Use "Solids" On Everything?
03-01-2004, 05:44 PM
#11
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 105
RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
My personal experience has been that the hard cast 44 mag 240 semi wadcutter bevel base shooting around 1500fps in a ruger redhawk is more than enough for deer. I have seen it leave a very large blood trail (it was in the snow though). I have also seen it knock a good size buck off his feet. Which I have not done with any other cal..
It will lead a barrel that's for sure but I don't mind cleaning the thing. One more reason to mess with my guns.
I should add that the buck knocked off his feet was paced at 97yds. Also one of the biggest pros is that cast bullets are cheap and so I get lots of practice at the range.
It will lead a barrel that's for sure but I don't mind cleaning the thing. One more reason to mess with my guns.
I should add that the buck knocked off his feet was paced at 97yds. Also one of the biggest pros is that cast bullets are cheap and so I get lots of practice at the range.
03-01-2004, 07:30 PM
#12
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
By solids I'm talking machined monolithics or "cast" bullets that are at the absolute top of the hard cast bullets like Corbon -- the kind that slice like a hot knife through butter with no deformation.
Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM
Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM
03-01-2004, 07:33 PM
#13
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location:
Posts: 1,491
RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
On truly heavy, thick skinned, game.....penetration and lethality become nearly synomomous. The "rule of thumb"....if such a thing exist.....I believe goes something like this. Elephant and rhino....solids only. Wild bovine (in nearly all guises) first shot premium expanding, (for lung shot), backed up with all solids in the magazine or second barrel. On all other "furred" dangerous game, (great cats, bears, etc.), premium softs. For a balance of expansion and penetration. A soft will transmit shock more efficiently than any round nosed solid, and nearly any other shaped solid as well, but....only if it penetrates sufficiently to reach the vitals. There is some cross over of purpose with large flat metplats on large heavy dangerous game. (The heavier the game....as in the great bears.....the more efficiently those types of "solids" become. Because once again penetration and lethality are more closely related.) Some of the hard cast "large metplat" bullets (such as Buffalo Bore) are not true solids......as they are heat treated to upset some....but minimally. So energy transfer is trasmitted more efficiently but with as little as possible at the expense of guaranteed sufficient penetration!
And of course as was already mentioned, there are certain other instances where "solids" may be preferable. Fur bearers, medium to large calibers on small game, (ie. .38 Special kills rabbits well with no expansion......or a mid-range cast bullet load .30 caliber rifle for turkey where legal....would be but two such examples).
One other consideration in reference to the first paragraph above. With truly heavy game......elephants, rhinos, etc. Nothing fired from a human shoulder is going to overwhelm those animals with "shock" on a lung shot for instance......like a .270 Winchester does a whitetail. And nothing short of something fired with the pull of a lanyard......could. For animals that size a solid through the brain will instantly stop......and a shot through either heart or lungs will kill. But a shoulder shot elephant will die from hemorrhage and wound trauma......not by being overwhelmed by shock! On those animals lethality and penetration are one and the same!
And of course.....one other time I'd always choose a solid! When the caliber at hand is marginal for the task. A great example is the .44 Magnum in Big Bear country. The .44 Magnum with any soft point may not be certain to get enough penetration in Brown Bear territory to reach the vitals. When I carried a S&W 629 4" in Alaska I kept it loaded with 328 grain Hard Cast lead. I was not willing to gamble that I could achieve any bullet upset, (expansion), and still be certain of having sufficient penetration. Under those circumstances I compromised and settled for guaranteed penetration. The bullets I carried had demonstrated to me that they would penetrate.....period! I had shot a frozen 15" birch stump with that same .44 using 240 grain soft points. Those bullets all came apart after only 3" to 4" of penetration. The 328 grain hard cast bullets shot through the entire 15" of stump.....and were recovered about eight feet deep in the snow bank behind it. Except for the "rifling" engraved on the bullets......there was no upset. They could have been relubed, reloaded, and fired again! A .44 Magnum handgun is marginal under the best of circumstances on the great bears. And I was not willing to sacrifice penetration......for expansion!
Having said all of that.....anything on the face of the earth could be killed with a solid. But it isn't always the best choice......nor is it legal in many localities.....as was already stated as well!
Dave
P.S. As a side note......one of my "camp....and packing guns" in Alaska will be the 1895 Guide Gun SS loaded with Garrett cartridges. I would trust that rifle and load in big bear country emphatically! (As importantly.......if I have 60-80 pounds of meat, hide, or head on my back. I don't want a 10 pound rifle in my hands! Would be fine on flat surface roads and trails.....but doesn't work well at my age.....going "cross tundra"!)
