Will county Forest preserve deer hunting possible?
 

I never thought I'd like to see the day this would happen, but it looks like it might. I say it's about time! The state must really need to money to be considering this...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...,5519677.story

Actually it's a county thing, not state. I was told there might be additional federal funding coming their way if this is implemented though. I'm going to try to attend the April 1st meeting. I participated in the mirror McHenry County program last year.

Just got the email of this myself, was gonna post it.

This could be great, Cook Co. needs to open up some of theirs for bowhunting, heck every county needs to.

good news travels fast and is hard to keep quiet

No it's not about the money. Where did you get that from? It appears to me that it is about deer numbers that are thru the roof and the WCFPD being concerned about the balance of nature in their preserves.

Do some research.

They're saying healthy herds are under 20 deer/sq.mi., and some areas have 150 deer/sq.mi.!!!!???? what???

I think most counties in IL are under 10 deer/sq.mi.

Open it up to bow!!!

It's crazy to me that this hasn't already been the case, too many hunters, not enough public land. On top of that, most people who hike etc...aren't walking through the woods in OCT-Jan here in IL. Either way a bow hunter better know a human vs. a deer at 30yds!

Maybe deer leases would drop in cost $$ if all these chicago hunters could stay local and hunt?

if they were so concerned about the deer number they would have done something about this a long time ago. it is ridiculous that they actually pay these so called "sharpshooters" to come in and harvest deer. They say that they have to act in accordance with the ILDNR regulations, but then why are these sharpshooters killing deer at night? Last time i checked that was not legal!! This opporunity is beneficial for everyone. If they would quit hiring these sharpshooters and put a program into place that allowed hunters to legally harvest deer with proper permits in the permitted areas the WCFPD could gain money from this. They would gain back any monetary loss from paying these sharpshooters and again gain money from hunters paying for applications for permits, and the permits. This program should be established throughout the Chicagoland area where deer numbers are an issue. Why hire sharpshooters when there are thousands of hunters willing to pay and remove the deer?

Um, they cant afford to pay for sharpshooters or other methods that cost them MONEY. They have NO MONEY. It's not rocket science genius. They will charge MONEY to let hunters hunt the deer and also solve their deer problem at the same time without spending MONEY. Do you think if they had the MONEY they would allow you and I in there to shoot the deer? Have some common sense, research is nothing without common sense.

I read about this today as well. It is about time they started doing this in more than one Forest Preserve district. I don't know how I feel about a shotgun season, HOWEVER, im not too farmiliar with many of the Forest Preserves in this area. I think a bow season is a great idea. If they do offer a draw for a Gun or Bow season and allow out of county hunters in the drawing, I know I'll be in for sure.

I think the County is considering bow hunters to control deer and because it is cost effective. They have done a few recent studies that if a deer population is lowered by strictly sharpshooters, it costs an average of $300 to $500 a deer to taxpayers when it is all said and done. This price includes a variety of costs, not just paying the sharpshooter but a variety of other costs that go into it as well. Now, what I think some counties are learning is that they can charge hunters a decent fee and actually make money on this. Other than some of the negative public outcry it gets, some of these counties/towns are starting to learn that was once a cost can now be a source of income or even at least can be at a breakeven point.

Im all for it, especially if I can get in on it! Lake County please take note!!

The state needs money so WCFPD is going to open up deer hunting? That isn't going to make the state any money. And I'll bet that this doesn't make a profit for WCFPD either. It will save them some from spending $ on hired guns - but not make them any $.

McHenry county does it too. I think if this goes good in Will then there will be some eyes opened in Lake county.

I will be at Thursdays meeting.

I am awaiting the PETA crowds to speak up and am really wondering why we haven't heard a peep from them yet. Fireworks at the meeting?

PETA should be all for "organic meat" ie deer from hunting...

Don K told me Kane County also was strongly considering a program, but I have not seen anything yet.

Uncle Matt, I would join you if it wasn't a LONG hike for me and if I didn't have to work. I have to bet there will be a fair share of animal rights activists present, probably more pro-deer people that live in the neighborhood saying how they love the deer and don't want people running around with guns and bows. Same ol' BS, different place I bet. Im hoping that a respectable hunting crowd shows up in some presentable attire. Its always nice at these things if the anti's show up in jeans and the hunters show up in casual business attire. It usually catches these people off guard. Keep us updated on how it goes, I'd like to see if anything comes out on it. Hopefully the hunters come prepared with good arguements and can counter anything these antis say.

