Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

I thought this was interesting.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...OCAL/603220500

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

It still has a way to go yet , there are a lot of unresolved questions .
I hope their decision sticks , and judging from what I've seen and heard it should . They may end up giving the canned ranches a few years to recoup their investment before closing , and I think a lot of Hoosiers would support that , and it's only fair since their industry got shut down . There was a push from certain "pocket legislators" to compensate them directly , but the legislature shot that down immediately before closing their session .

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

There ought to be a law banning canned hunts all over the United States. If you cant go out in the woods and kill one fair chase then you should not be hunting.

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

High fenced enclosures are NOT my cup of tea either. I have never hunted one, nor do I intend to. My problem with this is simple..........you are telling a man that OWNS his property, and OWNS the high fence, and OWNS the privately purchased animals inside that fence, that he CANNOT do what he wishes(in a humane way)with those animals.

We don`t have to call it hunting, heck we don`t have to call it anything, but what is the difference between deer being killed inside a fence, and beef cattle being raised for slaughter?

This is about personal property rights, any other arguement is founded on mere emotion, nothing more.

OK, fire away!;)

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

Our state took a beating becuase of the Russ Bellar high fenced operation which ended up being shut down. Im sure everyone by now has seen the Jimmy Houston tape where he was at Bellars showing off with a huge buck in the middle of an open field, he actually shot the deer in about a 5 acre pen. Bellar broke just about every state law you can think of,including drugging deer and baiting them. Yes it was his property and his private operation, but he evidently felt he was above the law as well. That made many people angry and the real hunters in this state would rather not be forced to deal with another situation like that at any time in the future. Also, i dont believe high fenced deer killing has ever actually been legal in this state to begin with, you could have deer behind fences and you could raise them but i dont think they were supposed to be killed for profit. Up until the Bellar incident, the law was hardly ever enforced. Some states may see it differently, but i support this state 100 percent in shutting these operation down.

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

BigBuck00, I am familiar with the Russ Bellar case. You are 100% correct that Bellar knowingly violated more than a few state laws. Mr. Bellar got what he deserved.

I do not agree with the state of Indianas laws making hunting privately owned animals inside a high fence illegal, BUT, that is the state law, and those laws should have been followed. If somebody like Bellar does not like or agree with the state law, he should attempt to have them changed. He should not violate them at will.

I saw the video clips with drugged deer that could barely get to their feet being killed as well. I am with you guys here as well, that is pathetic.

The majority of high fence operations do not operate in that fashion, nor do they operate outside of the laws under which they fall.

Russ Bellar sure gave a black eye to people wanting to exersize their private property ownership rights.

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

Kevin I found an article on the net about Rodney Bruce, a guy who has high fences in Corydon. The article said that most places would be able to remain open for a couple more years. Those places disgust me, Like someone stated before if you can't hunt fair chase than do not hunt.

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

It is a loooonnnggg way to the ground from a high horse.

There is not one single method of hunting that is free from ridicule within our very own hunter ranks.

I am amazed that so many of my fellow hunters have enough time to worry about what someone else does on their own time, and on their own dime.

We truly are our own worst enemy.

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

I don't like fenced hunts, but I think that, within limits, its an issue of private property rights, IF people are stocking their own deer. But, I would hope thatthat folks can criticize the extremes in this practice without being too far up on the old high horse.

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

If you ever get the chance to converse with him as I have you'll quickly discover that Mr. Bruce is about as far out there as our old buddy Kathaksung .

The emergency order by our director of DNR shut down all of the preserves other than Rodney's at the close of our most recent legislative session , the director wisely decided to give the legislature time to debate the issues in hopes of a resolution satisfactory to all . Bruce's operation was temporarily exempted due to his pending lawsuit , and a judge has issued a temporary injunction that will allow him to operate until his case is settled . Under the terms of the director's order all of the other pic n' shoots have to close now and no new start ups will be allowed .

