Wounded deer part II
 

So it's safe to say that most of us agree that poorly placed shots wound deer, not the caliber of gun right?

So how come so many insist that it is "unethical" to hunt deer with small caliber guns if the caliber of gun is not ultimately responsible for unrecovered wounded deer?

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

so would you hunt deer with a bb gun? No...
would you hunt deer with a .22 short? No...
would you hunt deer with a .22 LR? No...
would you hunt deer with a .222/.223? No... (If you are ethical!)
-Why? Because it is not a deer cartridge! Therefore it should be used as it is intended as a GREAT varmint round.
would you hunt deer with a .243? Yes... (Because it is a deer cartridge tried and true!)

This too be continued... Aren't you guys sick of discussing the .223 as a deer cartridge?

By the way I think it is unethical to shoot with open sights unless you have shot enough to know you are a good shot. I ALWAYS hunt with a scope, because I don't trust myself. I know there are some out there whom are good enough, but more often than not the people around me that miss, miss because they have open sights. I will not let anyone hunt on my land with open sights.... Or hunt deer with a .223.

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

I would say because even with proper placement, some calibers lack the horse power to penetrate enough or expand enough to do enough damage to make a clean kill. A good bullet with a high sectional density in 25 caliber on up has that required horse power for deer and most other big game.

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

good job prooving your point :) i think it is funny how some peaple think you have to have this one round, or call, or rifle. to hunt each game deer, elk, coyote, hog. and so on.... i feel you should use what ever is legal, that you feel comfertable with. and you trust to do the job at hand.;) the other day i took my 9 yr old son rabbit hunting and the game ranger told us that we should use a 12gage with ulta 3"mags for rabbit. lol next they will say you can not kill a deer if unless you use a 400grain super ultamag. dont you know if you blow the deer in half it is easier to carry bake to the truck:Dlol i wounder it an AT4 would be ethical? all ready cooked!
just thought i would have some fun with this post

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

by the way i use a 308win for deer,coyote,hog... it does the job very well so does my 30-30.

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

smaller calibers don't have the shock power of larger calibers leaving less room for error using smaller caliber.

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

newguy23 are you smoking crack? what is wrong with open sights? now you are saying it is unethical to use open sights! now i know where all the crap is comming from! thanks for letting me know not to listen to anything you say!

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

if i HAD to pick up a gun i have never shot before and shoot at something i would much rather use open sights then a scope. scopes can easily get knocked off sight and what not where the open sights seem to stay in the same place unless you move them.

with that said i would rather hunt with a scope because it magnifes your target and you can see if any small sticks or trees might be in you way.

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

If you carry concealed it must be pretty hard to conceal your rig with the scope and all .

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

I feel that the 243 ,6mm Rem lack the margin or error in penatratin that a 25 cal 115 or heaver have . A 243 is marginal deer rnd. IMO . I have seen it fail to penatrate far enough to humainly kill .

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sence you know all! why dont you tell the military that they they should not use the 223 because it was intended as a varment round and that is the only use for it!
i am not saying i would use a 223 for deer. but that does not mean some one could not ethically hunt deer with it.

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I dunno where you guys come up with this. I have used a .243 most of my life and I have never had the bullet not pass through the vitals of a deer or hog. Even at 300yds with a crappy core lockt. On the other side of what you said, other guys say
" oh its to fast and goes right through them so fast they dont feel it." Buwahahaha ! to tell you the truth I dont think you all know what ya'll are talking about. one says no penetration the other says to fast through them. A 25 is but a paper thickness bigger and 15 gr. heavier, Oooooo man, thats a big difference. LOL. you guys crack me up. I have killed two deer with one shot from a .243. No penetration, Buwahahahahah!

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

Slow down... I said that if you are an experienced shooter than open sights are fine... I just have found that new shooters hit their target more consistently with a scope... At 100 yards what do you think the unexperienced shooter could hit consistently with open sights... Maybe within 2 feet at best... What do you think that same shooter could do with a 7x or 9x scope, probably 6 inches (a good estimate of an accurate shot on a deer). Do you see my point?

If you were able to show me that you could hit a six inch plate at 100 yards with open sights I would have no problem calling that ethical... In my experience, most people can't. If you can kudos, seriously! I know I can't...

As for the 223, I am no military expert, but aren't they moving to something like a 6.5 mm or something... It seems like they are not that pleased with the .223 as a killing weapon. Again I am sure a 223 could kill a deer, so could a 22 long rifle, but why not use the correct weapon for the correct animal!

