Big Bore Debate
 

Which big bore is best, .45-70 Gov, .444 Marlin or .450 Marlin?

I will not be reloading so I can only buy factory ammo. Does that info change things. I want to purchase one of these in a lever action marlin guide gun.

Tom

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

I guess I have a hard time understanding what people means by "best". Best for what?

I just got a 45-70 today. Plan on haveing two rounds. One hotrodded up 2000 fps and one your typical 20KPSI load.

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

Hi Stat

I'd say go with the .45-70. You can find loads as hot (Garrett, Cor-Bon) as the .450, but also less punishing (Remington) rounds for practice. The .450 has limited factory loads. Don't buy any of that bulk .45-70 junk from Cabelas.

Good luck,
CE

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

I asked this same question about a year ago, and the info I got was, IF you plan on reloading the 45-70 is the better choice to achieve the best performance. But since you arent, the .450 has better factory loads. The reason for this is, the manufacturers of over the shelf ammo, have to take into account that someone may be buying their bullets, for a very old gun not able of handling alot of pressure.

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

And guess what???? you wont even use the darn thing!!!!!! It will sit in your safe with all the rest of your guns, and come hunting season, youll carry the same ol slug gun you do every year. [:@][:@] That is why I think you should sell it to ..............ME!!!!!!!!:D You should start doing what I do. During rifle season, I carry a different gun each day, I have enough different ones to make it through almost all 13 days of MD rifle season.

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

Best? Ans. = 45/70. The 444Marlin is good, but suffers from lack of good bullets in factory loads. The 450Marlin is okay, but IMO not as flexible as the old 45/70Gov.
I'd skip the guide model, and get the 1895 with 22" barrel. IMO, the 18" barrel of the guide model is too short.
Take the full size gun with pistol grip stock. If it were me, I'd have a 'smith cut/recrown
the barrel to 20", and remount the front sight. Order a replacement front bead from
Williams, a white bead. Replace the rear sight, also from Williams, using a shallow V blade. It's a very fast and accurate combo. For a scope, check out a Weaver 1-3x.
It's inexpensive, but a great scope for the 45/70, and the ranges it's normally used at.

You can find a good selection of ammo at MidwayUSA. Following are some links for
the items mentioned.
Links:

MidwayUSA: http://www.midwayusa.com/

Scopes: http://www.riflescopes.com/store/default.asp

Williams: http://www.williamsgunsight.com/

ps: Just checked Midway, and the Weaver 1-3x scope is on sale for $129.99 :D

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

Mossy, you got that right! For a few times and then a good conversation
piece!

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

Man, I am on a roll with my sluggun. Only thing I have killed deer with (besides ML) in 2 years or more. I think it killed 4 or 5 last year, and same year before last. If I stop carrying it now, bad luck will happen. Don't mess with a streak. They don't come by very often. :D

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

I have a .450 Marlin and love it, but either the 45/70 or .450 will do anything you need. I use mine for hog hunting and when you shoot one w/ a .450 they don't go far.

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

Jeffs, they don't go far with a .35Rem either!

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

Rebel Hog,

I have a .35 Remington as well, and everybody always grabs one of my guns when they go out instead of their own. Unforunately I can't shoot right now because I have a broken right arm so everybody fights over who gets my guns now. I told them as soon as my arm heals I'm taking my guns back!

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

The info I am getting here is making me feel better about the .45-70. I like to shoot my guns and the info that Colorado provided was good. Knowing that there is some plinking ammo out there is a good thing. I checked the price on .45-70 ammo and it was between $21 and $23 per box. The most expensive ammo I have ever purchased was about $13 per box. So it is a bit of a jump.

Thanks for the info and keep it coming.

Also where is OldElk. I half expected him to come in here and tell us something about the bigbores to get the folks around here a bit frisky. lol.

Tom

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

Think he got tired of the same scene and taking a vacation from the internet.

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

The 45-70 all the way. They are all good calbers however. I have a small herd of 45-70's.