Brian, I believe that the WCFPD has provided a very solid base of reasoning. I see no reason for arguements at all. Something needs to be done. Anyone who wishes to portray themselves as caring about the deer cannot ignore the facts that the deer are way, way, way beyond the carrying capacity which leads to an unhealthy herd and starvation.

They can talk until they are blue in the face about how we are taking their habitat. No matter how much habitat is theoretically provided the deer would always eventually fill it too. So the herds must be managed.

I will go pretty prepared and yes I will dress to impress. No camo.

And I should mention that this meeting runs from 5-8 and people are welcome to come anytime they want. Come and go. There is no "start" and "finish".

Matt, you are correct, I should have not said "Arguments" more along the lines of "abusive points". I attended one of these about 10 years ago where it seemed like each person would bash the person that went before him/her than had an opposite view.

How did it go? I heard that a few people that are on our side showed up and used some abusive language with one of the biologist and some of the hunters looked pretty ragidy. I'm hoping it went well. From what I have seen from your posts on here, Im sure you were quite beneficial to the hunting community. Thanks for attending and let us know how it went.

I couldn't go to Thursday's meeting although I had planned to.

I will be at the one on April 14th in New Lennox.

I planned on going but got stuck at work and couldnt go. Im planning on attending one of the next meetings. Hopefully other counties take notice as well

couldn't get to the last meeting either. :(

Anybody go to the 2nd or third ones?
How did it go?

I crunched some numbers and if you don't live in Will County your chances of drawing a permit for this hunt should be slim to none. That is based on the current proposed guidelines that I read. McHenry County is different. So I'm glad they are doing this hunt, but not counting on it for my fall plans.

Also, considering I-355 is totally ripped up with construction and is just a parking lot, I am passing on attending the last meeting.

It will never happen. the restrictions they have placed on their program mean only about a dozen hunters would get in the preserves and they need to remove hundreds of deer. also, the wya they have it set up is full of staffing and administration--running about $5000/day to run the hunting program and for a dozen deer, it is too expensive. won't happen

Busted
 

fe2manz - YOU ARE THE BUSTED TROLL OF THE DAY!!!

Below is a copy of the BS post you put in the Daily Herald May 7th.

Now you show up on this site with a grand total of ONE (1) post!

You can't even spell ! As indicated by your post below. You are a tree hugger! Showing up on our site. All of your statements below are false and ignorant. McHenry County is the only Chicago area that has a hunting program set up in the Chicago area, and they rave about how successful it has been. I participated in it last year. The $200 fees hunters pay to participate completely cover the cost of the program. Sharpshooters do not generate income, they cost $500/deer plus supervision expense. The numbers don't lie. Your's do. Cook and DuPage, etc. Counties continue to blow taxpayer dollars on sharpshooters. Even says so in their forest preserve brochures. Hunting saves huge money and is the ONLY THING THAT WORKS! History has proven it over and over.

Now get in your minivan, go to your soccer game then the McDonalds drive thru and buy yourself the burger you paid someone else to kill. And don't forget to hug your tree good night.


COPIED FROM MAY 7th HERALD BLOG:


fe2manz wrote: the foerst preserve would not be paying anyone to be a sharpshooter--it is volunteer work by shooters approved by IDNR and the meat goes to charity. hunters cannot and will not make a dent in tehnumbers of deer--it doesn't work in Du Page or Lake or Piatt or McHenry or Cook or any other county in the midwest and it won't work here. Regulated hunting costs a great deal, and then you have to add monitoring to the places you do hunting so you are talking maybe $100,000 per year---ask any surrounding county why they do not hunt? too many good reasons not to hunt and very few good ones to do hunting. as a taxpayer--DO WE AHVE ENOUGH MONEY BLEEDING OUT ALREADY BEFOER ADDING HUNTING AS ANOTHER HOLE IN THE BUDGET/ 5/7/2010 1:01 PM CDT on suburbanchicagonews.com Recommend Report Abuse fe2manz wrote: As a taxpayer, there is no reason to hunt--there are reasons no other forest preserve in IL hunts: it costs too much (more than sharp shooting), it is too hard to regulate, takes too many resources and most of all, IT DOES NOT WORK. Hunting does not work as deer management in urban areas. It hasn't worked in any other area in the US, and it won't work in Will COunty. You will have to hunt AND sharpshoot and that means a lot of wasted tax dollars.the board votes on this next week--all of their email addresses are on the FPDWC web site--so email them and tell them you don't want to pay for hunting when less than 1% of Will CO. hunts and only a small percentage of that could even be allowed to hunt--tens of thousands of dollars just to spend more on monitoring and then shaprshootin after hunting season. fails. call surrounding counties and ask them why htey don't hunt. the Board is pusihng this, not the people.