And of course as was already mentioned, there are certain other instances where "solids" may be preferable. Fur bearers, medium to large calibers on small game, (ie. .38 Special kills rabbits well with no expansion......or a mid-range cast bullet load .30 caliber rifle for turkey where legal....would be but two such examples).
One other consideration in reference to the first paragraph above. With truly heavy game......elephants, rhinos, etc. Nothing fired from a human shoulder is going to overwhelm those animals with "shock" on a lung shot for instance......like a .270 Winchester does a whitetail. And nothing short of something fired with the pull of a lanyard......could. For animals that size a solid through the brain will instantly stop......and a shot through either heart or lungs will kill. But a shoulder shot elephant will die from hemorrhage and wound trauma......not by being overwhelmed by shock! On those animals lethality and penetration are one and the same!
And of course.....one other time I'd always choose a solid! When the caliber at hand is marginal for the task. A great example is the .44 Magnum in Big Bear country. The .44 Magnum with any soft point may not be certain to get enough penetration in Brown Bear territory to reach the vitals. When I carried a S&W 629 4" in Alaska I kept it loaded with 328 grain Hard Cast lead. I was not willing to gamble that I could achieve any bullet upset, (expansion), and still be certain of having sufficient penetration. Under those circumstances I compromised and settled for guaranteed penetration. The bullets I carried had demonstrated to me that they would penetrate.....period! I had shot a frozen 15" birch stump with that same .44 using 240 grain soft points. Those bullets all came apart after only 3" to 4" of penetration. The 328 grain hard cast bullets shot through the entire 15" of stump.....and were recovered about eight feet deep in the snow bank behind it. Except for the "rifling" engraved on the bullets......there was no upset. They could have been relubed, reloaded, and fired again! A .44 Magnum handgun is marginal under the best of circumstances on the great bears. And I was not willing to sacrifice penetration......for expansion!
Having said all of that.....anything on the face of the earth could be killed with a solid. But it isn't always the best choice......nor is it legal in many localities.....as was already stated as well!
Dave
P.S. As a side note......one of my "camp....and packing guns" in Alaska will be the 1895 Guide Gun SS loaded with Garrett cartridges. I would trust that rifle and load in big bear country emphatically! (As importantly.......if I have 60-80 pounds of meat, hide, or head on my back. I don't want a 10 pound rifle in my hands! Would be fine on flat surface roads and trails.....but doesn't work well at my age.....going "cross tundra"!)
03-01-2004, 07:41 PM
#14
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wall SD USA & Jamestown ND
Posts: 11,474
RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
If I am not mistaken Corbon bullets come in many sizes and hardnesses. I have never used any of them as I cast my own or buy gas checked bullets from several different sources. In checking the Corbon site there are some awfully good and expierenced hunters that us them. My quess is that they know thier stuff. Certainly better than I do. I am sure that Cooper has forgoten 10 times what I ever knew about bullets and hunting the world. I would only add that if a person does not wany to use thier bullets then they should avoid them at all costs. The opposite would then hold true for those who want to use them and have had good success with them. Seem Fair?
03-01-2004, 08:34 PM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Western Nebraska
Posts: 3,393
RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
for many years African dangerous game hunters shot mostly all solids and if in the hunt they saw a very nice dik dik they shot it with the very same solids...and it was very effective. This includes a lot of plains game of all sizes taken with solids and only because that's what was in the gun at the time.
I'd still prefer my soft points for North American animals but solids would work too. We'd see a lot more pass thrus !!!
I'd still prefer my soft points for North American animals but solids would work too. We'd see a lot more pass thrus !!!
03-02-2004, 07:24 AM
#16
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
The title of this thread should have been "Use Solids On Everything -- All The Time?"
I started this post as a follow up on JamesB's thread “45-70 in Africa”. Things had went way off topic, and since it wasn’t “my” thread and I didn’t want to spoil a pretty cool little hunting traditions discussion that was going on, I picked up over here.
---------------------------
Some observations (in recap) from this thread….
Diyj98
“Cons would be the fact that a good expanding bullet normally causes much greater tissue damage. Over penetration could also be a bid con where's there's a chance of shooting through one animal and into another.”
JagMagMan
“Except for better penetration, it's all cons!
Especially with no blood trails!”
Eldeguello
“Well, aside from the fact that what you're talking about is pretty much against all game laws in the Unioted States, the drawback is that a small diameter wound channel produces little shock, gives little or no blood trail….”
AKbound
“And of course.....one other time I'd always choose a solid! When the caliber at hand is marginal for the task.”
“Wild bovine (in nearly all guises) first shot premium expanding, (for lung shot), backed up with all solids in the magazine or second barrel.”
