do. I don't get mad about anyone shooting a legal deer, but it is a little annoying when you now the same groups of guys that are wackin' multiple little bucks every year. I just think to myself "If you'd quit doing that for one year, by next year they'd be decent eight or ten pointers" just my opinion. On the other hand I would not want to deny any of the old farmers around my area (or any young kid) a chance at a buck, especially when he's been feeding them all year.

I smell what you're stepping in. Like I said, I don't get mad about it, and the only time it annoys me is when you get the guys in my area bragging about all the bucks they shoot. And you find out later that they shot a spike with their bow, a fork opening morning of gun season and then another spike to fill their wife's tag. Come on now. My three nicest bucks are in the 110 to 120 range and I've never seen one bigger than that,not while hunting anyway. I know not every hunter is just after big horns. But who wouldn't rather shoot a nice buck rather than doe or a spike? BTW the vast majority of bucks taken in Wisconsin are yearlings. I do think it would be better for the herd to have more mature bucks.

What are you calling a yearling?

1 1/2 year old legal buck.

I live in Michigan which is divided into DMU, deer management units. All kinds of rules on the books per unit. Unit where my deer camp is only had no doe permit restrictions yet the herd has never built up and it isn't all about harsh winters. Lots of people feed their family's in the area, any deer standing in sight of a road is fair game any day of the week season or not.


Where my Brother lives they have a doe permit drawing and all bucks must have at least 3 points on one side. Just made the locals mad and poachers out of a bunch of them. 90 percent of the locals butcher their own deer so they shoot any buck with 3 inch antlers like they always did. Do not display the deer and butcher it so who can say it didn't come from the county 25 miles away.


Where I live in Southern Michigan, no antler restrictions except the 3 inch rule. I usually get an 8 point every year to fill my big antler combo tag. Many times I get a second one and rarely ever any thing smaller than a 4 point to fill the small antler tag. Yet we have a 5 doe tag per day over the counter sales, A 3 week muzzle loader season and a from just a day or some before Christmas to New Years private land special doe season.
Just yesterday walking my pups in the field and woods I had about 12 to 15 does near me in less than an hour, Really scared to death too standing 10 feet off the trail watching as the pups and I walked by.


Personally I think they should take the antler restrictions and shove it where the sun don't shine.
I like my 1 1/2 year old 8 points and the spikes are not bad eating either. Yup farm fed, with corn and soy beans.


Why would I want to shoot an old tough sway back buck to eat.


I said once before at deer camp if they want to cut the deer herd sell doe permits over the counter. double the cost of a buck tag and make it a drawing to get one too.
Of course today I would stop deer hunting if they did that.


:D Al

243, ok, just wanted to understand what you were saying. Many folks call deer of the year yearlings .

Same here a yearling was the fawn of the present year.


:D Al

I'm also from PA. We got antler restrictions in 2002. At first, I was against them. I thought it would lessen my chances of getting a buck and I thought only the best genetics would be removed. As in, most bucks shot would still be yearlings, but the ones with the best genetics.

Well, I changed my mind 100%. We are not only seeing very large racks now, but we are seeing bucks that are 200lb, 220lb, 250lb and even heavier. Every year we are getting nice 5x5s on trail cameras. And there are actually very few spikes. It seems like most yearlings are 5,6,7 and even basket 8s now.

I think a lot of the yearlings having better racks has to do with herd reduction and improved habitat. Antler restrictions will get you that 250lb 10 pointer.

I actually passed up a few legal bucks in the past few years. Back in the day, the first 4-pointer would get it.

Now, some of our beliefs changing may also be do to trail cameras. I'm sure we never saw a lot of the big bucks that may have existed prior to ARs.

Barnes, you were not seeing big bucks back then because there were not very many big bucks prior to the change in management, we killed them before they had a chance to grow big. Granted there were a few but nothing like today.

