Which .40 Cal Rifle?
12-11-2004, 03:59 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2004
Location:
Posts: 1,148
Which .40 Cal Rifle?
So,
I am going on a Kodiak (Afognak Island) brown bear hunt in April and have decided I would use this as a good excuse to get myself a .40 cal rifle. So, I was wondering what model, make, and caliber guys who own them think? Right now I am leaning to .416 Remmington magnum but I would consider .416 Lott, .416 Weatherby, .458 Win Mag or others.
Savage, Winchester, Remmington, or Weatherby are all options.
I am going on a Kodiak (Afognak Island) brown bear hunt in April and have decided I would use this as a good excuse to get myself a .40 cal rifle. So, I was wondering what model, make, and caliber guys who own them think? Right now I am leaning to .416 Remmington magnum but I would consider .416 Lott, .416 Weatherby, .458 Win Mag or others.
Savage, Winchester, Remmington, or Weatherby are all options.
12-11-2004, 04:28 PM
#2
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location:
Posts: 26
RE: Which .40 Cal Rifle?
If your going to go as high as 458 cal then the 458 lott is a nice one, and you can shoot 458 winnies in it. The 45-70 with 540gr garrett hammerheads makes for quite a powerful little package too. Also has the ability to load down for nice shooting loads, which will be tough with the bigger guns.
12-11-2004, 04:54 PM
#3
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
RE: Which .40 Cal Rifle?
Alaska Magnum,
Good for you, that trip should be the real deal. All those you listed should suffice for brownie (instead of 416 Lot, I'm sure you meant 458 Lott). I haven't hunted brownies yet so the ultimate decision is yours however I have weighed the purchase of a rifle in this range. (If you are weighing ballistics, then I'd recommend you check out Barnes #3 as they do not "sandbag" their loadings for these cartridges.
After a long search and fact finding mission, I settled on a 416 Rigby in a CZ550 Safari Magnum a year ago, its huge case lets you "load it up" to near 416 Weatherby levels or shoot the standard 400gr at 2400fps. The Weatherby is the most powerful of the 416's however, the belt on that fat case limits magazine capacity, perhaps something to consider with DG. My CZ will hold 4 in the mag plus one in the pipe; while the 416 in a Weatherby holds 2 in the magazine and 1 in the pipe. A 416RemMag in a WinM70 would be nice as long as you are satisfied with 400gr. at 2400 (the original 416 Rigby velocity using cordite back in 1911, which the 416RemMag mimics in a more slender case). The nice thing about the 416's is they fly flatter and farther than most 458's and hit with as much or more energy than the 458's which some consider to be more of a "stopper gun."
That said I've been looking at 458's too; thinking of picking up a 458 Lott, Ruger and CZ make one or you can "ream out" a stock 458, BUT only if it was built on a long action --- for example a 458 in M70 would not work.
All these rifles are HEAVY, especially when you load them up, 5 rounds for my Rigby weigh half a pound. Depending on your fitness level you may want to communicate with your guide as to just how hard he is going to "work" you. If it is going to be just absolutely brutal, then something like a 338RUM in a bit lighter rifle may leave you breathing a little more easily.
A great sounding DG hunt, your "steel" should be tempered a little bit "harder" when you get back! A rite of passage.
Good for you, that trip should be the real deal. All those you listed should suffice for brownie (instead of 416 Lot, I'm sure you meant 458 Lott). I haven't hunted brownies yet so the ultimate decision is yours however I have weighed the purchase of a rifle in this range. (If you are weighing ballistics, then I'd recommend you check out Barnes #3 as they do not "sandbag" their loadings for these cartridges.
After a long search and fact finding mission, I settled on a 416 Rigby in a CZ550 Safari Magnum a year ago, its huge case lets you "load it up" to near 416 Weatherby levels or shoot the standard 400gr at 2400fps. The Weatherby is the most powerful of the 416's however, the belt on that fat case limits magazine capacity, perhaps something to consider with DG. My CZ will hold 4 in the mag plus one in the pipe; while the 416 in a Weatherby holds 2 in the magazine and 1 in the pipe. A 416RemMag in a WinM70 would be nice as long as you are satisfied with 400gr. at 2400 (the original 416 Rigby velocity using cordite back in 1911, which the 416RemMag mimics in a more slender case). The nice thing about the 416's is they fly flatter and farther than most 458's and hit with as much or more energy than the 458's which some consider to be more of a "stopper gun."
