Ruddyduck

If this guy Bellar broke the law throw the book at him. If he did something that was an outrage write a law very narrow in scope that adresses those particular issues.
Laws passed in haste are bad laws. I think many don't look at the big picture. Bird hunting preserves are "canned " hunts too.The pheasant stocking program could be interpeted as "canned" also by anti's and dragged into a court. Don't think it wouldn't happen once the openning presents itself.
The vast majority won't and will never hunt places like you describe this guy Bellar runs. But be careful what you wish for.

Big Country

bigbuck00, you are purposely twisting facts to make an emotion filled point.

You did NOT see any drugged deer in the Jimmy Houston video clip.

You did see in a seperate clip where they were propping up a deer that was sick, so that another individual could shoot it on tape. I doubt that ANYBODY agrees with attempting to deceive in such fashion. We have no way to prove one way or another whether that deer was drugged, or sick.

As Bill Yox pointed out already, and I can back him up on this......tranquilizing whitetailed deer is an extremely risky proposition, no matter how much experience you have at it, you will lose an animal more often than you want to.

Some of these high and mighty personal ethics posts are funny. It is a long way to fall from that big white charger you are riding.

BTW, serioushunter1, I may have been a little misleading, and not intentionally, but the cae in PA where the guy cut a high fence, he stole a deer while he was at it.

Even if he did not steal a deer, the vandalism would just be the criminal charge. If you let my 195" typical buck out of the pen, I will see you in civil court, and I will win.

Looks like I have to go back in the hospital due to some post surgery complications, so you guys fight nice until I return......

bigcountry

Actually there is several bigcountry's in different forms. I am the real mccoy originaland the others just want to be me. No I didn't play basketball.

My question for some is why do you care if a deer was drugged. Why do you care if a person wants to be a slob? Why would you worry about what another is doing? If its seriously causing harm to the image of the sport thats one thing, but the only ones causeing the harm in that case was actual hunters on a high horse.

Everybody's got to find thier own thing. And quit worrying about what others are shooting onweather its too much gun or not enough, and worrying about thier methods, and everything else.

bigbuckOO

What fact did i get wrong BigCountry? Where in any of these posts did i mention anythign about Jimmy Houston??? Whether or not Jimmy Houston shot a drugged deer i do not know, but i do know that Bellar and his employees did drug deer. It's on record. Again, did these investigators and Bellars former employees lie??? Bellar pleaded guilty to it for crying out loud and yet im twisting the facts??? The facts are, in Indiana, you follow state laws, regardless if you are a preserve owner or not. This is what preserve owners dont like.

Ruddyduck, as i just mentioned, the law was already written before Bellar did what he did. He knew the law and he simply refused to follow it. Just do a little search on Russell Bellar and find about the 30+ state game laws he broke. Again, the issue here is that preserve owners are mad becuase Indiana doesnt see these animals as livestock. The preserve owners must follow state laws and they cant stand it. Which is why Bellar did drug deer, did allow for customers to shoot well over the bag limit, did bait deer, let unlicensed hunters hunt and so forth. Another thing is that there was actually no law saying canned hunts was a legal activity in this state. The law was pretty grey in that area.

As for bird preserves, Bellars buddies already have complained about that and the ban that was passed does not include bird preserves, only whitetails and exotic mammals. And last i looked, whitetails dont have wings and cant fly away, especially inside a 5 acre pen.

Bill Yox

Bigbuck, stop and think aboutyour accusations toward me for a sec...maybe there IS a reason why I know so much about this case, whether its next door to you, or whatever. You twist words, I dont. I didnt say those things did not happen at Bellars place. I said they dont happen everywhere, and all other high fence operations should not be compared nor judged based on his. Hey, I know a guy who gut shot a deer last year, because he couldnt get a better shot, but the arrow made it bleed long enough for him to eventually find it anyway. So, bigbuck, thats how YOU hunt too, correct? Well, it MUST be, using YOUR logic. No? Well what the hell, welcome back to earth! Sucks to be judged based on the actions of one wrongdoer, huh? No, we DO NOT condone what Bellar did. But, he was also accused of many things that were not done, and other claims that, while not illegal, could impact the rest of us doing things ethically and legally. I already mentioned the Lacy Act. Theres tons of things going on. I DO know what Im talking about. People operating high fence hunts in your state only hoped that the action involved in Bellars case might open eyes to the need for law and regs concerning these types of hunts. I also didnt call you a liar. I also read all the crap youll refer to as links. I also know MY info is sound. In fact, Ive had it trying to get through to folks like you. Its no use. I guess you need to see it as you do. No need to address me here, Im through here.

bigbuckOO

Bill, first off i didnt twist anything around. How many times have i said to you this is an Indiana issue? Im not interested in shutting you down over there in New York. Im only interested in the state i live and hunt. We saw what Bellar did here, we know how the preserve owners in this state called him the "messiah", and we know how they still continue to support him and blame the state of Indiana as being "unfair". You know as well as i do what they want to achieve. They want to be like other states and not have to live under the state game laws.