I agree. But I will say that I wouldn't know about half the big bucks I see without trail cameras. But a trip to the butcher's or taxidermist will tell you there are a ton more big bucks.

Can't disagree with that, cameras will give you an idea of what is happening.

I don't like it,

shooting a 2.5yo here with 10pts takes good genes out of the population, whereas you couldn't shoot say a 6 or 8pt 3.5yo+

my cousin shot a big 6 or 8pt a few years back and I said good job on the management buck, he's like management buck!?
It's not all about the points but it's almost impossible for an 8pt to make boone and crockett.

So what! if you want to hold out for a Boone and Crockett buck, knock your self out. Here is a little news flash, very few hunters out of all the hunters are obsessed with Boone and Crockett sized racks. Quite frankly, I doubt you would hold off on killing a 10 point regardless of age if you had the opportunity. You claim it is not all about points yet you lament a 2 1/2 YO 10 point being taken out of the population instead of letting him walk to spread his genes. It sounds like it is all about points. Here is a news flash, he has already spread his genes around for two years before he got taken so it is no big deal.

I guess this is kinda what I would like to see. Not that it matters what I want. I wonder how many young bucks get whacked just because, "If I don't shoot it, it'll just run over to the neighbors and he'll shoot it anyhow". I also wonder if it would get easier to pass on the 2 1/2 year-olds if there were more of them. As for myself, right now I normally see 3 to 6 small bucks over the average nine day rifle season. And over the last decade or so it has worked out that every 2 to 4 years I get a chance at a 14" to 16" eight or ten, which I would imagine are 2 1/2 year-olds. I hunt on my own farm here and on some land that some buddies lease about a half mile away. There is quite a bit of pressure around here. But if I were seeing 6 to 10, 1 1/2 yo bucks and 3 to 6, 2 1/2 yo bucks, I think eventually I would start to hold out for even older better bucks and hopefully this would rub off on other hunter as well. In this neck of the woods fully mature bucks are almost nonexistent even on the trail cams. If someone actually shoots a 140 class buck around here its something special and probably a once in a lifetime thing. Like I said before hunting is not all about the horns for me, and I don't know if I'm completely sold on antler restrictions. But there are basically no mature bucks around my area right now, and without actual deer management it seems like a good compromise.

Exactly what happened here. More bucks and bigger bucks. And we all took it the same way at first. But mentalities changed and we are really seeing the benefits.

Before ARs, we were killing 80% yearlings. Now, it's around 48% yearlings. You know what else is great now? Rattling and calling works. Decoys work. Before, I wouldn't want to grunt and scare away the potential spike or fork. :D Now, I know there are at least three 10 pointers that are between 140 and 155 inches. So I rattle away.

Here are three 8-pointers I shot on the same property in northern PA. Mountains, big woods. The two smaller ones were pre-AR. The bigger one is post. I rattled the biggest one in and he came in with his hair standing on end.

Here's another example of improvements in PA. 20 years ago, PA was the laughing stock of the whitetail world. Home of the 120 pound spike. Check out this sucker. Definitely more than 120 pounds. And not a spike. I honestly think those antlers are bigger than they look. The buck's body just makes them look average.

Wow! Thanks for sharing the pics. Honestly in 25 years of hunting I have never seen a buck like your big one (or the live one, he's a brute)

I personally don't like them in PA as I'm perfectly content shooting a 4 point. However, I cannot deny the results. I see bigger bucks. Not more bucks, but bigger for sure. Pre A.R. I might have seen lots, but most were spikes, 4's and a nice 6 point was considered a good buck. Now I see mostly 8's. Although, I see less deer than before the big doe slaughters happened. The numbers are coming back some, but doubt they'll ever be what they were. Which they say is a "healthy" herd. I'm alright with that. I enjoyed seeing 50+ deer everyday. But if they say the herd is healthier now that's good and I still manage to get some deer every year.


-Jake

I felt the same way at first. Now I'm trying to be a little more selective....at least in archery.