That said I've been looking at 458's too; thinking of picking up a 458 Lott, Ruger and CZ make one or you can "ream out" a stock 458, BUT only if it was built on a long action --- for example a 458 in M70 would not work.
All these rifles are HEAVY, especially when you load them up, 5 rounds for my Rigby weigh half a pound. Depending on your fitness level you may want to communicate with your guide as to just how hard he is going to "work" you. If it is going to be just absolutely brutal, then something like a 338RUM in a bit lighter rifle may leave you breathing a little more easily.
A great sounding DG hunt, your "steel" should be tempered a little bit "harder" when you get back! A rite of passage.
12-11-2004, 05:21 PM
#4
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2004
Location:
Posts: 1,148
RE: Which .40 Cal Rifle?
EKM,
No guide for me. I am a resident and drew one of the coveted tags, which is one of the reasons I am considering getting the .40 cal. With a guide, you have another guy with you who usually will carry at the least a .375 but most carry the big bores as backup. It will be just me and my buddy on an island thick with bears and alders.
So, here is the dilemma. While I would love to go to Africa one day, THAT hunt is no where on the radar, so I would like to get the most BANG for my buck per se. In other words, I would like to get a rilfe that could serve as a moose rifle, elk rifle, etc. I HATE having a gun that is only good for one thing, and would rather own two or three do-it-all types of guns than a safe full of specialists.
So, from my research it seems like the .458 Win is rather gutless out past 200 yards and drops like a mother. How does the .458 Lott (my mistake above I meant to type.416 Rigby) compare and why would be considering that if you already have a .40 caliber?
Also, why did you decide on the Rigby and not the Remmington Mag? Any idea how a .416 performs in Africa for the day when I do drop the $$$'s and go for it?
Thanks
No guide for me. I am a resident and drew one of the coveted tags, which is one of the reasons I am considering getting the .40 cal. With a guide, you have another guy with you who usually will carry at the least a .375 but most carry the big bores as backup. It will be just me and my buddy on an island thick with bears and alders.
So, here is the dilemma. While I would love to go to Africa one day, THAT hunt is no where on the radar, so I would like to get the most BANG for my buck per se. In other words, I would like to get a rilfe that could serve as a moose rifle, elk rifle, etc. I HATE having a gun that is only good for one thing, and would rather own two or three do-it-all types of guns than a safe full of specialists.
So, from my research it seems like the .458 Win is rather gutless out past 200 yards and drops like a mother. How does the .458 Lott (my mistake above I meant to type.416 Rigby) compare and why would be considering that if you already have a .40 caliber?
Also, why did you decide on the Rigby and not the Remmington Mag? Any idea how a .416 performs in Africa for the day when I do drop the $$$'s and go for it?
Thanks
12-11-2004, 05:47 PM
#5
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location:
Posts: 26
RE: Which .40 Cal Rifle?
According to the fellows at accurate reloading:
.416 400grain Max loads
Rigby=2600fps w/105gr H4350
Weth= 2660fps w/116gr Re19
Rem=2400fps w/80gr VVN 140
416 and 458 cal bullets all have low BCs, they will all "drop like a mother" past 200 yards. If your going with a 416 cal, the remington looks best to me. The other two are much more inefficient at transferring powder to bullet speed. The bear or elk wont know the difference between 2400fps and 2600fps, but you will!!
.416 400grain Max loads
Rigby=2600fps w/105gr H4350
Weth= 2660fps w/116gr Re19
Rem=2400fps w/80gr VVN 140
416 and 458 cal bullets all have low BCs, they will all "drop like a mother" past 200 yards. If your going with a 416 cal, the remington looks best to me. The other two are much more inefficient at transferring powder to bullet speed. The bear or elk wont know the difference between 2400fps and 2600fps, but you will!!
12-11-2004, 07:26 PM
#6
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 22
RE: Which .40 Cal Rifle?
Alaska Magnum,
Congeratulations on your upcoming hunt. I envy you and the opportunity.
