RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

JamesB,

I was proposing the renaming of the 45-70 be that of "450 Nitro Express 2 Inch".
This is not to be confused with the 450 Nitro Express No. 2 which was in excess of 3.25 inches of case length, a full 1.25 inches longer. Another nomer for the 45-70 could be the 450 Nitro Express Stubby.

Yep, as I mentioned (and gave credit) earlier the 45-70 does good on the Taylor TKO index and like most rifles with solids it penetrates well. It's still short on Energy and Hydrostatic Shock due to its low, low velocity (which of course is the "secret sauce") thus making even a modest distance shot a bit problematic. Good score on the first two of four elements of Killing Power though.

Now all we got to do is "magic wand" the game animals in nice real close and hopefully undisturbed --- almost like bowhunting with a rifle --- problem is these guys "bite/stomp back" and don't always die as quickly as they are supposed to.

=======================
Ethics in hunting herd animals:

Normal practice for hunting Cape Buffalo when using rifles with that have the ability to shoot either soft points or solids with equal competence is to have the soft point in the chamber and solids in the magazine. The idea is this will limit bullet "pass through" on the target animal on the first shot when the animals may be bunched together and in the process transfer the full energy of the round to the animal for a one shot-one animal kill. Then if a problem arises and a charge occurs then the solids are for the "head on - through the tough stuff, go for the Central Nervous System" shots to save the day. Meanwhile the rest of the herd has long since high tailed it safely out of the area and won't get hit.

It appears the 45-70 tends to lack the wherewithall to reliably punch a premium soft point (like a Swift A Frame) to where it needs to go and do the job it needs to do on a Cape Buffalo (or ethically they would have used it), hence the use of a solid on the first shot and then the subsequent pass through and killing of a unintended animal with the first shot solid, as Pearce unfortunately experienced first hand.

Most NA hunters are only accustomed to using expanding bullets as the use of solids is not leqal in most states for game hunting. That makes the use of solids seem like a "wonder bullet" with heretofor unheard of powers of penetration. It is nothing new really and its virtues not lost on the militaries around the world nor DG hunters in Africa for a long time, though using a solid for the first shot on herd animals has been an ethical no-no for a long time for reasons Pearce experienced. So don't let them blow your skirt up unnecessarily, a modestly powerful rifle will shoot solids through a lot of muscle. Like anything that excels in one area is usually giving it up somewhere else.

The long time killing zone for thick skinned DG has been 400 to 500 grs at 2400 to 2100 fps. Of course the 45-70 can't do either weight at either speed, so the only alternative is to go to solids for all the shots. It works but as you can see, not with out problems.

I hate to say it but the British figured all this out nearly 80 years ago (including the value of solids) [Remember Bell and the 7x57 & the steel core ammo?]. But hey, half of American capitalism and ingenuity is making old things seem as though they are new again and selling (hype the good/don't mention the bad) the public on it.

Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

Lots of old things still work fine and I don't need to be sold on it as I have been following it for 50 years. The 450 NE would be as effective now as in its Heyday. All things aside and throwing the book away, many cape buffalo were taken with the 540 grain Garret Hard cast bullet. The 45-70 will also shoot the 400 grain Barnes at 1900 + fps. I doubt that even as underpowered as you asy it is, None of the thousands of big critter felled by the 45-70 will be comming back to life any time soon. Its done what its it done and there is plenty of documentation for it. Some of the hunters on the Garret board also like the Marlin for its fast follow up shots and Magazine capacity. It was a suprise to me the first time I visited thier sight then got to talking on the different sites to people who had been using the Garret Ammo in Alska and Africa. The Marlin is also in the price range that most can afford. I am sure that those who have used it on Big DG have done thier homework. Of at least I sure would. On top of the Penetration the wound channels have been amazing in many cases bigger than many of the PH have seen. And after all this, I am still not trying to sell anyone on useing it for African hunting. However a lot of them will. That is apparent after reading the testomonies on the Garret Webb site. Of course you can and should use whatever expierence has proven to work well for you. Thats everyones right and duty.:D

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

Never mind the herd shooting risk with solids right?

Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

I didn't event that game. I believe many hunters were using solids and cast bullets long before any of us were born. By bet would be they will be useing them long after were gone as well. A lot can be done to cast bullets by redesign and playing with heat treating to get little or no expansion all the way to excellent expansion. I am going to do same expansion and penetration tests on the newer Barnes 200 and 300 grain X bullets. I also have a couple boxes of 400 grain X bullets which I can no longer find.. I did get to shoot an off spring of the 450 Nitro 3 Inch. A nieghbor when I was quite young had been stationed in Africa during world war two. After his discharge he stayed in Africa for about three years. He and a friend of his from England hunted for one of the rail road crews. At the time most of thier hunting was done with the 303 Briish and the 30-06. I used to set and listen by the hour while he reloaded shells and told Africa Hunting stories until I was afraid to even run out to the out house. I just knew some of those lions and other mean critters had followed him to south dakota. He had a 450-400 3 inch double rifle which he had mostly made himself in his Farm Blacksmith shop. The only bullets he had were also home=made with a mold that he had made. At that time he loaded it much of the time with Black powder. He also had another interesting to me at that time that he used over there for some hunting. It was an 11 MM Mauser and I think it was Italion but I am not sure anymore. He had some shells for it that were loaded with wooden bullets. I never did know the story on that. The old boy died about 5 years ago and I wish he was still around to scare the hell out of me with some of his old tales of the Bush. He could tell those stories until you almost slipped off the front of your chair.. I wish more of those old guys would get thier stories written down. We loose a lot of real first hand expierences when those guys go. My father in law was in on some of thelast big cattle drives and spent many a winter in SD and NE in line shacks. I wish I could have written down a lot of the stuff he told me. I was young then though and the past didn't sound to interesting. Well I quess I am way off subject. Have a good one and a great next hunting season. And pass those stories on down to the young guys who may not think they care. YET.;)

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

???????? !!

Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

JamesB,

I hear what you are talking about. My Great-uncle died 15 years ago, but his old trapping stories from Northern Michigan are still with me. Wish I had taken a tape recorder on those visits. God bless old hunters.

MH

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

You bet. They made hunting what it is today. Its up to us to protect it and always remember those who left it for us.

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

Huh? Since when? all the shock, hydrostatic or other wise doesnt amount to jack unless you can get the bullets into the thru the vitals. Alot of guys shooting at deer with hyper velocity varmit rounds find that out the hard way every year. No one has still answered the question on how blowing through the shoulders of not one but two cape buffalo is a bad thing. A 45-70 is like all the other big bore cartridges out there, hit the animal in the kill zone and its dead, end of story. Take a look at the stories of hunters getting killed or injured by an animal, and you'll find one over whelming fact, its the hunter that failed not the bullet or the gun.

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

Thats very true. Besides this these bullets open good wound channels. Another ingrediant of a sure kill. The shape of the bullet has an affect as well. You can't argue with the fact that they were both very Dead. It is really the fault of the PH for giving the OK without being sure of the background. Which he admitted and there was no charge for the animal. Of course the man pulling the trigger should share the wrap. A friend of mine killed two Bison with one shot on a SD hunt. with a 45-70 with the 350 grain RN. They made him pay for both animals which I think he could have beat the wrap if he had wanted to fight it. Here again his guide told him to shoot even though my friend warned about the second critter. He lucked out and found a buyer for the second animals meat.