It helped that my son was a MY and is now a junior hunter. He has two more years of not being under ARs. He has shot two 4-pointers and a spike since he started hunting, so we got our meat without being selective. :D

Another thing we started seeing a few years after ARs......G4 tines and non-typical points. Before ARs, I was convinced that typical 8-pointers were the biggest bucks we could produce.

Sounds like you are lacking mature bucks. You would think, especially in Wisconsin, you'd be seeing a lot more big bucks (body and rackss)

with the antler restrictions that were mentioned a 200# mature 6 point is not a legal buck. so if you happen to have a gene of big 6 points what can you do about it with antler restrictions in place or do they have a way around this?

A gene pool consists of both bucks and does. It is not only the bucks that determine what the offspring will develop into.

Funny you should say that. We have had some mature 6-pointers. And this one is well over 200lbs. My neighbor shot him a few years ago. In our WMU, 3 points per side are legal. In some other areas, he gets a pass.

There is a lot of pressure (and pretty low standards) in my particular area.

Because of 6 points of that caliber not being able to be shot I am 100% against a 4 point on 1 side restriction. Not trying to start an argument over it but there are better solutions to having mature bucks being killed.

The other thing about PA is that we are a one buck state. So, guys won't shoot a buck just because he is a cull buck. That would be the end of his season.

As for this buck, I would have shot him no matter what. We watched him for 6 years and got pictures from neighbors of him 7 years prior. He was at least 8.5 years old and probably 9.5 or 10.5 when he died. He was an absolute horse and I would have given him a shoulder mount.

For the record, there was one year when he had more than 6 points. He would have been legal at around 3.5 years old. The year before this picture, he was actually a 5-point. On one side, there was no G2. The main beam grew into a big moose paddle. His name was Csonka.

In an ideal world everyone would be knowledgeable about "QDMA" and practice good habbits, such as shooting matured deer, not just based on number of points... But since you can't trust people to do that, the only way to attempt to enforce it is antler restrictions. I'm sure allot of young 8 points, which would have potential to be real brutes, get shot every year because they are a "legal buck" even though they arent mature.... And every year some heavy and old illegal bucks walk because they don't meet the point requirement.
-Jake

I'm sure you're right. Well, actually, I know you are right. The hope is that this is the exception and not the rule. I'm not sure what the numbers are, but protecting some young bucks is better than protecting none.

It sounds like the OP needs something in place to help his herd out. He's got a serious case of brown and down going on in his area and protecting just a few bucks would help him immensely. A few 3.5 year old Wisconsin bucks would make his hunting experience a lot better. Antler restrictions are the easiest thing to implement. Having guys judge age, and even spread, on the hoof would be pretty tough. Even though point restrictions aren't ideal, they do save some young bucks.

The best scenario is the legal buck that gets saved because the hunter didn't have time to count the points. Maybe the deer was moving, far away or in heavy brush. This frustrates the hunter, but puts a basket 8-pointer into an older age class. :) Now this buck is a 110 inch 2.5 year old. AND.....he's just a little bit harder to hunt. Making his journey to 3.5 years old a little more likely.

I understand what you are saying about it gives younger bucks the best chance to grow big but there isn't much mistaken can be done with a true mature buck whether it has 15 points or 5. as in the pic that was taken and posted of the mature 6 point.

trigger control is everything. also on another corner of discussion what is a trophy to me, you, your buddy, etc... all are all different but if you can only kill 1 buck a year then it is your choice on what you consider a trophy.

I agree with everything you said. Only problem in PA is that we have a million hunters. Maybe 700,000 these days. There is no trigger control and we have lots of guys that only hunt two days a year.

I would abide by an age restriction. Maybe 2.5 yo minimum. I would still like the option to shoot a 100 inch 8-pointer on the last day. :D But there's no way we could get everyone to abide by that.