Soooo I say hunters are stupid to buy a tag when those in charge stuck it to the hunter in the first place. It's about time the hunter gets paid, yes paid to take out nuisance animals.

Hunters should've smiled the first time they hired shooters because sooner or later they would turn to them for the fix. Do it around here and I will do what I can to convince others to hold out despite the bozo who writes for the local rag. A burb has a problem, they dislike hunters and are going to pay to have them thinned. I say good they can pay me and everyone else a bounty sooner or later. The local rag writer got the state to declare the county in a higher harvest bracket and there's no way it should've been. Won't fix the problem. I'm a hunter, I'm patient. :)

Don't buy any tags and they will give you a bounty for each head. It won't take but a few years. Tons of deer every where else, no one needs to hunt there.

Make'm pay ya. You'd like that wouldn't ya? It's in your power to make it happen just keep it in mind.

It's bounty time and I for one say it's about time hunters wise up and stop paying to fix others problems.

You got 10 what are you braging about and check your grammar badge at the door, this is a hunting site anything above a grunt is a plus.

fe2... your dead wrong hunting does work, get a history book on the almost extinction of animals in a very short period of time in this country. We can remove a whole species in short order. Hunting is very effective. I'll tell you what isn't, when man starts fooling around with wild animals thinking they can change'm some how. Get a history lesson on that too.

"The people" need some education. After the deer herd is in check start to work on the public education system. Seems the same breeding problems exist there too.

10$ bounty on each head will create a big hole in that herd for less than anything else. I'd do it for 10 a head.

It isn't that hunting isn't effective--the restrictions placed on hunting in urban areas IS not effective. that is why EVERYONE who is hunting is supplementing with sharpshooting--and if you are using money to sharpshoot, why spend it twice? THAT is why hunting is not adopted in these areas--if there was land enough for unmonitored or large-scale hunting it would work, but the plan for hunting that allows 14 hunters in 5 preserves will not work. Go to the meetings and look at the pans. All the sites are staffed by multiple paid people--those are the restrictions in the plans--it isn't sign-in, sigh-out take your animal home and be done with it hunting. Sorry guys, but that system of hunting will not work.
You can't do bounty hunting in the preserves, you can't go outside IDNR regs, you are restricted to larger buffer zones, fields of fire, partial season--so don't go spouting about educational deficiencies when you are ignorant of the issue at hand. this isn't about HUNTING---it is about deer management in urban areas and if ANYONE took the tiem to read the hundred or so pages the forest preserve put out, they would see that--and the costs are budgeted for--and it will not work. Call DuPage, Lake, McHenry (not a forest preserve, but a conservation district) and ask them why they don't hunt. It isn't because there is no interest. It isn't because they can't hunt. It is because that the restrictions of urban hunting as imposed by their governing bodies makes it not viable. Read all of that information and then preach the history of hunting effectiveness to someone who hasn't...with degrees in natural history of the Midwest, ecology, mammalogy and outdoor recreation, I am well-versed in what the books say--and since they have ruled out archery, and considering only very restrictive shotgun seasons, it won't work.
Even if you double the proposed numbers of hunters to 30--for 5 preserves--and they ALL get 3 deer each--you still have to come in and sharpshoot 300 or more deer--just this year. Not even taking into account that all versions of the plan would require between 15-24 staff for those 5 preserves during hunts--that is almost 1 staff member per hunter--these are all things people would know if they took the time to read all of the documents, not just the outlines and pamphlets that just list the high points. It is all available on their website.
Again, this is NOT about hunting, it is about highly regulated and monitored hunting in urban areas with shotguns--all of the people form every county around us are readily reached, and you can talk until you are blue in the face about what WILL work, but none of those workable solutions are on the table.

Seriously, are you joking? This is one of the most idiotic post that I have ever seen on any website ever. Maybe this counts as a post on your "I can count to 10 without my fingers" websites, but it doesn't count as one here.

