45-70 in Africa.
 

Some of you might have read this from the March issue of Rifle Magazine. For anyone has has any doubt about the 45-70's ability to take big tough critters. Brian Pearse took the Marlin 45-70 to Africa and took a couple of Cape Buffalo.

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

Given the choices in calibers for African plains game and dangerous game, is that the gun you would choose?

Seriously.....who would choose a .45-70 over a .375 H&H or a .416 Rem Mag?

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

Since Ive have one, yes Id take it with and use it on dangerous game. It penetrated both the shoulders on 2 buffalo, how much better can it get.

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

rigt now I'm building a .404 Jeffery on a MRC 1999 action and a .375 H&H on a magnum mauser action.....

meet you in Africa for Cape Buffalo...bring your .45-70 and put your money where your mouth is!!!

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

If I ever went back to africa, I'd take my .45-70, but I certainly wouldn't take it on my first trip acrossed the pond...I've got too many other "safari cartridge" rifles that I have no real need for that are waiting to go over, I'd at least have to take my .416Rigby once before taking a .45-70.

I'd definately trust a .45-70 to hunt cape buffalo, I don't think I'd take one on a rhino or Elephant hunt though, I'd probably take my Marlin Cowboy before I took my Marlin Guide gun, but I can see advantages of either, but probably take the Cowboy just for the increased long range accuracy and twice the capacity.

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

I am sure I won't be going.

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

by those that have "been there and done that" the .458 Win Mag is considered insufficient...........

The .45-70 is a clear symptom of a "wannabe"

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

A hunting club member I know shoots the 45-70 exclusively for Moose. He uses a Browning B78 and claims all shots are front shoulders only. He handloads 500 gr. hard cast bullets and over 10 years has only shot on Bull that the bullet didn't completely penetrate and exit.

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

Vapodog,

I say if they want to "play" with their 45-70's in Africa for DG --- let them. Either they won't ever go, or they'll take the cheapy Plains game trip and pop some antelope and now claim they've "done it", or they'll find the 45-70 is not a legal DG cartridge in most the countries (I wonder why?), or the PH's won't take them out for DG armed with a 45-70, or eventually the process of "natural selection" will eventually take care of matters.

Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

Elkamp,

Well said.

I am laughing over your remark, "natural selection process." What I imagined was a cape buffalo standing over a wet spot in the sand, with nothing left except a belt buckle, one boot heel, and a mangled 45-70.;)

MH

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

I apoligize for posting this artical and tremble in the presence of those who know every damn thing there is to know and proudly claim me a stupid know nothing imbasol not elgable to be in thier presence. I will keep my garbage to myself and bow low before the mighty 460 Weatherby. I Will stick to cottontail hunting with mt lowly 45-70.. Man I hope someday I will be as smart as some of you. Never happen though, I am already to old.

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

Hey James B I know how you feel but in posting there is always a risk. I wonder why African hunters think we don't have "big game" here. Ever hear of a Buffalo or Grizzle bear or Moose....etc. Some of the pigs here in Nevada go over 500 lbs and are tough pot lickers I'm telling you. If we could only talk about the 375 H&H and bigger what fun would that be. I find it more interesting that Bill Ruger (I think) took all that African big game with a 44 rem mag handgun. Condesention is for weak minds with a vocabulary.

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

I won't say that the .45-70 is a good choice for africa, but I won't say that a .243win is a good choice for moose, nor a .308win a good choice for black bear-but they've both been used for their respective game for years.

Ernst Hemmingway used a .30-06 back in 1936 over in Africa, for lions, buffalo (I haven't been able to find out if they were capes or water B's), and rhinos, Teddy Roosevelt also used a springfield on a nine month safari back in 1909-mostly for varied plains game and lion, both of which are well documented historically-you won't convince me that the .30-06 is a good choice for an african hunting round, but it's been used successfully.

There are now factory +P loads available for the .45-70 that push it to 3500ft.lbs., and I've seen reloading data that would push it nearer to 4000ft.lbs. (although I've never had reason to load it in any of my .45-70's.). Teddy Roosevelt also used the historic .405Winchester in the Winchester Model-1895 for many cape buffalo, the .405win pushed a bullet to 3300ft.lbs., so why is a .411" bullet at 3300ft.lbs. enough when a .458" bullet at 3300ft.lbs. isn't?