Regarding your choice of firearms: I would suggest that you first determine the type of terrain that you will be hunting. If you expect shots beyond 200 yards, then you should be looking for a rifle that will provide good accuracy for that purpose. If the terrain is such that you will be at closer ranges, and you may need a "stopper" for an up close and personal encounter, you might want to look at the very large calibers. My son and I did a bear hunt in Saskatchewan two years ago. After the hunt we went on to Alaska for a couple of months. We spent lots of time in the back country. We carried Marlin Guide Guns in 45-70, loaded with Garrecht 540 grain hardcast bullets. Needless to say, the selection was certainly adequate for our close range hunting in Saskatchewan. The heavy loads also were suitable for stopping a big bad boy while we were fishing and hiking the back country of Alaska. And the recoil was significant, but acceptable.
All of the above being said, you need to consider recoil. I have a variety of rifles that would be suitable for a DG hunt. But my skill level drops off when I get into the larger calibers with more recoil. I have a 375 H&H Mag. that shoots comfortably, but a box in one day is enough. I have a 458 Win Mag that is enjoyable to shoot with lighter loads, but is brutal with 500 grain solids. Since I reload, I have experimented with lots of different loads. When both of my kids are out of college, I am going to Africa. So I am getting ready now for that trip.
My recommendation to you is that you find someone in your area that will let you shoot some of the big guns. I suspicion that you might find the 458 Lott or 460 Weatherby to be a little too much when you are trying to maintain good accuracy. And the prior statement by ELKampMaster regarding the weight of the gun and the ammo is very important.
Remember, hits count, misses don't. You can never miss fast enough to catch up. And the last thing you want is to wound one of those critter and have to go in the bush after it.
Good luck,
SD Shooter
Congeratulations on your upcoming hunt. I envy you and the opportunity.
Regarding your choice of firearms: I would suggest that you first determine the type of terrain that you will be hunting. If you expect shots beyond 200 yards, then you should be looking for a rifle that will provide good accuracy for that purpose. If the terrain is such that you will be at closer ranges, and you may need a "stopper" for an up close and personal encounter, you might want to look at the very large calibers. My son and I did a bear hunt in Saskatchewan two years ago. After the hunt we went on to Alaska for a couple of months. We spent lots of time in the back country. We carried Marlin Guide Guns in 45-70, loaded with Garrecht 540 grain hardcast bullets. Needless to say, the selection was certainly adequate for our close range hunting in Saskatchewan. The heavy loads also were suitable for stopping a big bad boy while we were fishing and hiking the back country of Alaska. And the recoil was significant, but acceptable.
All of the above being said, you need to consider recoil. I have a variety of rifles that would be suitable for a DG hunt. But my skill level drops off when I get into the larger calibers with more recoil. I have a 375 H&H Mag. that shoots comfortably, but a box in one day is enough. I have a 458 Win Mag that is enjoyable to shoot with lighter loads, but is brutal with 500 grain solids. Since I reload, I have experimented with lots of different loads. When both of my kids are out of college, I am going to Africa. So I am getting ready now for that trip.
My recommendation to you is that you find someone in your area that will let you shoot some of the big guns. I suspicion that you might find the 458 Lott or 460 Weatherby to be a little too much when you are trying to maintain good accuracy. And the prior statement by ELKampMaster regarding the weight of the gun and the ammo is very important.
Remember, hits count, misses don't. You can never miss fast enough to catch up. And the last thing you want is to wound one of those critter and have to go in the bush after it.
Good luck,
SD Shooter
12-11-2004, 10:22 PM
#7
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
RE: Which .40 Cal Rifle?
Alaska Magnum,
For an all around rifle that you describe I would recommend a 375 H&H or one of the 416's.
For all the nitty gritty details of the "416 Wars" go to www.accuratereloading.com and search the "Big Bores" section for "416, Rigby, and Rem" and you will hear every viewpoint of why one is better than the other, check within the last year --- it is all there.
=================
Castman,
You are painting way too wide a generalized swath with your brush!
B.C. of .546 in 416 with a Barnes X 400gr
B.C. of .526 in 458 with a Barnes X 500gr
Those are high, not low B.C.'s.