As for the 243, this has been proven as a deer cartridge... I think it was Outdoor life that picke their deer cartridges and it ran something like... 243, 257 roberts, 260, 7mm-08, 25-06, and 30-06, and they noted that all would be great deer rounds.

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The military does not care if they get a clean kill ,they want a round that causes massive tissue damage.they also don't use hunting rounds in there rifles.they use ss109 steel core,m855 tracer,and m193 55gr very unstable and tumble on impact to increase tissue damage ,just to name a few very different from hunting rounds.

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I think your under estimating your ability,100yrds is not that far.you should try it I think you would be surprized unless you have bad eyes limiting your ability to see the target.scopes can be a hinderence at close range on a deer as all you see is a brown blob in the scope and can tell if your on the front or rear of deer,that why I like raise scope mounts so I can drop down to iron sights and see where I'm aiming.

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

Most of us in the military would much rather have a better round than that gopher getter. Wounded men can still shoot you and that has been proven more and more as of late.

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

newguy23 ok i have thought about all of this and i think i was too hard on you. and for that i am sorry! I think you might be right i cant remember ever seeing kids at the range other than mine that where shooting with open sights. even 22s, and bb guns where scoped. maybe a lot of kids now days havent used open sights i dont know. all i know is that my son has never used a scope. he has scopes and he wants to use them but i refuse to put one on any of his guns intell he has mastered open sights. that was the way i was raised and i agree with it. but if your freinds are hunting with open sights they should be practiceing with them and they should know what distance they cant hit there target. and not shoot over that distance.

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

also i do not use a 223 for hunting deer and i am no military expert ether so i should have kept my mouth shut about that. at least i will admit that i was wrong.:)

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

hey nighthawk... No harm no foul...

I agree, when target shooting I might be able to put holes within a 12" area at maybe 75 yards or so... But when that big buck comes along and my adrenaline starts running, forget it...

Also I dont' get enough time to practice, I live in the city and travel a lot for my job. I can barely get out to hunt as much as I want. I ussually just sight in my gun and go.

Again, I am sure their are people whom shoot open sights great... I know people whom can hit a six inch plate consistently with their 1911 pistols (NOT me!). If you can wonderful, I just think you would be surprised how many people could not hit the broad side of a barn with them!

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Night Hawk-

Not to be telling you how to raise your kids (I’m only 16) but if your kid wants to use a scope I don't see why you wouldn't let him. I mean I’m BIG into the bow hunting and the thing I’m kind of comparing it to is shooting sights over instinctive shooting. I'm sorry but if I want to hunt a certain way there isn't a chance that I would let my dad make me "master" something I don't want to follow up on. I understand you want him to be raised like you were (my dad's the same way and I know all fathers are) but why not let the boy shot how he wants?? I’ve shot with a scope since I was about five with a .22, and moved up in caliber and load size since. Now I can pick quarters off at 300 with our 22.250 90%-95% of the time. But like I said guns aren't my thing, the bow is, and I’ve got 2" groups at 50 yards from lots of practice. Sorry if you take this the wrong way; I didn't mean to rub this the wrong way, but if your kid can make a clean kill with open sights or a scope does it really matter??

-Hoyt

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

The coment trying to justify the 223 as a good killer based on the military using the 223, needs to do a little research, that round was "DESIGNED TO WOUND" as the brass who was polishing his A$$ thought it was a good idea to wound one man, thereby tying up several others trying to rescue/care for the ONE who was hit. Meanwhile they aren't getting shot at by these wounded soldiers like the boys on the front lines. Over the years its proved to WORK ON PAPER,but alot of front line guys in the military blame it for a lot of U.S. casualties.

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

I live in texas and lots of people use hot 22's for deer(223, 22-250, 220 swift) and with a good bullet i.e. 55 or 60 grain partition, trophy bonded or the like will kill a deer just fine if you put a good shot on it. A guy i hunt with uses a 220 swift for everything, he even killed a nilgai bull(texas import which in some parts of texas is free ranging) with it, granted it was a neck shot but still that nilgai had to have weighed over 600 pounds. If your accurate with it and use proper bullets hot 22's are just fine for deer.

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

NVMIKE, where did u get that idea that the 223 was designed to wound. Hell i bet the 223 has killed as many people as almost any other cartride(7.62 soviet, 9mm maybe and some WWII cartridges killed more)

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yep ! were just better shots here in Texas. ;) Here in texas we come out of the womb with a daisy red rider. LOL.