I have to think the "no interest" part is the funniest thing I have seen in a LONG time. Do you do any research or just quote things written by other tree huggers? I can GAURENTEE you that if you have 30 spots and had a fee of $100 per spot you would have at least 10x that many people applying! I know Lake county would be AT LEAST that! I'd easily pay $300 for a 4 day gun hunt on an area that has never been hunted and is close to home. I know of at least 10 guys in Lake county that would apply and that is just poeple I know!

Your staffing numbers are way off too. You aren't in putting into the equation how many people it takes to staff these parks on a daily basis if there was no hunting going on. You make is seem like they are adding sooooo much more staff to these places when really it wouldn't be that many more because the parks would normally have these people working. Do you think they are flying in staff from all over for these hunts? No, these books you are quoting are ones that the activists wrote to make the hunt not happen, thankfully, people were smart enough to see through this BS.

Stop providing BS information that was done with no research and done by anti-hunting people. These papers you talk about were written with Bias points. Why don't you do some research and see how Mchenry county did the same exact thing and it has proven that they are saving thousands and thousands of dollars a year. Guess you missed that research?

Please stay off our site and we'll stay off your "I Love all the movies on Lifetime" site. Thank You

Also, what are you talking about how no other cities do this around the country? Are you joking? Every major city is doing this now. They are putting one in place around New York City as we speak now and I can name another 15 cities that do this. Ask Iowa if this program works, seems to be doing great in the cities it is implemented there. Things that you make up in your head are not facts, please don't make them sound like they are.

fe2manz;

You are incorrect when you wrote it dosent work in Piatt County.

As the Hunt in Piatt County at Robert Allerton Park has been proven to work in the reduction of deer population numbers per square mile, A reduction in Deer Vechicle collisions in the surrounding area's,they in fact did away with the sharpshooters all together , and have since allowed Bowhunting Only in the Park.
One University Of Illinois Robert Allerton Park employee ran the program while performing his regular job of pre existing Natural Areas Manager.
Allowing 65 preselected Bowhunters to participate in the Annual Bowhunt. All 65 hunters each perform 40 hours minimum of voluntary service work to the park, attend manditory meetings and pass an Archery Proficency Shooting Test before they are allowed to participate in the hunt. All Bowhunters were required to take a Doe before they were allowed to take a Buck and Bowhunters whom wished to take a second Buck were required to take a second Doe 1st, many bowhunters took as many as 5 to 8 deer each.
All deer were subject to biologial tissue & organ samples to aid in research at the University Of Illinois. Topics of research included but were not limited to testing for CWD, EHD, West Nile Virus,Lyme D and aging of deer.

nodog,

"You got 10 what are you braging about and check your grammar badge at the door, this is a hunting site anything above a grunt is a plus."

I am both Zim and KZim. A while back I had log in problems and was locked out for some reason which later corrected itself. During that time I just gave up and reregistered. Thus I have nearly 500 posts and would have more if the site were more active. As to the grammer. That is simply a matter of opinion. I went to the crapiest HS in Indiana (state that is bottom 10 in education) and am not gifted but I can still spell decent. I would not profile hunters as uneducated.

A bit of data from the Robert Allerton Park Hunt in Piatt County the results show that the hunt is indeed working to reduce the number of deer within the park and surrounding areas, Reducing DV Accidents and the beenfits to the park also include

Volunteering Deer Hunters;
Between March & September 2007 Sixty Four Allerton Archery Deer Hunters Donated a total of 2,752 hours of their time to Allerton Park.
Using figures from the Independent Sector Website the value of the Allerton Hunters Volunteer effort is estimated at roughly $49,500.00.