Mossy33. I know what you mean. I can't imagine dragging the same old rifle out two days in a row for deer season. I Mean they need a rest too. And besides I can't let the wife see dust on a rifle, she might think that I don't need it.:D I thought I was bad when I harvested eight mule deer last fall and only used three different rifles. I have never shot one with a slug gun though. I have carried them for back-up in bear country but never hunted deer with one.


BC What did you get for a 45-70? I have had the Ruger, Marlin, Sharps and NEF's.

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

I hope I got a good deal. Its a 1895SS (not stainless) 20" barrel Marlin. He said it was made in 91, and looked to be in wonderful condition. I paid 300 for it.

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

Hi bigcountry,

That's a nice looking .45-70. I just picked up a new G2 Contender chambered for .45-70. I found it at the local Gander Mountain for $340. Can't wait to get it scoped and take it to the range.

Dave

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

BC,
Nice. Looks like you got some great lumber too. I bought on like that back in 91 or 92, seems like I paid about 500.00 for it. I think you got a good deal.

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

Well see if I got a good deal on it. I did all the checks I could looking at the bore, and pushing a cleaning Rod/patch down. Felt smooth. After the transaction, I asked why he was selling so cheap and he said, when he wants to sell something, he prices it to sell. I hope so.

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

BC Nice looking rifle. Can't beat the Marlin. Good Price as well.
AK, Have not heard from you for quite a while. Must be keeping busy.:D

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

James data is all over the place on this gun. Whats a good hotrod load for 300-350gr jacket load? Thinking H4198. What about a nice 405gr combo? Ever shoot Laser Cast? Do they need a gascheck?

Thanks

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

looks like junk to me, prolly would best be used as an anchor!!! I think I see some rust from here..........looks like the sight is bent (not that you'll hit anything with it anyway) the throat looks like its fried, and the rifling has pits on it........so wanna sell it????:D

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

No Mossy, but you look like you need a good 336C for a good price. I got one for ya.

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

I confess I am partial to the 45 70 both for the history of it, its popularity, and the fact that you can buy loads up to dangerous game class if you feel the need. For the Marlin, it is possible for the wrong meplat to cause a "spontaneous dissassembly" if the edge of the meplat is contacting the primer of the following round while in the postion just prior to the chamber. That is because it is somewhat canted. Thus, I would check with the manufacturer to make sure that it works. I skip that risk as I am down to a Ruger #1 in the grandaddy.

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

Does anyone know if a Marlin 1895G 45-70 can handle 35KPSI loads? Like to try my hand at a 300gr partition load with H4198 kicking over 2000fps. The manuals are not clear. Speer says 28K is safe, Nosler is totally unclear, Rifle mag had an article saying any gun post 72 Marlin will handle well over 40KPSI.

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

Are there any disadvantages of the 18.5" barrel on the Marlin Guide gun. Is it too short?

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

Probably slow down your MV by up to 200fps maybe.

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

now heres the funny part, I checked this morning with a friend of mine that can order guns, he said that the marlin with the 20" barrel is $8 cheaper than the 18" but the one with the 20" barrel does not have the "G" behind the 1895 so I guess its not a guide gun??? I dont think you can get a guide gun with a 20" barrel. And yes 200 fps is about what I was thinking on the extra 2" Big boy

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

The Hornady Manual states that 45-70 loads for the Marlin are held to 40,000 lbs which is the same max pressure as the 444 Marlin. The Sierra Manual lists the Marlin with the Ruger No. l and 3 and the converted mausers. Hornady has always held that the Marlin action is safe to 40000.

The Guide gun would loose some velocity but its really not an issue at the ranges that it is intended to be used. Max penetration of the big cast bullets is attained at from 1600-1800 fps. Bullets beyond those speeds began to loose penetration. This was found in Corbons study with cast bullets. I should say either corbon or Garrets study I don't recall which. I have used the 45-70 a lot over the last 30 years.