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25 caliber on up ????????????
so you saying even a 25-20 is ok to hunt deer????

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I can see that this dude has never been to far from home!
As the same can be said about a scope.

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In my opinion to be a good shot with open sights takes a lot of practice (I am not talking about 10 yards, I am referring to shots at more than 75+). With a scope I can take a person whom has barely hunted and they can put the cross hairs on a target and "boom" can hit it the first time at 100 yards! That was my point... People whom aren't going to take the time to practice enough to be a good shot with open sights, should not hunt with them. You only need minimal shooting with a scope.

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

People who don't practice enough don't belong hunting period!!!!!!!!!
To much of a chance with or with out a scope of wounding & not getting a clean kill.

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

Please read this link about the 5.56x45 (.223 for you civilian types) There were decades of development in creating this caliber for military use, it is more effective than many think although there have been many issues with the caliber and the weapons designed to use it. [link]http://www.thegunzone.com/556dw.html[/link]
Basic requirements of the 5.56x45 are:
Must have at least 1080 fps @ 500 yards
Must penetrate the issued helmet and body armor @ 500 yards
Must penetrate a .135" steel plate @ 500 yards
Maintain or exceed the trajectory, accuracy, and wounding ability of the .30 cal M2 ball (30-06) fired from the M1 Grand
The military assisted in developing this round because is is lighter than the .30 cal ammo, so a troop can carry more rounds. The chance of hitting your target increases dramatically, one test showed that around 60% of troops using the 5.56 scored expert while only around 16% scored expert with the 7.62x51 (.308) Bottom line, you must hit your target to stop him. The hit rate increases if you "spray" a 20" area with a three round burst. The 5.56 can be controlled in full auto/burst mode more effectively and is light enough to carry the extra required ammo to do so. The current trend in Europe is even a smaller projectile in a shorter/fatter case, H&K is working on a 4.something size round for their handguns and rifles. Much of the world has adopted the 5.56 not just the US, it is the NATO round designated for an infantry rifle. While there has been some testing of the new 6.8 SPC FOR LIMITED CLOSE AND MEDIUM RANGE APPLICATIONS, the 5.56 is still the standard and will most likey stay the standard throughout most of my natural life for any current or new infantry rifle. Here is a link for the 6.8 SPC if interested. [link]http://www.gunblast.com/Barrett-M468.htm[/link]
I like the 6.8 SPC but realize that it will be utilized for special purposes only in the military for now, I would guess CQB/Urban warfare.

None the less if a 5.56 will penetrate .135" of steel, and an issue helmet and body armor @ 500 yards, why not a deer? Do deer have a .136" plate of steel over their vitals at birth? Why would the caliber be legal in some areas if it were so ineffective? Seems to be a lot of tree hugging bunny lovers floating around in this forum, we do not need caliber standards for deer, it would work something like this with out the standard: If you choose to use a small caliber and fail to deliver proper shot placement and your dumb A$$ looses your game, shame on you. Guess you will go get a super double mag and deliver the same poor shot placement and still not track the animinal and loose your game or you may even walk to the animinal and recover the 50% of meat that you didn't destroy. I better save up for the Barrett .50 BMG in semi-auto, may be the only weapon allowed to hunt deer in a few years if these sandled hemp shirt wearing, animinals are the people's thinking, communist hippies have their way. Soon our borders will say "welcome to the US(SR)". By the way, I never saw "deer caliber" written on any box of ammo so enlighten me please, what is it and who/what determines it. As far as penetration, broadside the deers heart is no more than 4" to 5" in it's chest cavity at most. Why would you need a caliber capiable of 35" of penetration? Oh, because many of you do not have the proper marksmanship skills to even be hunting in the first place and hit the deer right in the shoulder and expect the bullet to penetrate bone, the body cavity, then bone again and exit as a pin hole. I think you should have to pass a marksmanship test to hunt, in many countries you do. I am done with this topic, attracting too many liberals and the puke they spew from their mouth is making me ill.

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

Lot of difference between AP, ball and hunting ammo. Penetration with a 22 cal doesn't mean squat without expansion when you are looking for a quick, clean kill.

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

So does anyone think it is possible that instead of penetrating .135" of steel at 500 yards with ball ammo, that a bullet the same weight and shape could be produced to penetrate 5" of soft tissue and expand? Oh they do, no kidding.