As for Allerton Park--THAT IS NOT A FOREST PRESERVE---I know this because I grew up hunting Allerton Park, the Sangamon River flood plains and the rest of Piatt County--having grown up in Bement. AGAIN--we are NOT talking about just HUNTING--this is an agenda pushed by politics, not ecology or sport hunting. The restrictions PLACED BY THE BOARD ON THIS PROPOSED HUNTING PROGRAM AS IT IS WRITTEN, AND AS THEY HAVE REPEATEDLY BEEN PROPOSED BY EVERY OTHER FOREST PRESERVE DISTRICT IN ILLINOIS THAT HAS DONE SO, HAVE FAILED BECAUSE THEY DO NOT ALLOW IT TO WORK because it is too restrictive--whether or not you are pro or anti hunting, it is the program you have to dissect, not my opinion.
You guys are arguing apples and oranges--this is an urban Forest Preserve, including designated Nature Preserves and multi-use activity areas. It, as proposed, requires multiple staff on site at all times, preserves to be closed, buffers above and beyond IDNR regulations--IF it was allowed in a form similar to Allerton, Champaign County CONSERVATION DISTRICT, Kankakee State Park, etc. hunting would work--but as the plan is being proposed in the areas it is targeting it will not work. There are a MAXIMUM of 14 hunters in 5 preserves as it stands--even if you break them up into 2 weekend seasons, you can't remove even 10% of the numbers needed to get to the PROPOSED targets/goals...2 seasons means 28 hunters and 18 staff. I am not saying HUNTING DOESN'T WORK FOR ANYTHING, but it won't work AS PROPOSED for this plan. Read the plan or go to the Board meetings--Oh, and make sure the person you are trying to educate doesn't know more about something--say like a hunting program in Allerton Park--before you lay it all out there...one more time for the slow folks...Allerton Park is not a Forest Preserve District.

Fact is the way it is proposed now, sharpshooters will do most of the damage. However, the shotgun hunters that have been voted in are at minimum a foot in the door. If they set a good example, future hunting expansion would be a definite possibliity. I understand the politics involved.

do some reading-reply to fastetti, Zim and nodog
 

AND in regard to the McHenry County and how successful they have been comments--no it hasn't--in comparable areas (and that is being generous). Again, a political agenda that needs to show positive spin gloats about its success--while hiring sharpshooters to come in starting last year....why? Because they were not even close to getting to their targets in urbanized areas.
Again, read this slowly...in areas that have no public access or mulit-usage hunting has worked.
BUT in areas that have adjacent public use or on-site public use, they aren't hunting or are only hunting on a limited basis---and have hired sharpshooters to take out the numbers that they need to get to their targets--EVEN MCHENRY COUNTY.
As for "my staffing numbers"--those are the numbers enumerated in the plan--read the details. And with regard to your "taking quotes from books by other tree-huggers" comments--AGAIN, this is information from the PROPOSED PLAN and the list of documents being used to support it.
The staffing and cost for the hunts--3 staff per site per shift per day--all day for a total of 6 peope per site per day based on 2 shifts--THIS IS A REQUIREMENT OF THE PROPOSED PLAN. As for the cost of $5000/per day per site as operating cost--THIS IS FROM THE BUDGET ATTACHED TO THE PROPOSED PLAN--and that is actually only about HALF of what they are proposing--I cut what looked like fat out of it to me to cut it from $12-15,000 down to $5,000 PER DAY PER SITE---IT IS IN THE PROPOSED PLAN.
Believe me, I want the deer gone as much as anyone--more than most because I work with them every damn day and see the damage they do to habitat, forage, ecosystems, vehicles, endangered species, etc... I was one of the biologists who was pushing hunting--but not at the expense of thousands of dollars that could be used elsewhere if you are restricting hunting to 15 people a year.
So take your tree hugger, bad grammar, min-van comments and stick them. I am not on here to bash hunting, just to inform people of a couple things:
This isn't a plan that has much chance of succeeding
This isn't a plan that has much chance of being approved
This IS a plan that is so restrictive that it cripples itself
This is a plan that has much more to it than is in the outlines, pamphlets or slide shows.
This is not the 1st time a plan like this has been attempted
This would be the only plan like this to ever be approved in an IL Forest Preserve--not the same as a park, conservation district, state lands, etc...
I am just telling you that pretty much every county in the Chicago-metro area has already tried to do this--and failed for the same reasons---all of them tied to the highly restrictive nature of the programs as proposed.
Read the documents--and if you need them rewritten down to a 6th grade level, let me know and I will translate them. there is THE PLAN--about 115 pages, and then there is a list of supporting PDF documents--articles, research and plans from other FOREST PRESERVE DISTRICTS IN URBAN AREAS--about another 200 documents in all--and, unlike you, I HAVE read them all.
Talk to me in a month and I will paste the answers to why the plan is not approved on here for you.
For hopefully the last time--I am NOT anti-hunting, only anti hunting via the proposed plan. And why

