RE: Inferior Rounds
 

What's frightening is this is the future of our sport.

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

You know oldelk, the poster didn't even deserve a reply from me. You wasted 10 seconds replying to him that you can't get back. I mean if you see an ant on the ground, do you ever wonder what he thinking? No, you stomp it and walk on. Its an ant, insignificant.

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

Yes but he is the future of our sport and has to be told in a nice way that he is full of it:D

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

well, I'm not substantially older than Mr. Wizard that started this thing, but I don't agree with him regardless.

First, I have serious doubts as to whether he's ever shot a goose. I have extensively hunted geese for the past 10 years in the major flyway of the Mississippi River system in E. Arkansas. The hunting season there lasts from November until March, everday. I would venture to say I have killed well over 2,000 birds in that time.

On snow geese in Arkansas, you are allowed to use lead shot. They are a nuisance and destroy fields. The best thing to kill a goose with? #4 buckshot, out of a 10 or 12 guage.

I have seen geese at 30 yards shot with a 20 guage and not stop flying, especially with small steel. Sometimes BB, BBB, and even T won't knock 'em out of the air. Geese can take off of the ground if they have steel in them and did NOT get knocked off their feet. Geese are an amazingly though animal, and if you hunt them with 20 guages exclusively, you will miss many opportunities for dead birds when the 20's larger cousins will get you dinner.

I do not understand the "fad" of these short magnum calibers. I understand the helpfulness of having a lighter gun that employs a shorter action, but that's just a personal fit to individual hunters and shooters. And I'm not a particularly smart man, but I understand enough to know that if everything else is held equal, the same caliber will have superior ballistics out of a case with more powder.

If you think for one minute that the .270 Winchester and .30/06 Springfield are on the way out because of some "progressive" short magnums, you are just sorely mistaken. I'd rather have 2-.270 Winchesters than 1-.270 WSM, which for the money, that's about how it works.

And if you think I'm going to be giving up my 7MM Rem Mag for a SAUM, again, you are just wrong.

Live and let live dude. If you like it, use it. If you don't like it, don't use it. But don't degrade me for liking something you dislike.

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

Buckshot isn't legal in Hoosier Country, so no, I'm not refering to buckshot.

Could be, I have no experience with buck shot.

How do you figure that? Let's look at Federal's ballistics table: A 10 gauge 1.7 oz (766 grain) hollow point slug leaves the muzzle traveling at 1280 fps packing 181 ft/lbs. The 20 gauge .7 oz (328 grain) hollow point slug leaves the barrel 1680 fps and 133 ft/lbs of energy. The 20 gauge is moving 400 fps faster yet the 10 has an extra 48 ft/lbs of energy. Out at 100 yards, the 10 gauge is moving 970 fps and 104 ft/lbs of energy. On the other hand, the 20 gauge is moving at 1111 fps yet only has 58 ft/lbs of energy. The 10 gauge has almost twice as much energy. Where I hunt, knockdown power is much more critical than speed. Please, I'm begging you, don't tell me what gauge is best for where I hunt. Around here, the 10 is better than the 20. However, the 12 has them both beat, but that's a whole 'nother thread.

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

He who talks by the yard , but thinks by the inch, shall be booted by the foot. [8D]

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

Hey give Buckmaster some credit, many teenagers get all of their knowledge about guns from playing counterstrike, at least he's done a little bit of research instead of just spouting off about how the Desert Eagle and the OICW are L33T and everything else is junk.:D

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

You can tell its the off season. 5 pages of arguing with a wall.:D;)

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

Everyone else has chimed in on the troll's thread, guess I'll put my 2 cents in.....

He's a smart @$$ kid looking to pee on the hotwire just to see what happens.

Either that, or he's a shotgun Hitler, and I got a feeling marine riflemen are on their way.

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

BAHAHAHAHA! My brother's one of the counterstrike people. He thinks that because he plays video games, it's making him a better marksman. I just laugh in his face:D

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

Give me a list of states that you can only shoot buckshot.

You've just said it yourself. Buckshot has limitations. More than 40 yards and buckshot is pretty useless on deer.

If you think the 10 gauge is so much better than the 3 inch 12 gauge for geese, then get a 3 1/2 inch 12. It only goes 60 fps less than the 10 3 1/2. You can't argue with that.

If I remember correctly, on another thread you said you wouldn't use a cartridge for bear that wouldn't be considered overkill on deer. From what you said here, you would use a .243. What a nut.

The jamming is not even true bigbulls. They wouldn't be selling if that were true.

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

I'm not talking about a 20 gauge rifled slug vs. a 10 gauge rifled slug. A 20 gauge sabot has much less kick than a 10 gauge rifled slug and is far superior. A core-lokt ultra bonded sabot will send a 260 grain slug at 1900 fps and still have 1500 ft/lbs of energy at 100 yards plus it's flatter than the 10.