I've worked with American bison all of my life and hunted them a good deal as well. I won't say that bison are as tough as C.B.'s, even my experience can easily defeat that notion, however, mature bison can often outweigh mature C.B.'s by 15-25%, and I've successfully hunted them with a .44mag revolver, and I've seen countless prairie bison over the last 20yrs or so (you get paid by the gov't to do nothing more than feed them and maintain herd numbers) fall to .30WCF's. C.B.'s are tough, but they aren't immortal...you've even got a documented account in front of you that proves the .45-70 has more than enough penetration to kill two C.B.'s consecutively, why fight it?

Again, I won't say that it's a good choice, but it wouldn't necessarily be a terrible one...like I said, I'd never take it on my first hunting trip acrossed the pond (I've been over twice for photography "hunts" and as a photographer for two hunts my uncles went on-it's a lot cheaper to take snapshots than gunshots), but might consider it if I were to go back (BTW, my first hunting trip should be within two years=graduation present from my grandparents). A .223rem will kill deer if you place it right, but it won't kill by hydrostatic shock, so people favor something larger that will "stop them in their tracks", you're not going to kill a C.B. by hydrostatic shock from one shot at least-even if you're using a .458Lott, they mostly die from hemorhage or massive trauma, which the .45-70 can provide.

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

JamesB,

I've been following this one a little off and on and then responded today without reviewing who started the post, how what I wrote might "hit" others further back in the thread -- it was to Vapodog only. When I saw your response above and then went back and read my post and then followed the thread backwards to where you started it and I can see that it looked a lot like a personal attack on you.

We have been kicking this around plenty over in the African Hunting Section of www.accuratereloading.com and though I believe the bulk of what I mentioned is accurate for this NA dominated forum, I have edited my post and stripped out most of what should have been the offensive "he's talking about ME" language.

What remains of the earlier post is still directed to Vapodog. Sorry for what I have to admit had the APPEARANCE of a very personal attack, THAT was not the intent. While we are frequently at opposite ends of viewpoint; however, I respect your age, long experience and level headed responses through all these months.

BTW, the 45-70 with solids seems to be giving the "ole 45-70" even newer and stronger legs than what it had before -- pretty amazing for a 125 year old cartridge. I had a 45-70 in a Siamese Mauser, so one could "load it up" stout as the case could handle --- it was "okay" --- sold it and put the cash towards the acquisition of a 416 Rigby.

Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

I got a little huffy there sorry about that. I have not been everywhere and done everything but I have been in this sport for many years and I don't take to being talked down to. As someone said above any cartridge that will completly penetrate two Cape buffalo is hardly a minimal cartridge. I thought the artical was interesting and I know that many here are interested in the old 45-70. It was for them that I posted the artical which can be found in the March 2004 issue of Rifle magazine. The American Bison was nearly wiped off the face of the earth with the black powder loads of the 45-70. With the new Garret and Corbon loads it is a formidable weapon in the hands of a decent shot. On paper it does not stack up to some of the super magnums but with bullets up to 550 grains and velocity to 2000 fps, there isen't much in NA or Africa that will can't be cleanly killed with this rifle. The Ruger number one is a fine rifle that will squezz the last drop of Velocity from this cartridge. However the above loads work well through the Marlin and the Chamber pressures are listed in the artical as well. 28000-30000 was the cup for the corbon 405 penetrater. from the marlin barrel it clocked 1800 fps.

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

I also read the article, at the beginning of the hunt the PH was dubious about the choice of cartridge but after several kills started to change his mind after seeing its performance and the discretion of the shooter. Are there other cartridges better suited for an African safari, sure there are, but are they required to cleanly harvest an animal, no. Besides it is my understanding that in the majority of countries in question the minimum caliber is .375.

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

Jamesb ...I read the article and it was pretty impressive... very maligned cartridge in todays world of mighty shoulder thumpers aka field artillery but nevertheless a very effective cartridge when used within its restraints... I have seen some game hit with a 45/70 Deer and Elk and they fold on the spot . Can't say the same for these Hypervelocity supermagnums that everyone uses. Brian Pearce proved the worth of the 45/70 albeit not against Elephant but against the game(Plains game and Cape Buffalo) he hunted it did very well. Anyone not agreeing send him a note c/o Rifle magazine.