Lets be honest here, many people do not blame him for what he did becuase in other states people may do whatever they wish with their privately owned animals. Like I said, preserve owners arent interested in following laws, there only interetsed in seeing how far they can bend them. Im speaking about Indiana here, no place else. In a lot of places, what Bellar did wouldnt even be a crime. Im sorry the laws are what they are.

bigbuckOO

I care if a deer was drugged becuase in the state of Indiana it is a crime to drug deer. Just like it's a crime to hunt without a license or shoot deer from the roads. I pay roughly 70 bucks a year in deer tags to be able to hunt. If i see someone do something illegally im going to report it.

Big Country

BigBuck00, I understand that the violations you listed above are indeed illegal in the state of Indiana. I agree, and have agreed since this arguement began that Bellar should be held responsible for every single violation he commited. Being a resident of Indiana, and running a business in Indiana, he should know, and follow the states laws.

Where my problem with your logic comes in is this........WHY should the owner of privately owned animals need to buy a license that allows you to kill STATE owned animals to kill his PRIVATELY owned animals? Surely you agree that this is a tad bit ridiculous.

If this should be the law, why are ranchers or slaughter houses permitted to kill beeves without using a state hunting license tag?

Also, I cannot disagree with you about other high fence owners in Indiana holding Bellars operation in high regard. I do NOT know these other owners. I can say this......Bellar has been charged with several violations that would be illegal in any state that I am aware of, so why these other operators of high fence would put him on a pedastal is beyond me.

When you say it is illegal to drug a deer in Indiana......do you mean it is illegal to drug one for the purpose of making it easier to hunt/kill? Or do you mean it is illegal to drug it ever?

If Indiana makes it a violation to drug a whitetail for ANY reason ever.....then Indiana better completely outlaw high fences for any purpose. If you cannot inoculate your animals, then you are asking for serious problems. Whitetails are not like elk, you must put them down to care for them.

I really think the big sticking point here is that we are not on the same page regarding the fair chase aspect of this issue. High fence hunting is NOT fair chase hunting, period!

It does not have to be. Animals killed inside the confines of a high fence are not eligible for P&Y, or B&C record books, as they should not be.

High fence hunting is NOT what most hunters want to do, and I fall in this category myself......never did it, and don`t care to.

But, there are several reasons why some people like to participate in a hunt like this.......no time in their life to hunt the conventional way is one.

Disabled person, maybe in a wheelchair is another.

Maybe someone on deaths doorstep, with one last wish?

Or maybe it is a completely healthy individual with a lot of years ahead of him that just WANTS to do a hunt like this.

I agree that high fence operations should have strict rules about animal densitys, health of animals, etc., etc., etc.

Mr. Yox will tell you, and I do not know Bill Yox that I am aware of......any legitimate high fence operator, whether he is raising animals for hunting, urine, semen, or whatever, does NOT want to overcrowd his animals. He does NOT want to let his animals go unattended or uncared for. And he certainly does NOT want to include any stated owned animals to be in his fences to innerbreed with his privately purchased animals.

Most high fence operations I am aware of far exceeds any laws regarding their operation in the state they have their business in.

There is simply too much money invested to treat the animals otherwise.

Indianahick

Slaughter houses for beef, sheep, hogs are state regulated and must follow state laws.Only live animals may be taken to aslaughter house in Indiana. If your animal is dead you can not take it to a slaughter house/ processing plant. You can not kill a cow and take it to the slaughter house. Better have a good knife and meat grinder.

Hunting licenses come with transpotation tags, if you want to tie your animal up to a post and kill it you still need a tag to take it to a processing plant where the animal is give an identification tag that stays with the animal thru processing and it is inspected for disease. If it is anyway tainted it is destroyed and you are informed. All deer get inspected.

Drugging animals for hunting purposes is illeagle, Bellars did it.

Even if I was at deaths doorstep I would not hunt a small penned animal.

And yes most of us only get to hunt in 3-5 or less acre area each time we hunt but our animals are not penned up in this area, wemust rely upon the whim of nature.

Big Country

And NOT one single thing you just said is an answer to the questions a I stated them.[&:]