If you want to take a kid out goose hunting the 20 gauge is perfect. The other gauges like the 28 gauge can't take geese.

The 25 WSSM has 14% less powder than the 25-06 but it goes just as fast because the powder burns more efficiently due to the fatter case.

I never said the SAUMs were good.

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

Fort A.P. Hill in Virginia.

Well no $#%& Sherlock. Everything has limitations. You are not shooting laser beams here.

Here you are arguing about how the 30-06, 270, etc... etc... are inferior because of the less velocity they produce compared to magnums and then you say that the 12 gauge 3.5 inch is superior to a 10 gauge and it only looses 60fps and now it's OK? Whick side of the fence are you going to sit on here. 60 fps is pretty substantial in the shot gun world.

Don't sit there and try to put words into my mouth. Shooting a 150 pound deer and a 1200 pound grizzly bear are not even in the same world as far as hunting goes. No where did I even suggest a .243 would be a bear cartridge. No $#%& I would choose a rifle to hunt bears that would be considered over kill for deer.

FYI a short fat case like the WSSM's are much more succeptable to jamming than a long slender case.


Please go read the book called "THE IDIOTS GUIDE TO GUNS" and come back when you actually learn something.

I am still waiting on your list of inferior rounds oh great wise one.

Please also tell us where you get this wealth of knowledge from. Is it from your extensive in the field experience? Or is it from reading Guns and Ammo? Or is it something you conjured up all on your own?

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

This is a quote from you. Did you just mean a military installation in a state? If you meant that, I could really careless because that effects pretty much no one. From that quote of yours, you seem to be applying that there were states that wouldn't allow slugs.

Well no $#%& Sherlock. Everything has limitations. You are not shooting laser beams here.

Well duh, but some things have more limitations than others.

No, it's just asinine because the 10 gauge weighs 10 to 12 pounds and kicks more than a 12. You think that justifies the 60 fps difference?

I've got something very similar to this. Here you are arguing that the WSMs should go away, they jam, and the difference isn't that big compared to the standard cartridges but yet you have a 300 WSM.

If you didn't have so much posts I'd be able to find it.

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

Now I don't have to find that post of yours anymore. You've just said it again. Here's a quote from you on the 3rd page of this thread...

:D

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

It effects the hundreds of hunters that hunt there but since they do not matter and you are aparantly selfish enough not to care about anyone but yourself here are the counties where slughs are illegal in VA.
Goochland, Louisa, Northumberland, Prince George, Prince William, & Westmoreland.

No I am not going to go to every states hunting regulations to proove you MORE wrong than I already have. When you are wrong you are wrong.








So from that you get that I suggest that I would use a 243 on Grizzly bears?

Again you are comparing apples to oranges. If you want to quote me then referance back to why I posted that in the first place.

In other words...... What's your friggin point?

You said the flattest shooting round was the 7mmWSM and you were proven wrong by bawanajim. You said the 30-378 was over kill for deer. I said anything from the 243 on up was over kill for deer. Again, in other words please make a point here.


Aparantly you are not able to read or comprehend the text that is on your screne. Not once did I argue that any cartridge should go away including the 25 wssm. AND the WSSM is not the same cartridge as the WSM. Or did you not know this? But facts are facts. A the shorter and fatter the case becomes the more prone to jamming it becomes.


I will ask again.............
Please give us your list of inferior cartridges. You seem to know so little please show us how little you really know.

Please tell us where you get all of your information from so that we can also be as wise as you are.[8D]

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

If you ever had a use for a 10 guage, you'd know that a 3.5" 12 is not a good substitue. There is alot more to wingshooting than how much shot you can cram into a shell, such as patterning, shot strings. The 3.5" 12is a great for turkey hunting, but pretty lousy on big birds such as canadian giants- it doesn't offer much of an advantage over a 3" and has alot more recoil. The extra weight of a 10 guage makes it alot more pleasant to shoot than lighter gun in 3.5" 12.

When people complain about the weight of a gun, my response is, it makes more sense for the gun carrier to loose 2 or 3 pounds of weight than to compromise the gun by trimming it down. people who hunt in the mountains are the exception, but I don't think anyone hunts waterfowl in the hill country of the mountains.

I personally have no use for a 3.5" 12 guage.

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

It also has about 3000 - 4000 more PSI of chamber pressure as factory loaded. Loaded to the same pressures the difference is squat. Actually, when the 25-06 is loaded to the same pressures as the 25wssm the 25-06 exceeds the velocity by a substantial margin of a 100+ fps. Just like all of the larger magnums do to the short magnums.

Any other words of wisdom you want to throw out here?