I think the hunters would do a good job of being ambassadors and it would open doors and opportunities, BUT as it is proposed, it doesn't stand a chance

In fact, until the committees nixed bow hunting and only narrowly passed ANY attempt to do shotgun hunting, most of the biologists watching this proposal (the local county people from the area are wondering if they will follow with hunting if Will County does it)thought the plan might have legs---but not now--and why waste the time so that 14 hunters can hunt---it works out to about $1200-1300/deer for a hunting program assuming everyone gets 2 deer.
THOSE ARE NOT NUMBERS I CAME UP WITH--THEY ARE WHAT THE BOARD IS REVIEWING
That would be an awful expensive foot in the door--and the money could be spent better elsewhere. It should be proposed that areas with no public access--and there are about 2 dozen of them that would be huntable--be used as part of a recreational hunting program and that the numbers hunters take be looked at to see if management is feasible. Then the management goals and objectives aren't directly linked to any particular form of removal. Instead the program states that the target numbers of hundred and hundreds are the goal and then the plan asks if hunting will achieve them. It was done this way so that management would be the over-arching message so as to deflect a lot of criticism, but all it did was cripple the plan.

I see, good job of explaining your reasons. Sounded as if you werre against hunting not the program presented.

I still say bring on a bounty after the politicians have done their worst. I say the same for the wolf problem else where.

Why shouldn't the hunter get a litle something for doing the hard part? Only reason I can think of is it just never crossed his or her mind. Bout time it does.

Never said they weren't educated HUNTERS (why were here)and some people type faster than their brains go and the letters get put in the wrong order. Some just have big fingers and what wasn't decent about the spelling? You obviously understood what was being said.

I was new here once and paid my dues to the grammar/rude police. Didn't like it then and I don't like it now. Commenting on a persons spelling does what to prove a point in a hunting forum? IMO it proves the commenter has very little to draw from.

If it wasn't for spell check all you could read of this is grunt grunt. :)

Nothing I've ever read on here has ever taken me more than a few minutes to read even by people who spell much worse than I do. All decent in my book so far even by people who don't speak English well.

FWIW I'm married to a grammar nazi whom I love very much and when someone goes off on someone else's grammar and she happens to be looking over my shoulder she just laughs and starts pointing out all the problems with the posts grammar. You do not want her to read yours as even I can see some, but I don't care. Decent to me. To her, after the giggles just groans and says "I can't read anymore". She even looks pained when I ask her to come and read something written here. I do it for fun mostly.

Great information provided by Lady Forge, even FACTUAL charts to go along with it rather than just someone saying what they said they saw. I think it is a great idea what Piatt county is doing with the volunteer work. Id gladly do something like that in Lake County to help out with the parks in order to pay and deer hunt. Heck, I have a bow stand about 60 feet from Forest Preserve land in Lake County right now. Got a decent 10 pt with my bow at 9 yards coming from the FP property. I'd gladly put in some time on that Forest Preserve to help with the day to day operations when I can. Clear brush, help with mowing and clearing drainage, all would be fine by me. Plus, It would almost be like scouting as well.

I'm curious, this new poster coming on here just to ruffle some feathers talks about how there would be "no interest". Again, this is comical that you say this which is why most of your other so called facts aren't even believable. If there is no interest, why is Mchenry County RAISING their fees every year and now doing a point system for those who don't draw areas? The prices have gone up 3 consecutive years and if I am correct almost tripled in the past few years and every year they are getting more and more applicants. I know a few of the points that you are raising are false as well, but Im not getting into a pissing match with someone who is stating things that are not true. Lady Forge already showed that you are incorrect on your facts and I would like to thank her about that. That county should really be a model on how all counties should be run.

I also was told how the proposals for Will County were put together and the numbers that were quoted were biased and made to make it look like this program is a lot more expensive than it was. You get people who don't want to put the program in place and have them influence the numbers and research and you wonder why the numbers are so high? I can tell you price for a registered sharp shooter to come in (which is usually an off duty cop) getting paid time and a half because it is overtime, baiting, the time it takes to get the deer out, testing and then butchering is a lot higher than in probably mentioned is this so called research.

Fe2manz, you are not being beneficial to this sight, providing no good information and pretty much just trying to start fights. You made your point that you are against hunting in FP and we clearly see that but unless you want to add some information that is beneficial to hunting on other posts, please leave the site. Thanks