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

Just be careful what you wish for when it comes to banning "canned" hunts. The type of canned hunts that have caused the outrage and the rush to pass legislation, I personally distain and would never hunt like that.
But when you say a "canned or high fence" operation a law must be crafted very precisely and narrowly. I can't say about the places run in Indiana but other states places can be 1000's of acres with some ranches running 10,000 or more. The hunts taking place on alomost all of those are fair chase . Let's not forget commercial bird hunting preseves and in a similar vien a club with a semi wild preserveeither. What are those places but a "canned" hunt. A law passed in haste can paint all with one broad stroke.
While the vast majority hunters disapprove of this style of shooting an animal be vigilant ,remember that most of the people in that body that make you laws are for the most part non hunters and in the more populated states you'd probably find quite a few anti's in thier midst. Most bills are past with little knowledge of what the actual wording is except for a few who crafted it.

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

I will be right with you in criticizing any extreme activity, high fence related or not.:)

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

Rodney Bruce's area, (as listed in a news paper) is 117 acres. No mention was made of how many deer are ran on this property, how they are fed, etc. He will not say how many hunters he has at one time nor how he feeds/houses them, nor how large an area each hunter may be able to use. Maybe Motel 6 and you eat at McDonalds. But my belief is that in order to be able to run a profitable killing field there needs to be many large bucks and more than that amount of does you are going to have to place feeders of some nature around the property. With only 117 acres hunting close to a feeder has to be more than just a possability.Areas like this are just to small to be paid for hunting areas. The larger 1,000 or 10,000 or larger areas should not be used for comparison perposes. Unless the land is used for personal hunting then these small areas are to small for paid hunts and should be closed. It is areas like this that give hunting a bad name. This is not guided hunting.

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

I hope it is banned everywhere.

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

next they will try to ban trout fishing. the lakes in my state are stocked with trout and other species in small ponds and streams . they have no wear to go and have to be caught before the summer heat because they aint gonna survive. if your hunting deer on a ranch the size of rode island i doubt if your gonna be hunting a tamed critter. i think we need to be careful on this issue. maybe let the biologists have a look at things . ranchs that are fenced dont mean tamed animals all the time. if you choose to shoot your own food who cares. cows slaughtered on a assembly line or a cock bird released the night before. if its a trophy to you and you can live with it so be it. get over it i say.

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

This is a state by state issue. Hunters in this state as i mentioned before are strongly against canned hunting. This isnt Texas and its very rare to find a thousand or more acres wrapped up by one person. As Indianahick mentioned, one preserve in this state is a whopping 117 acres. The Bellar preserve was roughly 1100 acres i believe, but lets be real here, he fenced off little 5-10 acre pens all over his property for the "hunters" to kill drugged deer. Hunters with no licenses i might add. How tough is it to kill a deer inside a 7 acre pen? Canned hunting in this state is about as far from fair chase as you get. Make no mistake here, the Indiana DNR and lawmakers are acting becuase of the hunting community, it is the hunters of this state who want to see it shut down. It was never actually legal to begin with so im not sure what the fuss is about. These deer pimps should be thankful the state didnt act earlier.

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

The REAL shame is that you guys all hate this type of hunting, yet, to a man, you cannot describe the specific activity to me. Its easy to sit on your butts and hate, just because someone else told you it was so. Some of you are the same kind of guys who once hated compound bows, deer drives, and land leasing.

Take a walk through a LEGIT high fence enclosure with an open mind first. I didnt say to hunt it, as it might not be for you, of course. But, before condemning one, at least have an idea what you are hating. The situation in Indiana is way bigger and deeper than most of you know or understand. The Bellar case was a very odd situation.

As soon as you use terms like feeders, and drugged animals, for example, I know for sure you dont know about these operations. Yes, you only see some guy with no ethics hunting "those easy, tame pets" because some of you need to justify it that way. I see very respected individuals, who have learned what its really about, and they support this industry. I know enough slob hunters in "fairchase" situations that are scum enough to shut down YOUR hunting. Shooting before legal time, bombing turkeys out of roost trees, packing those extra ducks into your hip boots, creative tagging of deer, metal jacket parts in archery kills, running over red fox with sleds, gut shooting bucks to find the next(opening) day, we see it all. Are you for that, too? No? Well, why not, that gives hunting a bad name. Funny how the logic doesnt carry over like that, huh? Look, if you dont care for true canned hunts, animals in cages being slaughtered, join the club, few of us do. But to condemn legit programs is very foolish. Most of the photos, videos, magazine covers, calenders, grunt calls, and info you all have about whitetails comes from behind the fence, whether you wanna believe it or not. I know first hand.