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

would you please enlighten the rest of us, btw i've got a sucker that said he'd like to buy my 7mm stw, i hope its gone before he catches wind of this i have decided i'll keep my wifes model 7 in 260 rem, should make a fine squirrel gun[:-]

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

I've heard that a patched round ball out of a .50 flintlock won't kill deer anymore either. The ballistics just don't stack up well in comparison with a modern inline frontstuffer that shoots smokeless powder and space age saboted bullets. Its a good thing that people gave up on the old sparkies a long time ago as they have no place in modern day shooting.:)

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

I always knew there was a reason for keepin the littlest big game cartridge. :D

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

How am I selfish? You act like I would take buckshot away.

And you don’t need to but my whole point is why do people choose buckshot over slugs? What are its advantages over a slug? That’s right, NONE. NIL. ZIP. NADA. ZERO. I know in New York they’re illegal but I know a lot of people who would like to use them instead of slugs. Why?

I’ve already given you my point. It's overkill on deer. It has a long action and is a belted magnum. The recoil would be on the extreme side plus when I was talking about the 7mm WSM being the flattest I meant out of the WSM cartridges. No @#$% the 30-378 is flatter. Heck, I could make any caliber the flattest by necking down an elephant cartridge. I win, 50 BMG is flatter. WHOOHOO!!!! No, lets go even flatter. I win yet again. 120mm tank round.

The question is what’s your point. A .243 is in no way overkill on deer. A 30-378 does much more meat damage than a .243. It’s not even a whitetail cartridge to begin with. How many people do you know hunt whitetail with a 30-378? That’s right, NONE. NIL. ZIP. NADA. ZERO.

Yes, I knew this, but a WSM has a fatter case than a standard case or did you not know this? Wouldn’t it too be more prone to jamming? Tell me, why did you buy a 300 WSM? If I could remember right, there was a person on this thread who actually had a WSSM and wasn’t presenting bias information.


It’s on the bottom of page 3. Here it is...


It’s actually common sense. The 270 WSM replaces the .270 (Jack O Conner probably rolling in his grave right now :D), the 243 WSSM replaces the .243, the 25 WSSM replaces the .257 Roberts, and much more. Figure it out yourself.

I get it from common sense.

The 12 3 1/2 has about the same recoil as a 10. Only a little more. Benelli offers a mercury recoil reducer if it’s too much. Pattern doesn’t matter. It’s the pellets that kill the geese. Steel shot already gives a very tight pattern and it’s a little too tight. Chokes are what really determine the pattern. You want either a modified or improved cylinder choke.

Well, then you don’t have any use for a 10 gauge.

I don’t reload so the WSSM is just as good. The shorter action is also significantly stiffer, which improves accuracy. In addition to accuracy, losing 1/2" of receiver translates into other benefits: A shorter action cycles faster for quick follow-up shots and means less weight for you to pack around all day long.

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

I can only assume from reading this little diatribe that you've got LOTS of practice with follow-up shots.

And stop confusing the terms "accuracy" and "precision".

Accuracy has very little to do with the actual firearm and much more about who's shooting it and who sighted it in.

Precision is all about how consistently the firearm can hit the same thing. Accuracy means to hit what you're shooting at. Precision means to hit the same spot every time.

Again, live and let live. Oh, and I've shot deer with a 7mm Rem Mag as well as a 300 Win Mag and have done (not always, but sometimes) less damage than with a .243.

Mind you, I'm a quite good shot and I've got no problems turning a deer's head into a strawberry milk shake. .243 bullets can fragment quite easily (especially at close range, really high velocities on smaller weaker bullets) and then rip into all kinds of stuff on a deer. The 30 caliber bullets will stay together. IF you know how to shoot, you won't ruin much meat at all with a 30 caliber. You'll put a bullet in the head, neck or hit the lungs/heart and maybe tear up a front shoulder that, last time I checked, don't have much meat anyway.

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

What bullet design are you using? Ballistic tips? I suggest Nosler Partitions, they remain intact. Quit hitting the shoulder. ;)

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

no more discussion between me and you, my friend.

My daddy is not a super genius, but he's quite wise.

Once he told me:

"Son, only an idiot argues with an idiot".

So, I'm going to stop.

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

i'm fixin to go out back and argue with a fence post, anybody want to join me

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that a 7mm magnum with the same bullet design will do more damage than a .243.

I guess common sense isn't so common after all.