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

James, since this is microgroove, should I have any trouble shooting cast at 1600fps? Do you have a nice 1600-1800fps 405gr load? Thinking Beartooth 405gr or Laser Cast but think laser cast are very soft.

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

Don't that 4570 have the trajuctory of a .22lr ?

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

What? Look it up. You have the same access to the internet data that we do.:D

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

I figured all you smart people hein could tell me if that's true or not

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

Ok, go to www.remington.com and go to ballistics. Not the most accurate but will give you an idea. Or buy yourself the infinity suite by sierra. Very good ballistic program. Many more. You know what they say, teach a man to fish, you fed him for life.:D

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

Could someone put up a trajectory table of a commonly available bullet for the .45-70 zeroed at 150 yards. Maybe one at aprox. 300gr and another for approx a 400gr bullet.

Also how big of a deal is the loss of 200fps?

I want the short barrel for hunting in the Michigan bush. Most shots will be within 100 yards. Also for hunting pigs and bores in Florida.

I am pretty much ready to buy this thing so I just want to be sure since I don't have the money to make mistakes.

Thanks in advance.

Tom

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

I went to the remington website. It doesn't seem so bad.

Tom

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

No big deal I think stat. Its just like hitting something with a muzzleloader. And thats the tamed down loads. I love mine. I have always wanted one.

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

Hi all, long time, no see. Took a short hiatus to spend time with my daughter.

Anyway, I just picked up my Marlin 1895 in .45-70 last weekend and mounted a scope on it Monday. Going to the range on Friday to check it out. I've been wanting this thing for a long time. Was saving up Bass Pro points, got me a BPS credit card good for 10% off and they matched Wally Mart's price of $409 so I got it for around $250! heh heh The wood doesn't look as nice as yours BC but I couldn't beat that price even with a used one.

After looking at the .444, .450 and .45-70, I chose the .45-70 because of the variety of factory ammo available for it. Plus there are a lot of reloading supplies made for this cartridge. I don't think it is going anywhere for a long time. The .444 is wishy washy. Marlin can't decide to keep it or not and Winchester stopped making rifles in that cartridge. I can't seem to find ammo for the .450 but I might not be looking in the right place.

I have purchased some Remington and Winchester ammo to try out, both with 300grain bullets. Do you guys think I need a heavier bullet for Whitetail? I'm thinking it should be more than adequate.

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

In the Marlin barrel Lyman recommends velocity be kept to 1600 FPS for accuracy. Try 36.0 grains of 5744 for the 405 cast bullet. The only 405 grain cast load that I have used a lot is 13.5 grains of Unique with a federal Large rifle Magnum primer. This is a great practice and plinking load and requires no fillers or wads. This will yield 1100-1150 fps from my 22 inch barrels. Its accurate and uniform although on paper its not a likely sounding load. RE-7 is a good powder for the 45-70. For black bear or moose, the 350n grain Hornady RN is perfect at 1800 fps.

As of late I have been playing around with the 500 Grain Government RN Montana Precision cast bullet. I have loaded it to 1250 fps with both 5744 and Goex 2F. I love the NEF rifles for black powder because one screw and off comes the barrel for cleaning. I shoot the 22 inch Handi rifle and the 32 inch Buffalo Classic.

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

For those of you using cast bullets, how are they working for you? I always considered trying some, but have been so happy with the rem 405s I never got around to it. BTW, my do it all load is 52gr of 3031.

I also can't get the 22lr trajectory question off my mind. A CCI stinger gets about 1,650 fps which about the same for "warm" .45-70 loads. Given the .45-70 bullet weighs about 10 times more than a Stinger, I would think the .22lr would shoot flatter. Is this true (I was never good with physics)???
Thanks,
CE

RE: Big Bore Debate
 

I have read that the 405 grain Remington bullet will no longer be available for the reloader. The cast bullets work very well as does the above mentioned Hornady 350 GR RN