So, like a previous post said well, watch what you wish for. Renting a dog and popping ten pheasants at a farm, or catching big fish in a pond or a stocked stream, or taking any reintroduced species is subject to your death wish. Just like you argue every day with anti hunters, nobody is trying to MAKE you BE a supporter of hunting, or in this casehigh fencehunting, but just choose NOT to, rather than shut it down because you dont happen to like it.

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

What specific activity do you need described to you? I didnt realize canned killing (not hunting) was so much of a science? Are you trying to imply here that Russ Bellar did not drug deer and did not use the aid of feeders? Are you saying preserve owners in general do not use feeders? Remember, using feeders or bait piles is a violation of Indiana law. You claim we dont know what we are talking about when we bring these 2 topics up. Are you suggesting the state and Bellars customers lied in its investigation? The sad part about this is that Russ Bellars preserve was looked upon as the "model preserve" by all the other preserve owners in the state. What kind of a message does that send? Still to this day there are deer farmers trying to tell people that Russ did nothing wrong. Let me guess, you are a deer farmer yourself????????

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

I don't have any reason to dislike deer farming if it is done properly and for the right reasons. By deer, I am talking about fallow deer or other non native species that will be used as livestockfor consumption or breeding. I view native deer species as wild creatures that shouldn't be confined and domesticated. Slaughter of fallow deer should be done the same way as livestock. Mixing hunting into the equation is what bothers me. If a beef farmer wants to slaughter a steer then he does it but rarely will he advertise to hunters that they can come to his farm for a fee and shoot his cow. Because the livestock in question is a deer then it has appeal to people looking for a trophy or want to experience killing a deer without actually hunting. I feel this action is detrimental to the whole hunting and fair chase concept and that is why I don't like canned hunting. Most states promote their own hunting and receive money from the sportsmen who buy licenses and vacation there. Most states wanttheir hunting to be looked upon as excellent and having high standards. Canned hunting usually doesn't sit right with true sportsmen. Fair chase means the animal has a chance to live another day. Canned hunting is guaranteed killing for money and I don't think that perception is good for our sport.

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

Mr. Yox, you are not going to talk sense to people who have a narrow minded....it is all about me....mindset.

You are correct, the vast majority of these folks screaming to have high fenced preserves made illegal, have little or no first hand knowledge of what these places are like. I have heard for the second time now that Russ Bellars place was a model of how these places should be........I would like to know just who had that opinion?

It still comes down to private property rights. Hey, you got a field you want to make into a soccer field, that is your right. Personally, I think soccr is a sissy game, that teaches our children the wrong thing about life. I think that if God did NOT want us to use our arms, he would have left them off..........but I sure will not attempt to deny you the right of having a soccer field on YOUR land.

As far as th negative outlook on our hunting heritage goes....these places would not even be a blip on the radar screen if were not for the ethics police type hunters that cry about them.

Just because hunting/killing inside of a fence is not your cup of tea, that does not give you the right to force your views on others.

There are no legitimate arguements for stopping a private landowner from erecting a fence and stocking that fenced in area with privately owned animals, there are only selfish, uneducated reasons.

You don`t have to call these places "hunting", in fact, you don`t have to call them anything. If you do not like it, do NOT participate in it. It is that simple.

And before some of you form your reply....I have NEVER hunted inside a high fence.

I have no plans of EVER hunting in a high fence.

I do not own, or work for, in any way, a high fence hunting preserve.

I simply do not go around thinking that killing privately owned animals by the owner of said animals, whether they are cows, hogs, sheep, deer, elk, etc. is any of my business.

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

A couple of you are yelling that us here in Indiana do not know what we are talking about in wanting the hunting on these places stopped as it is being done. As for Bellers he is exalted by other high fence people here. Rodney Bruce being one of the most outspoken followers, Rodney Brucealso sell elk hunts. Elk are considered exotics here. Exotics are Illeagle to hunt here. No argument it is illeagle.
We have asked them how they feed their animals, no one will say. It has been asked if they have kept an area just for feeding, no awnser. If they let their animals range their total farms in short order they are all going to starve to death with out feeders.
If they want to raise deer and sell deer pee, etc to makers of scents that is just fine with me, if they want to slaughter and sell meat I have no problem. As for your land being your own personal property and doing what you wish, just build an out house or start up a hazardous waste dump, build a building without getting your proper permits. It is yours as long as you stay within the boundries of the law.