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

:Dyou tell them usmc!

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

I love stiring up the hornet's nest!

Bottom line is this,

Guns don't wound deer, hunters do.

There are no unethical calibers (that are legal) to hunt deer with, only unethical shot placements.

I believe what's really unethical is to not practice shooting year around and show up opening day to hunt deer.

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

ditto to that!!

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

[quote]so would you hunt deer with a bb gun? No...
would you hunt deer with a .22 short? No...
would you hunt deer with a .22 LR? No...
would you hunt deer with a .222/.223? No... (If you are ethical!)
-Why? Because it is not a deer cartridge! Therefore it should be used as it is intended as a GREAT varmint round.
would you hunt deer with a .243? Yes... (Because it is a deer cartridge tried and true!)


well said! I agree

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

As i read the pgs. of post replies i really wonder how people get so opinionated! A guy says you wouldn't use a bb gun or 22 s or l to harvest a deer! i would say that a bb gun is out of its element. Now we have abit of fun! I am not a young man anymore and so being i have done some odd hunting practise. such as i have harvested 7or 8 deer with a 22 shorts while squirrel hunting. I never pass up food on the table the Lord sets in front of me! I have taken them with a 410 a 22 Hornet a 222 a 22/250 & so on. The fact is if you can make a clean shot and know your rifle, shotgun, ML or bow do it! :D

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

22 shorts? Smokepole blowing smoke up you know where!

Anyway fine I am done with this conversation...

If you guys want to hunt deer with varmint cartridges thats your choice.

By the way USMC isn't the military adopting a more potent round. Obviously they have decided that the .223 isn't as good as you make it out to be.

Anyway I will say it again. The .243 is the minimum deer cartridge... And by minimum I think it is a fine deer cartridge.

I think we are all missing the point here... the .223 is definately not an ideal deer hunting cartridge, so why hunt with it!?!? You can buy a gun chambered in a suitable deer caliber for less than $200.

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

Newguy23,

You have made it a point to say that hunting with these calibers is unethical, and not just implying but flat out saying that hunters like me who hunt deer with 22 caliber rifles are unethical hunters. It is this, and only this, that I have a problem with.

I'm not saying that everybody should go out and buy a .223, or other .22 caliber rifle to deer hunt with, but if somebody who knows how to shoot a gun wants to hunt with a .223 who has the right to say that person is unethical?

I, and others I know that hunt with .22 caliber rifles, harvest deer every year cleanly and humainly. We have a darn good track record with these calibers. The hunters I hunt with that shoot .22 caliber rifles have not wounded any more deer than the hunters that shoot the magnums. As a matter of fact, where I hunt the .22s have a much better track record than the magnums.

Now I only say the following to make a point. I do not feel that ethics is an issue here. But you take any magnum caliber and shoot a deer through the lungs. That deer basically drowns in it's own blood, which takes a few minutes. I take a 22-250 and shoot a deer in the neck and break the neck bone. That deer darn near dies instantly. Which animal do you think suffered more?

Now before everybody bashes me for being a liberal PETA so and so, I have no problems shooting a deer through the lungs. I don't think that is unethcal. I just say this because several people have made it clear that we owe it to the game we pursue to give that animal a clean and swift death. When you break a deers neck, it doesn't get much swifter than that.

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Why would a person want to hunt deer with a .224 caliber when there are so many better choices for big game? I do not see any reason for it other then eggo, it is not what we shoot somthing with that is the challange of hunting, it is getting to that point where we have that shot. I will agree that the little bitty .224s can kill cleanly but how many of the wounded deer lost to these pip squeaks would have been taken cleanly if a more inteligent choice of cartridge had been made? If deer hunting were based on how small a cartridge one used then the .22 short would be the choice for the "great" hunters we all read about. Yes .22 calibers can kill deer if all goes well, we are willing to pass any thing but a perfect shot, and the gods smile on us. You can also pound in a 12 penny nail with a screw driver but a inteligent person does not do it.

RE: Wounded deer part II
 

I guess Judson, cause they might have success in the gun. Just because they have success and are happy don't mean you are going to get the same results.

What does it matter if there is a dead deer on the ground? I choose to do most hunting with a bow. Doesn't make it unethical. Just means I have to know my limitations on shot placement and distance. I don't shoot 50 yards and I know shot placement is oh so important with a bow. Same as a 22-250. No different.