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

I would have said go for it. But last year at my gun range, I met a seasoned fella, who had all these scars. Said he shot with his 375 HH at a cape buff and didn't get a second shot off. Said his PH kinda abandoned him but came back a few seconds later with a few natives, and was able to shoot and spook the bull off. It was a very humbling conversation. Said he missed 3 months of work over that dissaster. I don't know why, but I made up my mind right then that a 460Weatherby would be my gun if going after Cape Buff. For some reason seriously, I just don't see the Cape as a fun animal to hunt. There is nothing graceful or beutiful about him. Kinda discusting looking when you get close to a dead one. Its not that I am scared. I am sure it would get my heart pounding. My dream hunt is to go to Kodiak with a bow. With good backup of course.

But shoot, you guys go ahead and take the 45-70 and come back to tell us how it did on the cape. Ain't my skin.

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

FWIW,

When done right and everything goes right it, killing a Cape Buffalo is not supposed to be substantially more difficult than killing a big "bossy cow" AS LONG AS they are undisturbed when you pop them and you pop them right. Violate either of those two conditions and the "bossy cow" goes away and is replaced with something you don't want to see.

The problem that arises for many is that Cape Buffalo are herd animals and there are lots of eyes and ears to detect you, so after a long stalk the bull you want may not show himself in the open except on the far side of the herd and then you could be looking at a "longish" shot for a 45-70 and there you are in a far away land, $15,000 poorer -- the bull is there (undisturbed) -- you are there -- no shot -- you stalk some more -- cows get wind of you or see you -- and they AND your bull are gone. With a 375 or 416 or 458Lott you just reach out and pop him while he's undisturbed right where he's at -- opportunity fulfilled and distance buys some safety. [I am NOT talking 250 yard shooting here.]

Now to the other extreme -- a "jackpot" scenario --- a close, but disturbed Cape Buffalo Bull and complicated by the fact that there is just a "small" chance your "in the field shooting" may not quite measure up to your "always perfect internet shooting". It is a plum good time to have BOTH "The Big Four" of killing power AND some good shooting on your part -- a shortage of either could make for a bad day. Kind of like an engine not firing on all its cylinders -- might run, might get you there, but ain't reliable nor predictable.

Once you've done your job placing a bullet (maybe only two since it's close) the rest will play out according to the "killing power" of what you chose to bring to the dance --- first TKO INDEX (large frontal area + plus reasonable performance), PENETRATION (solids out of anything tend penetrate amazingly well [per the 45-70 article]), ENERGY (5000 to 6000 pounds), and HYDROSTATIC SHOCK (over 2,100 fps).

IMHO the 45-70 does commendably well on the first two components of killing power; however, its fairly weak on the second two forcing you to pass on shots others would take successfully and easily. Dropping to sub-458WinMag velocities to achieve penetration (still don't buy that one) leaves you short on Energy and Hydrostatic shock.

Personally, if I'm going to be out $15,000 and only have a 7 to 10 days to get it all done, and am going to be facing something that can take my life (easily) then I want to be able to shoot 'em close or shoot 'em medium range with something as close as I can get to a managable version of the proverbial "Hammer of Thor". The rifle and myself will be firing on "all cylinders" and with no fundamental compromises.

Two other things,

One, while I want a good PH, experienced, caring, and heavily armed. With that said ---- I put NO reliance on him saving me from anything in a jackpot situation, for that I will count only on myself and the choices I bring with me ---- if help comes fine, but I'm not banking my hide on it.

Two, Americans seem to be "media susceptible".... they will put their trust in a magazine article over doing their own due diligence by talking with folks that have "been there" and "done that" multiple times and ask ones own questions probing the opinion giver for the "rest of the story" and the full set of trade offs that were involved with no commercial benefit at play. In my plans, I will count on the latter. Check out www.accuratereloading.com. My $.02

Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

I must comment on this also. If a person reads, I don't care what you read. Gun magazine, news papers, Medical books, it matters not. Reading can teach us many times more that we can ever have time to expierence on our own. That is one thing that is supposed to set us apart from the other animals. Several times I have seen dirt kicked in the faces of people on these forums for conveying things they read or studied such as self defense methods or this artical. Someone will say You can't save your life by reading a book. Or only expierence can teach you something. Well I sure hope my doctors have read some books and learned from mistakes and not kill me just for training.I don't know about all people but when I read something and take an interest in it, I am not about to take one persons word for what works and what don't. Anyone with half a brain is going to research the hell out of a hunt before they lay out that kind of cash. The Artical in question left no doubt that not just anyone can pick up a 45-70 and go on Safari. Pierce has been on many and used in Africa everything from the 17 HMR to the 460 Weatherby. I am sure that just because the hunter BELL killed 2000 elephants with the 757 mauser that most people even with a dim light upstairs would not attempt to duplicate that feat as explained in the old Hornady manual. Give a little credit to some of use who read about that kind of hunting. I never even hinted that the 45-70 is a great DG gun. In the hands Of pierce who was told by the PH that he was a good shot and had already seen him take Zebra and the other big antelope. He had already seen him shoot and saw the penetration of his loads. Then and only then did he ok the rifle for Cape buffalo. And they did have a hard time getting a shot and stalked him three of four times to get an open shot. I will most likely never get a chance to go back there to hunt but I will continue to read and who knows? If I do I will take a 416 Rem mag which I have a lot of hours in on. And yes I may take a 45-70 along. I have been shooting them for thirty years and know pretty much how they work.

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

Oh gheez take a pill, you still havent answered my question about how the much penetration you need to kill a buffalo. The bullet went thru 2 of them, like I said before what more could you ask. You guys are starting to sound like Graig (needs a freaking magnum) Boddington.

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

Hmmmmm,

I knew that Bell had killed just over a 1000 elephant, I hadn't heard he was clear up to 2000 head -- that guy must be getting really old by now and must also be really rich as well to have "pushed up" his tally in today's expensive elephant hunting market.

Bell started out with shooting all number of rifles, including in the later years his favorite the 7x57 with full metal solids. Of course at this point, he had established himself as one of the best shots in all of Africa, and after the first 500 elephant he was a bloody bloomin' EXPERT in how to take them down (practice makes perfect). Today's relative novices (with only 0,1,2,3, .... or even 20 elephants to their credit) who might want to copy him will never have the same depth of experience Bell acquired and especially on such unsophisticated, undisturbed, naive game --- his personal best being 19 bulls in one day (no reference given as to what he used). This tidying up of the details might just make a "minor" difference in the telling of the "BELL" story when applying the assumptions to this century's hunters and their respective choice of weapons.

For your amusement, I copied a small handful of signature lines from the African Hunting forum for your review, these boys (having been there and done it many times) have a little different viewpoint versus NA; you may find the last one the most entertaining. :)

*** "In nature there are neither rewards or punishments - but there are consequences"

*** "Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun."

*** "When you follow your buff into the thornbush, it is unlikely you’ll find comfort in repeating to yourself, “Well, Bell killed elephants with a 7x57!"


Good Luck and Good Hunting

EKM

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

Hi JamesB,

You forgot to mention that before Bell went to the "big" .275 Rigby, (aka. 7X57 Mauser), he used the smaller still .256 Mannlicher with fairly regular success. I guess after a few instances of "close calls" he called it quits with the "little" .256 and jumped to the 7mm's bigger 175 grain bullet. Which penetrated even better than the .256's had. (That ought to stir a few pots!;))

Okay........now before a bunch of you guys jump all over me. I'd like an opportunity to say a few other things. One.....this forum is for the expressed purpose of "fellow hunters" getting together to share information and ideas. (Which we do.) Two.....as was already pointed out numerous times.....in numerous threads, posts, etc. we don't always have to reach the same conclusions. (But I do believe it is very important that we "add footnotes"......so to speak.......to clarify issues for some of the newer hunters that visit this site.) Three......I think most of us agree that many different weapons can work when they are in the right hands. And therein lies the crux of the problem! They don't always end up in the right hands! And because of that....we see bad results in the field because of misuse, poor judgement, and inexperience!

Sometimes we should add qualifiers simply because we don't "know the audience" we are addressing. But sometimes I think, generally speaking, as a group we tend to be quick to "jump on" each other about some of these things.....without asking for a clarification either! (The only good thing to come of most of those incidents is that we generally recognize it after the fact......and resolve those differences.)