------------------------
What I see here is that any cartridge/bullet combination is a trade off of sorts and it’s difficult to “have it all” although some cartridges are superior to others. A re-occurring theme against solids is the issue of "pass through" and the foreseeable killing/maiming of multiple animals. Akbound is correct in that standard procedure for wild bovine (read Cape Buffalo) is to load a soft point in the chamber and solids in the magazine.
A proper Cape Buffalo rifle is capable of launching a first strike hit WITH A SOFT POINT at a Cape Buffalo, and still be able to achieve ALL the following: more energy transfer, more wound channel, more shock, AND STILL have all the penetration needed to come up under the far side hide after passing through muscle/bone/mud-hide,etc. --- this is the triflecta, winning on all counts, firing on all cylinders. The 375’s (to a lesser degree), the 416’s, handloaded 458WinMags, 458 Lott’s, and up are capable of accomplishing this triflecta on Cape Buffalo. Solids? Practically anything can shoot solids and slice through "feet" of meat, it is no sign of power of cartridge, rather it is a credit to the bullet. [Remember Bell with the 7x57 with military AP ammo -- culling off hundreds and hundreds of elephant?]
The 45-70 with the Garrett solids, “sneaks into the club” of Buffalo Hunting, but falls short IMHO because it CANNOT effectively launch the “soft point with sufficient penetration” for a sound first strike while the Buff herd is together and the possibility of a "pass through" secondary hit on an unintended animal is at it’s highest. [If you’ve seen domestic bovine (cattle) packed into the shade and fighting insects you will recognize this problem immediately]. With the 45-70 lacking the oomph to push a softpoint where it needs to go and do what it needs to do, Pearse had to use solids in his 45-70 for his “first strike” shot --- bad dog, bad! The result were two dead buff where there should have been one. It was completely foreseeable as a likely consequence of breaking the “1 soft & balance solids” rule. I would hope the same umbrage that many of you brought up for suggested use of solids here in the USA about it being “illegal” and the risk of "pass through" shots killing multiple animals would apply to your conscious decisions in Africa as well as the USA.
If ethics are of any concern at all, then consider taking the 45-70 along to Africa for plains game (that may be some long shooting for the old girl) and skip Cape Buffalo unless you have two licenses and two trophy fees and know with foresight that doing the first strike on Cape Buffalo with a solid is a no-no. Though Pearce did not have to pay for the “error” hopefully the government game scout (gov’t enforcer) collected the penalties from the PH behind the scene and slapped his hand --- bad dog, bad!
If you are going after Cape Buffalo, then follow JameB’s advice regarding whether to "stretch" a rifle’s capabilities by using solids versus buying something more capable…
My $.05
Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM
I started this post as a follow up on JamesB's thread “45-70 in Africa”. Things had went way off topic, and since it wasn’t “my” thread and I didn’t want to spoil a pretty cool little hunting traditions discussion that was going on, I picked up over here.
---------------------------
Some observations (in recap) from this thread….
Diyj98
“Cons would be the fact that a good expanding bullet normally causes much greater tissue damage. Over penetration could also be a bid con where's there's a chance of shooting through one animal and into another.”
JagMagMan
“Except for better penetration, it's all cons!
Especially with no blood trails!”
Eldeguello
“Well, aside from the fact that what you're talking about is pretty much against all game laws in the Unioted States, the drawback is that a small diameter wound channel produces little shock, gives little or no blood trail….”
AKbound
“And of course.....one other time I'd always choose a solid! When the caliber at hand is marginal for the task.”
“Wild bovine (in nearly all guises) first shot premium expanding, (for lung shot), backed up with all solids in the magazine or second barrel.”
------------------------
What I see here is that any cartridge/bullet combination is a trade off of sorts and it’s difficult to “have it all” although some cartridges are superior to others. A re-occurring theme against solids is the issue of "pass through" and the foreseeable killing/maiming of multiple animals. Akbound is correct in that standard procedure for wild bovine (read Cape Buffalo) is to load a soft point in the chamber and solids in the magazine.
A proper Cape Buffalo rifle is capable of launching a first strike hit WITH A SOFT POINT at a Cape Buffalo, and still be able to achieve ALL the following: more energy transfer, more wound channel, more shock, AND STILL have all the penetration needed to come up under the far side hide after passing through muscle/bone/mud-hide,etc. --- this is the triflecta, winning on all counts, firing on all cylinders. The 375’s (to a lesser degree), the 416’s, handloaded 458WinMags, 458 Lott’s, and up are capable of accomplishing this triflecta on Cape Buffalo. Solids? Practically anything can shoot solids and slice through "feet" of meat, it is no sign of power of cartridge, rather it is a credit to the bullet. [Remember Bell with the 7x57 with military AP ammo -- culling off hundreds and hundreds of elephant?]