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

You are asking him what they feed their animals, or how they feed their animals, and they won`t say? Maybe because it is none of your business.

And while we are on this topic, exactly WHO is this "we" that you are refering to here?

Now you are comparing a high fence hunting preserve to a hazardous waste landfill?

I have agreed all along that even though I find Indiana`s laws regarding these types of establishments wrong....they ARE the law of the state, so Russ Bellar was wrong, and got what he deserved.

You have some guy named Rodney Bruce saying that Bellars was a "showcase" for high fence......that is just one man`s opinion.

BTW, I have yet to hear anybody yell at you.;)

Oh, one more thing....if you would have no problem with a high fence owner raising these animals for pee, or to slaughter them for meat, why would you possibly care if they let someone come in and kill the critter themselves?

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

I thought i mentioned this in the original post, Bellars place was looked upon as a model preserve by every preserve owner in this state. And you have to remember that there isnt many of these operations in the state to begin with, it's a close knit group. Bellar was the man according to these folks, still to this day he is inoccent if you listen to them. It's a properry issue, until you start drugging deer, shooting deer over feeders, allowing hunters to take over their limit of bucks, shoot deer without tags, and the 25 other violations that Bellar had. Since it was actually never declared legal to begin with, Mr. Bellar more then likely ruined it for the entire bunch. I'd like to see the state pull a few more raids myself.

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

Off the subject. I never liked soccer until my daughter started playing years back. Believe me on a competitive level it isn't a sissy game.
I played organized football for 14 years and coached for a few years on the high school level. I have never seen as many broken ankles and legs and knee injuries as I've witnessed as in soccer.

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

bigbuck00, I agree 100%, Bellar obviously did things that he KNEW were direct violations of state law. For any of the other high fence owners to condone that is not a good move. I have stated before that I have never hunted inside a high fence, and that is true. I also said that I have no financial ties to a hugh fence hunting preserve, that is true as well.

I do have a fair amount of experience with high fence operations though. There is no reason to have to drug an animal for a client to shoot it. If I were to guess, and this is only a guess......a common practice among shooting preserves like this is to sell a hunt for a size class buck they do not even have. After they make the arrangements for the hunt, they shop around and purchase the right sized animal. Of course whitetails are so high strung that they need to be completely knocked out to be transported. I am guessing that they took delivery on an animal the same day as the hunt was to occur, and the deer was still under the influence of the tranquilizer.

Even though I personally do not have the desire to hunt inside a high fence, I can honestly tell you that it does not take a very big area for whitetails to hide from you for days on end. If you wanted to bowhunt insid a high fence, you could hunt a 100 acre pen where the deer were never bottle fed as fawns for days without killing a deer.

Regardless of my opinion on whether Indiana residents should be allowed to operate a hunting preserve 7 days a week, 365 days a year, without a hunting license.......the state law makes this illegal. The law might be wrong IMO, but it is the law, and it should be adhered to.

Ruddyduck, I know that when soccer is played at a higher level, it is an extremely tough sport. My problem with soccer stems fom the fact that I am old enough to have seen the beginnings of soccers popularity in this country. Those soccer leagues popped up everywhere, and ruined every baseball outfield we had in our area. Plus, at the younger ages it was a feel good sport. Winning was not important, and everybody got to play an equal amount of time regardless of their skill level. I have always had a problem with that mindset. It might be OK for 6-10 year olds, but any older than that and you are teaching kids a bad life lesson. In real life, there are winners and losers. If you are not doing very good, you need to know it, and practice to be better. In real life, your report card is called a paycheck. Even though I have to grudgingly admit that soccer can be a super tough game, I still don`t see why I cannot pick that dang ball up and throw it!!;)

One last thing for Indianahick.......hey man, I am sorry if my post came accross like I was yelling, or mad about this subject. I do disagree with the legality of the subject, but I do believe operations like this should be held to strict standards. We may disagree on this subject, but we are both passionate about the outdoors and hunting. We are on the same side here, we just don`t agree on this particular deal.:)

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

Bigbuck and others, a couple of things...first off, Bellars place is no model for what is done across the country, the big picture. Yes, maybe in your part of the world, Indiana specifically, but then again, your DNR and governor has your state so screwed up, the enclosures ought to be the least of your worries. Also, you must understand thatmany of ushave also been talking about enclosure hunts in a broader perspective and not just Indiana in particular, in other posts like this. The hatred for all hunts that folksdont participate in has got to stop, or all hunting will stop. You should see the crossbow wars here in NY state. Remember, NY isnt all David Letterman and concrete, we take 200,000 deer a year here. Simply put, there is way more at stake than many of you realize, and unfortunately this isnt exactly an open audience wanting to learn anything from those of us who know. Im not going to bounce this back and forth any further with you guys, its obvious what we are dealing with here. But I will answer honestly a few of your questions, in the interest of being fair.