The 416's in particular, if you can shoot quite flat.
My 416 Rigby with 325gr X bullets at 2900 fps shoots flatter further than either my 30-06 or my 338WinMag and has over 6,000 pounds energy at the muzzle. All is not as it would appear with a superficial glance! (Alaska Magnum, THATS why I chose the Rigby!)
For an all around rifle that you describe I would recommend a 375 H&H or one of the 416's.
For all the nitty gritty details of the "416 Wars" go to www.accuratereloading.com and search the "Big Bores" section for "416, Rigby, and Rem" and you will hear every viewpoint of why one is better than the other, check within the last year --- it is all there.
=================
Castman,
"....416 and 458 cal bullets all have low BCs, they will all "drop like a mother" past 200 yards...."
B.C. of .546 in 416 with a Barnes X 400gr
B.C. of .526 in 458 with a Barnes X 500gr
Those are high, not low B.C.'s.
The 416's in particular, if you can shoot quite flat.
My 416 Rigby with 325gr X bullets at 2900 fps shoots flatter further than either my 30-06 or my 338WinMag and has over 6,000 pounds energy at the muzzle. All is not as it would appear with a superficial glance! (Alaska Magnum, THATS why I chose the Rigby!)
12-12-2004, 07:44 AM
#9
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location:
Posts: 26
RE: Which .40 Cal Rifle?
Looks like
Dia. Weight Desc. S.D. B.C. Cat. #
.308" 168 gr TSX BT .253 .476 30844
.308" 180 gr TSX BT .271 .552 30846
.308" 200 gr TSX FB .301 .550 30848
(Move 15 calibers up and you actually lose BC)
.458" 450 gr TSX FB .306 .488 45819
.458" 500 gr TSX FB .341 .526 45821
(Move 5 calibers up and BC doubles)
.510" 750 gr. Solid .412 1.070 510750
.510" 750 gr. Solid .412 1.070 510750A
Yes 458 cal bullets have low BCs, and with the low velocities they can be pushed, ballistics are sad.
On another note, ask yourself.
Does a gun that packs 75-85 pounds of recoil in a 10 pound rifle lead to high levels of accuracy?
Does a gun that is good for close range (possibly defense from bear or lion hellbent on having you for lunch) set up with no scope or a 1-4x scope, lead to precise shot placement at long range?
Is a setup for long range elk or plains game going to be efficient in the alaskan or african bush?
Dia. Weight Desc. S.D. B.C. Cat. #
.308" 168 gr TSX BT .253 .476 30844
.308" 180 gr TSX BT .271 .552 30846
.308" 200 gr TSX FB .301 .550 30848
(Move 15 calibers up and you actually lose BC)
.458" 450 gr TSX FB .306 .488 45819
.458" 500 gr TSX FB .341 .526 45821
(Move 5 calibers up and BC doubles)
.510" 750 gr. Solid .412 1.070 510750
.510" 750 gr. Solid .412 1.070 510750A
Yes 458 cal bullets have low BCs, and with the low velocities they can be pushed, ballistics are sad.
On another note, ask yourself.
Does a gun that packs 75-85 pounds of recoil in a 10 pound rifle lead to high levels of accuracy?
Does a gun that is good for close range (possibly defense from bear or lion hellbent on having you for lunch) set up with no scope or a 1-4x scope, lead to precise shot placement at long range?
Is a setup for long range elk or plains game going to be efficient in the alaskan or african bush?
12-12-2004, 09:59 AM
#10
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wall SD USA & Jamestown ND
Posts: 11,474
RE: Which .40 Cal Rifle?
I picked the 416 Rem Mag for that job. It was more of an accident however. I was shopping for a big rifle in a gun shop one day. Another guy had ordered the Rigby version and somehow when it came in they had sent the Remington version. I got a good buy on it and shot it for several years. One point you made was true for me too. The rifle really had no other purpose for me and spent more time getting dusty than it did hunting. No problem if a guy can afford to keep all of them but I was looking for a more gereral purpose gun. The 416 is a great choice however when you need plenty of power and a rifle that has a little range to it as well. Its just my opinion but if doing it over, I would go with the 375 H&H. Good luck on your hunt.