Some of us and our neighbors already hunt by these standards. What they do on the adjoining game lands is much more random.

I wouldn't begrudge someone shooting a spike or a 4-pointer. Especially if they had limited time to hunt. But we needed some way to scale back the taking of 1.5 year old bucks.

Barnes, an age restriction would be as useless as the cub bear law was in PA when we still had it, the law said a bear had to be over a year old to be legal. Half the hunters never had an opportunity to see enough bears to make that distinction. Of course when you looked in the mouth and the premolar teeth were emerged you knew it was, but it was too late if it was dead. There are too many people who don't know the difference in age of deer and bear on the hoof. When AR started you would not believe the numbers of deer that did not meet the restrictions that were killed and that is still happening, the difference now is that it isn't a pay the small penalty as a mistake kill and lose the head and take it home. Now, the officers are not under a mandate to accept those deer as mistakes and arrests and seizure are taking place. They never should have had that policy to begin with and I fought against it when it was talked about as a policy for the first few years. The problem with that as the policy was developed by biologists who didn't really think much about all the people who were willing to pay a $25.00 restitution fee and go home with a deer sans the head. If there are going to be restrictions they must be enforced with more than a wink and a nod for the law to be effective. This year the numbers of buck killed that did not meet AR was up substantially according to several WCOs I talked to. However with antler restrictions anyone should be able to count to 3 or 4, even though some don't and it is easier in court to show they should have counted points than to try to prove they should have known the age.

Most hunters can't age a deer on the hoof. And experts can be wrong too. Bears are even tougher. Especially if a bear is alone. They look bigger than they are. Especially when you're hunting.

I am surprised that the amount of mistake kills has gone up. Not that people are getting better vision, but I thought less hunters were looking to shoot a small buck these days than back in 2002. For me, if I can't tell if it's legal or not, it's too small to burn my tag on anyway. That's just me personally, but I thought the mentality was changing across the state.

There are the few that will pass on legal bucks, most will try to take any legal buck and nothing wrong with that, then you have those who shoot and check after it is down and hope for the best. Those are the ones that the WCO's have to concentrate on. You have to understand that many PA hunters were brought up into hunting when we had an embarrassment of deer numbers and they thought that easily getting a deer by going out and sitting against a tree and killing a deer was the way it was supposed to be. They were and are the ones who complained to anyone who would listen that PA was destroying the deer herd when HR kicked in, of course those same people shot as many deer as they had tags for which tells you a lot about human nature and holding back for anything that was bigger than 3 inch spikes was a foreign concept for a whole bunch of hunters. The hunters who knew we had too many deer went along with the program even if they didn't like it because they knew it was necessary and those who young when it started and have spent most if not all of their deer hunting under AR and HR have come to accept it and as you have seen our deer are in better condition. In the 70s and 80s if a 200 lb deer came into a butcher shop people showed up just to see it, now it isn't uncommon. I have lived long enough that I have seen the times when it was only the northern tier, the south central and part of the north west that was where hunters went for deer. Now there is decent deer hunting in all 67 counties in the state. I have also seen the damage to habitat caused by too many deer, browse lines where everything they could reach was eaten except the ferns. Wildlife management is not a perfect science, it takes some trial and error and adjustment but I think PA has gone in the right direction from my observations.

My native CO tried it with mulies about 20 yrs ago and it was an epic failure. They dropped it after a few seasons. They did the same thing with elk though and it worked pretty good. For the most part spike bulls are off limits in CO and we have a lot more branch antlered bulls than we used to.

Personally, I hunt for meat so the amount of bone on an animal's head isn't important to me. If it is legal I will attach a tag to it.

I started hunting in 1982. I remember the days of seeing 50 deer a say. But none of them were bucks. At the old hunting camp, with 12 guys for 3-6 days of hunting, if they got a spike and a fork it was a good year. Anyone who was lucky enough to get a doe tag was pretty much guaranteed to get their deer.