Most large enclosures have herd managers and veterinarian/nutritionists either on staff or at least on hand. Plots as well as agriculture are done inside. Usually a seperate breeding facility is set up to ensure very selective breeding, the key to what they have and most of you dont have. Supplemental feed is offered free choice and at all times at open feeders (much the same as most of you all do for supplements, by the way) not held back and then fed before the slaughter, as some wish to think. Yes, I am a deer farmer, and no, I do not offer hunts. Even urine and other usage deer farms must sooner or later have an end usage for the animals. Based on the large number of animals used in this manner proves to ANY REASONABLE person that this is a much sought after endeavor. So, whether they cry like girls later after having been involved in a less than upstanding situation or not, theres a growing number of good folks who simply do not feel like some of you do about this type of activity. As many times as Ive raised the point over the last year in this forum, nobody has yet to challenge me on my points...the end to this type of hunting also will suck up YOUR type, be it stocked birds, stocked fish, reintroduced species, whatever. In the eyes of those who truly hate ALL of us, its the same damned thing. To argue with me is foolish, its already there. Indiana, you are being foolish to label all of this as BELLAR, but regardless, protect your hunting priviledges outside where YOU hunt first, as thats being attacked too. Good luck to you all.

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

It's easy to chastise us for being against them when you're not the one living with them , we despise them and don't want them here and that's all anyone else needs to take into account . It was a mistake for them to set up here in the first place and the only thing that's really happening is that the mistake is being rectified . When the dust settles the courts and the Legislature will most likely give them a few years to recoup their investment before banishing them , after that you can have them if they mean so much to you , just tell us where to send them .

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

SHUT THEM DOWN, IT IS NOT A FAIR CHASE HUNT. KINDA LIKE FISHING IN A POOL FOR RECORD BASS>

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

kevin1 and TurkeyStalker, you despise them so you want them gone. What other types of hunting related activities would you like to do away with also?

Let me name a few hunting methods that are implemented in various parts of the country, while not used in other areas....

Driving of deer to the guns
Running deer with dogs
Treestand hunting with gun or bow
Stalking
Using an Atlatl( a huge spear you stick a deer with)
Bowhunting with a crossbow
Baiting deer
Food plots
Hunting deer with ANY weapon during the rut


Name which of these you would like to see made illegal as well.

High fenced preserves do not hurt you in any way. I am sitting here as calm as can be, so don`t think I am yelling or screaming when I tell you that your attitude is nonsensicle, selfish, and extremely narrow minded.

Running a high fence OUTSIDE of the state law is wrong, evn if the states law is not well thought out. Either lobby to have the law changed, or move to a state where it is legal.

People who want to force their will, their thoughts, their ethical views on everybody else have been around since longer than any of us by a longshot. It was wrong and ugly 200 years ago, and it is no different today.

So, how about that list.....which other methods of killing a deer would you like to abolish? Maybe you can help divide sportsmen even more.

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

Big country, Bill. 1 at 61 I am no fan of soccer, to me it is trying to bring europian ways into the United States. I also disagree with people teaching kids that losing does not matter, it does and unfortunatly they will find that out once the get to the labor arena.

As for the Hazardous waste dump that was in referance to someone saying in it is their property they can do what they want. IE. an example of how you can not do as you please. No comparison other than the leagality issue. Dig it?

As for high fenced deer farming like I said let them sell the urine, conduct school toors, nature hikes. High fenced hunting is in a gray area here. Neither leagle or illeagle as long as no other laws are broken. Feeders and salt blocks in and near hunting areas are illeagle, feed dumped on the ground is illeagle. Running deer with dogs is illeagle, so is baiting. Atlati is leagle (I beleive) and I have read about it and am amazed at the distances that are achieved.