I guess in the end.....human nature being what it is......that isn't likely to change much! So let me add one other note....if I may. When, (notice I didn't say if, because I know I have, will, and do), I do this to one of you guys......in addition to the apology I offer then. Be aware that I am not always conscious that I've done it........frequently.......until after the fact....when I'm going back again to reread the entire thread again. And it then becomes blatantly apparent!

Oh heck......what did I just say? Now I'm starting to sound like one of them psychooloologists......psiychologysts....psyscholl lloogoolg.....oh s**t. You know what I mean! Just go ahead and jump on me......and get it over with!;)

Dave

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

Buckshot,

Read upstream and you'll find the answer to your question, "killing power" does not live on penetration alone, especially when the game may decide to dance on you before it dies. The prohibition on solids by many states for big game hunting is attibutable to the problem of wounding/killing of multiple animals (even with modest cartridges) and the fact they do not transfer their energy particularly well.

I really would encourage the two of you to go over together and get out of the fluff and into the bush and give it a go and keep track of each others comfort levels as you approach the black.
---------------------------------------------------------

AK,

You were doing pretty good there for the first 80%....

Good Luck and Good Hunting,

EKM

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

In my first old Hornady Manual they said he killed 2000 elephants but who knows if they were even counting. If they did they probably wrote it down and I quess you can't believe anything you read regardless of who wrote it. Any further articals I might find will be mentioned only by the name of the Magazine and the month. Although I am not apt to make the same blunder again. Now I have got to go back and read it all again and see if I can find where I recommended or even suggested that anyone take a copy of that magazine and an old 45-70 and tiptoe through the elephant grass looking for a sabertooth Buffalo. Here is to a 460 Weatherby Ackley approved for everone.:D

Now nobody will be undergunned.

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

I'm not going to get into the 45-70 effectiveness on dangerous game debate since I have no "Africa" experiance at all, but I would like to ask a queation though.

If the 375 H&H is considered the required minimum in most African hunts then how do hunters get away with hunting cape buffalo with revolvers in 44 mag, 454 Casull, 480 Ruger, 475 Linnebaugh, 500 S&W and the such?

Do they just have big gonads and more money than they know what to do with? Or is it just for publicity?

I think I would opt for a 45-70 over any of the revolver cartriges available.

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

I think the laws vary from country to country. I am sure that many of these animals are killed on game farms. I have read of people doing it with the big handguns but I don't know if some countries allow it or not. It has been done though. Someone who is an excellent shot can do a lot with any gun that has suffician power to get to the vitals. I am with you though. If I had to try it would be with a 45-70 as apposed to a handgun. Some of the big handguns have the power But I for one am no longer profiscient enough to try it. Chicken too:D

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

There was an article in outdoor life/F&S awhile back about bowhunting for elephants. The guy made a bad shot and the story didn't turn out too well for the hunters. A bad shot can be made with any big magnum and still have disasterous results.

I'll never have the priviledge of hunting in Africa, and I'm not a big fan of big magnums, but if I were given the chance to hunt something that not only has the potential to stomp me into paste but the inclination to, I'll be using the biggest artillery that I can shoulder.

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

Briman You hit it right on your first part. A weapon with enough power to get to the vitals in the hands of someone who can accomplish that task is all it takes and it will work every time. DG has been hit with weapons a lot bigger than the 45-70 and still stomped or ate the hunter. It always comes back to shot placement. If there was a sure thing for DG that worked perfect every time then no game would be dangerous. As I said before I would take a 416 Remington magnum because I am very well aquanted with that rifle. The only point I started to make before the whips and chains came out is that a rifle that can shoot through two Cape Buffalo has the ability to take some big tough critters. I will stand by that statement to the end . Put away the rubber hoses and stuff.:D

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

To all of you guys that have been on this forum......

You know by now that I respect your opinions, (and especially your experience), even when we have not always agreed on every detail! Frequently that is because we have all had "slightly differing" experiences.

And you'll should also know by now......that I sometimes have a "slightly twisted" sense of humor! (I'd certainly hope that you've recognized it by now.) And I occasionally can't help myself.....and it slips out! But some of life's circumstances have taught me that if I don't occasionally "take it on the light".......I'd take the leap off a building instead!