The 45-70 with the Garrett solids, “sneaks into the club” of Buffalo Hunting, but falls short IMHO because it CANNOT effectively launch the “soft point with sufficient penetration” for a sound first strike while the Buff herd is together and the possibility of a "pass through" secondary hit on an unintended animal is at it’s highest. [If you’ve seen domestic bovine (cattle) packed into the shade and fighting insects you will recognize this problem immediately]. With the 45-70 lacking the oomph to push a softpoint where it needs to go and do what it needs to do, Pearse had to use solids in his 45-70 for his “first strike” shot --- bad dog, bad! The result were two dead buff where there should have been one. It was completely foreseeable as a likely consequence of breaking the “1 soft & balance solids” rule. I would hope the same umbrage that many of you brought up for suggested use of solids here in the USA about it being “illegal” and the risk of "pass through" shots killing multiple animals would apply to your conscious decisions in Africa as well as the USA.
If ethics are of any concern at all, then consider taking the 45-70 along to Africa for plains game (that may be some long shooting for the old girl) and skip Cape Buffalo unless you have two licenses and two trophy fees and know with foresight that doing the first strike on Cape Buffalo with a solid is a no-no. Though Pearce did not have to pay for the “error” hopefully the government game scout (gov’t enforcer) collected the penalties from the PH behind the scene and slapped his hand --- bad dog, bad!
If you are going after Cape Buffalo, then follow JameB’s advice regarding whether to "stretch" a rifle’s capabilities by using solids versus buying something more capable…
As far as the expense of buying a bigger rifle goes, if one needs a bigger rifle for a given application they should probably get one rather than trying to make do with something smaller. In many models the 458 and 375 don't cost much more than the standard calibers.
Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM
03-02-2004, 09:14 AM
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location:
Posts: 1,813
RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
"If" everyone started useing "solids" on "everything", two things would happen right away. Firts, there'd be a lot more wounded and lost game animials! Secondly, there'd be a LOT more wounded and dead hunters in the woods!!!!
Many places in "todays" woods you can see hunter after hunter sitting and waiting for deer ect.., the only thing that saves there lives is, that a lot of the bullets DON'T go through trees, and game animials or what ever else it hits!!!
What "i" want my bullets to do, is to expand "violently", and "just" give "full penetration"!! This is why i like Nosler Partitions so well. For the most part they do "exactly" what i want by bullets do do!!
Drilling Man
Many places in "todays" woods you can see hunter after hunter sitting and waiting for deer ect.., the only thing that saves there lives is, that a lot of the bullets DON'T go through trees, and game animials or what ever else it hits!!!
What "i" want my bullets to do, is to expand "violently", and "just" give "full penetration"!! This is why i like Nosler Partitions so well. For the most part they do "exactly" what i want by bullets do do!!
Drilling Man
03-02-2004, 09:42 AM
#18
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wall SD USA & Jamestown ND
Posts: 11,474
RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
I quess I can't test it on a cape buffalo but I wouldn't bet against a 45-70 with 350 or 400 Grain Barnes X bullets. When spring gets here I am going to test some for Penetration and expansion. Boxes of wet news papers are not real scientific but gives a good comparision test between calibers. Barnes has a couple newer X bullets for the 45-70. I have been interested in the old 45-70 for many years and have shot it a lot with both Black powdes and smokless. Sorry about getting off track on the other post but sometimes when a stone wall and a brick wall come together , its best to give it a rest. I have my opinion on the 45-70 based on a heck of a lot of shooting. I know its capabilities and limitaions and have lived with them for years. I am happy to share that info but have no intentions of starting a program to get a 45-70 in every gun case in the country. I do believe in getting a bigger gun if needed. Although I may not agree on just when that need arises.
03-03-2004, 04:25 PM
#19
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rocky Mountains, Colorado
Posts: 1,964
RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
DM,
I also like Partitions a lot, quick but contolled expansion with the back half available to drive it deep, work well on elk. If I was going for heavier thick skinned game I step up to Swift A Frames --- like partitions on steroids.
Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM
I also like Partitions a lot, quick but contolled expansion with the back half available to drive it deep, work well on elk. If I was going for heavier thick skinned game I step up to Swift A Frames --- like partitions on steroids.
Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM
03-03-2004, 04:43 PM
#20
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wall SD USA & Jamestown ND
Posts: 11,474
RE: Use "Solids" On Everything?
All very good bullets. From what I have seen I think the Barnes X bullet will outpenetrate most all other expanding bullets. I have however never had occassion to try the A Frames on any rel big game.