For the person that asked about what I would do if I seen someone gut shoot a deer the night befor gun opener so that they could find a fresh kill and take it home. It is simple I would (have) call the 800 tip line and say where I seen it happen. I have talked to CO's about people that have put out salt blocks to attract deer. Do I feel bad if these people were ticketed or lost their hunting privilages? NO!!

Bill is it my business how the feed their animals? Probably not but if they are breaking the law with feeders out in their hunting area why not say?
You said something about hunting deer in a hundred acre area. The whole farm we are talking about is 117. Not the wilderness in Michigan. I drove by what I believe to be the wilderness when my son worked in Detroit. There is no comparrison.

What is being done on these smaller deer farms (less than 1500 acres) is not hunting it is killing. What I'am mainly against is overstocking and calling it hunting.

As for crossbows, I would not mind if they were leaglized for everyone. There is a cocking device out there that I would like to see leagleized for handicapped hunters. The Draw Lock??

Oh yeah the ones trying to force their ways on others is the high fenced operators. If you love your deer chasing dog hunt him where it is leagle. Cause if I see you I will take your plates and call the DNR. As it is not leagle.

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

Goodness, thought we lived in the good ole USA where a guy could be a slob hunter if he wants too.

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

Indianahick, not sure where you came up with the name Bill? Nevertheless, how is a high fence operator exercising of his private property rights forcing anything on you, or anybody else? You are not obligated to partake in any activity that may be available there.

I missed the comment about someone gut shooting a deer the night before the opener. You would have a tough time turning him in, because if I witnessed that, I would spend as much of my time, and my money, as it would take to insure that person never hunted again, and lost everything that the law would possibly allow.

I understand that in your opinion, a 117 acre pen is NOT hunting. My reply to that is........it does NOT have to be hunting in your opinion. It does NOT have to be hunting in anyones opinion. I realize that the state of Indiana frowns on this.....Indiana is WRONG. Private property rights obviously means nothing in your state. It is not like a high fence operation is a meth lab, making illegal drugs. A high fence operation raises privately owned animals to be killed. Just like a rancher raises beef cattle.

Also, I never said I love my deer being chased by dogs. I have never hunted deer with dogs. I have no desire to ever hunt deer with dogs. I merely pointed out that in different areas of the country there are different ways to hunt deer. People out west think bowhunting from a treestand is like a vulture waiting for something to die. People from the northeast cannot imagine what fun it would be to hunt deer with dogs. I could go on and on, but you get the point.

You and I do not have to want to hunt inside a high fence, but I cannot bring myself to tell another man what to do, or not do, on his own land when it brings me, you, or anybody else, any harm.

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

Out of curiousity, who would be the bigger slob.............

1. A guy that kills an animal at a legitimate, legally run high fence operation.

2. A guy that goes to camp for the opener of gun season, goes hunting while hungover, or worse yet, drunk, and does not obey game laws.

Which one of these two would be the "slob hunter"?

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

Personally I would say both are equal and the same. And according to rumer there was someone that did both on camara. Oh yeah he also had no license. Just out of interest what is your opinion of this person?

A lot of hunting falls under personal ethics. Mine says that hunting small penned lots is not right and should not be condowned. Sorry about any spelling errors.

You have my feelings and I am done.

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

I'm not gonna bother getting into a pissin' contest with you BC , laws are made based on the wants or needs of the citizens of the state , and the vast majority (85%) of Hoosiers consider those places repulsive abbatoirs and want them gone . If the deer pimps had tried to set up openly instead of sneaking in under the radar they would have been told to go somewhere else before they invested their money . There are plenty of people in any state who are against something , and if enough of them get together and make themselves heard then what they want happens . It's called democracy .

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

[quote][Personally I would say both are equal and the same/quote]

You actually feel that a person that chooses to kill an animal inside a LEGALLY run high fence is the same as a game law violator who hunts while hung over, or drunk? I don`t think that is what you really mean.

From what I understand, there were numerous violations that occured at Rus Bellars place. As I stated before, Bellar operated outside of Indiana state law, in fact some of the things done there were violations of state laws that allow high fence hunting, so justice was done regarding Bellars operation.

You SHOULD NOT need a license to hunt privately owned animals inside of a privately owned high fence. The idea ofneeding a license to do so is absurd.