This place offers me that respite! I'd like to think it does likewise for a few others.:D

Dave

P.S. I take my hunting seriously. But when "we're around the campfire"...(like here)....it's time to enjoy life's more subtle pleasures!;)

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

JamesB

Regarding hoses and chains....

You actually included this additional "all comers" line as part of your first post and it is not being mentioned in your "replay of events post" just above....

"For anyone" .... I think that would include someone like me and others.
".... any doubt...." I think that would include opposing viewpoints.

Especially since we are talking about a game animal nick-named "Black Death"

For standard everyday use by ordinary citizens for taking Cape Buffalo (not doing "stunt" work), I have some serious doubts about promoting (directly or indirectly) the use of 45-70's for such a potentially life altering task.

On the other hand, if this is a "sing the praises of the 45-70" party/thread with opposing views not welcome, then I have made a mistake.

Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

I quess if you think the 45-70 will not take big tough game then I quess it won't. Just because its already done it countless times don't
make it so. No way in hell did I recommend it for this task and never even hinted that is was the ideal weapon. It was done it is over and certainly anyone who goes there after the mighty black death can use anything they want if its legal. In this case the guy chose the 45-70, it was legal and it did the job. I have nothing further to say on the matter. Much to the delight of many of you.

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

Actually, he killed two buff with ONE SHOT! The bullet, a 400-grain solid, went through both shouilders of a bull, then both shoulders of a cow that was standing about 10 yards away from the bull, and both died! I don't believe a .458 Win. or a .416 Rigby would have shown any more penetration than that.

I beieve there is a "velocity window", between 1500 and 2000 FPS or thereabouts, where a bullet like the ones Pearse was using in his .45/70 will out-penetrate any slower OR FASTER bullets of like construction!

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

The minimum caliber requirement for African hunting is different in different countries.

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

Mr. Pearse's professional hunter also had these doubts - before he witnessed what the load Pearce was shooting in his .45/70 could do! He had previously seen how come of the 300-grain .45/70 softpoint ammo worked -NOT!!-, and had to be convinced that Pearse's ammo made the .45/70 an different propopsition entirely!

It is the bulet, correctly designed for the job at hand and propelled at an effective velocity level, that determines if a given rifle/cartridge combination is going to perform acceptably on any particular type of game animal, AND NOT THE SIZE, SHAPE, OR AMOUNT OF POWDERcontained in the case!!

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

I look forward to witnessing the total re-armament of the African PH community and their clients as they abandon their over gunned rifles in exchange for the new 45-70 wonderguns loaded with the new miracle bullets.

Ultimately the actions of the thousands who "actually play the game" will tell the tale and will speak louder than words or articles.

Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

Edgequello. You are absolulely right.If they had hung the word Magnum on the end of the 45-70, then it would be up to the task. The truth is that nothing is going to still be standing after a GOOD hit from a 405 grain bullet at around 1900fps. It matters not what the bullet is fired from. I believe the wound channels were also larger than those delievered by larger guns when they tested in that area. I would have to read the article again. But your main point is so often overlooked. Its the bullet that does the work, not what its fired from. You can't ask much more of a bullet than to shoot through two Cape buffalo. Not only will it penetrate but it created a very large wound channel.

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

45-70 Magnum -- don't quite "ring" right. Since it is aspiring to African fame and case capacities and shapes aren't important; how about .450 Nitro Express 2 inch? It already has got the flange and everything, I'd expect there would be a large surge in double rifles loaded for such a cartridge -- stand back.

:D:D:D:D:D

Good Luck and Good Hunting,
EKM

RE: 45-70 in Africa.
 

Another good old cartridge from the Black Powder Age. The 45-70 does stack up fairly well in the Taylor KO values I looked up a few that we have mented here. The 458 Win Mag with its 500 grain bullet at 2200 pfs has a value of 71. The 416 Rigby with its 400 grain bullet has a value of 57. The 374 H&H with its 300 grain loading has a value of 40. The 45-70 with its 540-550 grain Garret. is 54. Anyone interested in more info on the 45-70 can go to the Garret Cartidge webb site and read the stories of quite a few Cape buffalo. Grizzly and Eland taken with the Garret loads in 45-70 and 44 Magmum. The big Weatherby Magnum cartridges offer some real high KO values.