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

man my 222, 25-06, 270, 280 and 35 whelen AI are all obsolete? CRAP, what am i gonna do now... but danged if the 280 doesn't whack coyote as well as deer like the hand of Zues... but then again i handload :D ... those 7mm hornady 100 gr HP's at 3620 (chronographed) or the 175 Partitions at 2790 really do a no complaints job on just about everything i've ever taken a poke at with them... the Whelen AI is welllll... a helluva lotta lead at a danged good respectable velocity without a whole lotta recoil. I prefer both over the new fangled short stuff... maybe i am just old fashioned...

because really, they will all do what the chubby stubbies will do.. and MORE if i want them to... plus i can walk into just about any place across this big ole world that carries ammunition and buy rounds for just about any of the aforementioned stuff... in a number of varieties...

as another note.. i've seen more deer antlers in one place that were taken with a 243 or 308 over the last 40 years than i can count... hundreds in number... by 2 elderly gentleman, lifelong hunting buddies, one being my uncle... i've been there when a handful were shot with the 243 and helped dress and butcer a few... the damage done by that little missle put me as a young teenager in awe...

if you do some research the RSAUM's and the WSM's are not a new idea... folks like Taylor, Ackley, Keith, and the list goes on and on, knew about the benefits of short fat cartridges and their efficiencies when most of us were sucking our thumbs or not even thought of. This is plainly written in book form and free for all to view...

Personally, i'd rather be OVERGUNNED than under... there isn't a more sickly feeling than losing a wounded animal only to find it days later half eaten by critters or gone to waste... whether due to poor shot placement or just not quite enough internal damage for whatever reason...

The deadliest killer i own is my Ruger Blackhawk in 45 Colt with big heavy large meplat hardcasts at respectable velocities... i like me a BIG hole and i hate having to track :)

Jamie

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

Wow, I look around my safe and wonder how I ever got through the last 35 years of hunting. .22rf, .223, .25-20, .250-3000, .257 Roberts, .270 Win., 50 cal. Round ball shooter, 20ga., and a few 12's. Don't know how all those coyotes, deer, and small game ever fell to such inferior weaponry! Someday maybe some people will understand, it' not how much faster it goes, but how well it matches the requirements and conditions. Not every shot is at 800 yards across a flat prairie! personally. I have no need for anything that could make such a shot. I limit myself to 300 at the outside, most of the time much shorter.

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

Which will, unlike this troll, not laugh at you when you walk away, shaking your head. ;)

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

I'll keep my 300 win mag. In five years when I'm still paying 15$ a box with a 300 wsm you'll be paying 30$. Then I'll be the one laughing. I had a 270 wby mag and i got tired of paying 45 bucks a box[:@] If you want to see the future of short mags look at the weatherbys. According to federal premium .com I have more volocity and knockdown power using the same bullit.


I am a Farmanimal

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

You sound like shot gun recoil ***** to me. Obviously not a turkey hunter if your going out there with a 20 gauge with a 3" chamber, or you must like watching Toms strut right on by. In the mean time I'll be baggin' them with that useless 10 gauge.

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

Hey Buckmaster I hate to step back in this but, I am one of those none , nil , zip & nada people that do use my 30-378 for deer I also shoot woodchucks ,crows & some times an elk!! Try 124 gr. of H5010 behind 150 gr noslers. You must use a Federal 215 mag primer.But that will get you about 3870 F.P.S. Thats smokin. But you might be better suited for a red rider if the recoil scares you.
PS. If you look in the back ground you will see one of my favorite rifles.

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

Ahhh, from the mouths of babes. [&:] Always cracks me up when someone spouts stuff like this off. Shows the lack of knowledge on the subject. i too am ashamed this is the future of our sport.

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

sounds like fighting words!!! I'm not biting

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

I like other people to use magnum rounds in light wieght rifles. I am a Chiropractor by profession and need the patients. Please, buy a wsm in a light wieght rifle and an ultra mag or any larger Weatherbys. I started with a .264 win mag at 17. There seems to be something about mag performance and youth. I am a large man and handle recoil very well. I can shoot any caliber and not be bothered. I shoot a 6.5x55. Why? Nothing gets up after I knock it down. It's sedate. I stalk, which makes it hunting to me, within the effective range and knock the deer, bear, elk or whatever I'm hunting on it's butt. This is better than reading a magazine and making a decision. Why get beat when you don't have to?
This is my .02 worth
Dr Fatguy

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

Well, I can shoot a rabbit at 5 yds with my .410 and still have 95% or more edible meat. Larger guages explode rabbits that close.

And about further out shots -- there more difficult with a .410, but you know what, sometimes a sport is better when it's more difficult. I'm sure Kansas would rather face Illinois in basketball than a school for the blind...

Dynamite is more effective for fishing than most other methods, but there's no sport in that.

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

What's it to you, anyway?

I've got a Winchester Model 12 in 16 guage made in 1947 that was inherited from my grandfather. I got my first deer with that gun. It means the world to me. Extinct???

Muzzleloaders should probably be extinct too, eh? Especially those stupid flintlock deals...

Experience a little life, will you!

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

What he needs is education and experience

RE: Inferior Rounds
 

10-4.....GOOD BUDDY!