If you mean what is my opinion of a person who would hunt drunk.......I loath people who get intoxicated, whether they are hunting, mowing the lawn, or watching a football game. Alcoholism is a weakness. There are not many things more pathetic than having to listen to someone who is drunk.

I agree with you 100%.

OK, you have already stated that a 117 acre pen is NOT big enough for high fence hunting. What exact number would you consider OK? What if your size limit did not fit with someone elses minimum size limit?

What minimum size limit would you think is fair for a slaughterhouse that butchers hogs? They are privately owned animals, being killed on privately owned land too.

Indianahick, you and I do NOT agree on the topic of high fence hunting. We are BOTH sportsmen, and I have no doubt we both share the same passion for hunting, and we are both ethical, law abiding hunters. I simply do not believe that the state of Indiana is correct when they deny a property owner their right to have a business that does NOT hurt anyone if it is run properly. Put regulations on it like any other business, but to deny that right is a socialist concept.

Thank you for the civil debate, and I wish you good luck this coming season.:)

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

The hunter that was supposidly under the influance at bellors posing for his picture was Jimmy Houstan. I say supposidly because my knowledge is totally hearsay.

License in Indiana are needed to transport and have processed as well as hunt. You can kill a deer on a farm without a license under the depradation permit, but you can not remove it from the property.

What would I consider a large enough area for high fence hunting. One that is large enough for free roaming with out being cut up into smaller fenced areas. Let see 15-20,000 acres for starters. After that feeders, salt blocks, baiting would fall under state law. Since it is illeagle to do all 3 here then my ethics which comes from where I live and began hunting does not care for it. If you use feeders then I would like to see them used only between 10pm and 3am. Total darkness, no hunting with in say 500 yards (due to high power rifles; Yeah I know that there are those out there that would take that shot also).

As I recall someone out there made a remark about our governer and the dnr. I thought that under his name he said that he was from new york. If I was from a state that elected Hillary Clinton and Charles Schumer to the congress I would not jibe anyone elses government.

And yes I would equate a person that hunts places like bellars to criminal slob hunters. Bothare short of ethics. Now there is one and only one way I would condone shooting an animal out of season on purpose. That is if he was out of a job due to plant closure and needed it to feed his family.

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

.

?????????:eek:

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

Indianahick, yep, that was me in NY. No, I didnt vote those two liberal loosers in, either. I believe they just formed here, you know, like mold. As for your DNR, its on record. Youll see. Tell me you dont know all about the governor and his foolish proposals on ALL hunting along with the enclosure issues? How about the Lacy Act ruling? See, like I said earlier, you guys really ought to know what youre talking about first. Oh by the way, how many 15-20,000 acre free range hunting are you doing in Indiana? Yet thats the acreage needed for enclosures? Seems to me if you climb 12 foot up a tree with a bow, you have a thirty yard shot, no matter how big the country around you is. Indianahick, while we will never agree even on principle, which is my point, and thats sad...at least you have been a gentleman throughout this exchange. Id shake your hand if we were face to face. I hope your deer season is always successful for you.

RE: Law banning "canned" hunts in Indiana...
 

Bill, i would agree Bellar isnt the way it works in other areas. But we are speaking about Indiana. Like i said before, some states may want them and thats fine, but in this state we dont. Bellars isnt a model for other parts of the country i would agree, but unfortunately here in Indiana it was. It gave the hunting community a black eye for many people to see. It wasnt just the fact that he operated a high hunting operation, it was that he knowlingly violated almost 30 game laws on top of it. Simply put the man was a CROOK. The fact that preserve owners in this state still have his back is disgusting. Indianahick, preseve owners wont answer questions becuase they dont have to. It's just like Bellar, they feel the law doesnt apply because it's their property. The only way to find out the facts is to pull more stings. Send an undercover officer in there as a customer. Bruce's place apparently had a group of dead deer laying around missing only the heads and capes. According to him they were killed by dogs. Possible i suppose, but again, no way of knowing for sure.

Bill, im not a big fan of our gov. But i do believe a deer farmer in this state actually helped contribute to his campaign. He also has tried to find a compromise for these preserves. Being a deer farmer yourself, i would have figured you would have liked that. As for the DNR, i dont like a lot of things they do either, but hey, my fishing and my hunting is pretty good and thats all that matters. This state is producing record book bucks at an incredible rate right now.